Is a tax system that 95% of Americans don't understand, have to pay someone to do their taxes and even experts disagree about the rules of fair?

[RingOfFire]

ALTOGEHER THERE IS A TOTAL OF ABOUT ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND PAGES AND OVER 10 MILLION WORDS IN THE INCOME TAX CODE AND IT IS STILL GROWING GEOMETRICALLY!

INSANITY AND COMPLETELY UNAMERICAN!

1. The Internal Revenue Code (Statutes Only)
This is the literal law (Title 26 of the U. S. Code).

Official PDF: Approximately 6,871 pages when downloaded from official government sources.
Printed Books: The 2026 edition published by Thomson Reuters is listed at 4,226 pages.
Concise Estimates: Some analysts argue that if you remove table of contents, historical notes, and obsolete sections, the "core" current code is roughly 2,600 to 4,000 pages.
2. Statutes and Regulations
Because the IRS must write rules to implement the laws, the total length increases significantly when adding the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR).

Word Count: These combined documents reached approximately 10 million words by 2024.
Page Equivalent: Tax regulations alone (through April 2024) comprise approximately 17,472 pages across 22 volumes.

3. The Full "Tax Reporter" (With Guidance & Case Law)
For practitioners, "the code" often refers to comprehensive reference sets like the CCH Standard Federal Tax Reporter, which includes statutes, regulations, revenue rulings, and court cases. [16]

Total Length: Approximately 70,000 to 75,000 pages.
Growth: This figure has ballooned from roughly 400 pages in 1913 to over 74,000 pages today.

NO! Scrap the entire income tax system and implement a flat tax where everyone pays the same percentage of tax! The only reason such a convoluted system exists is government corruption!

YES! Clearly it is constitutional for politicians to manipulate the tax code for their own corrupt purposes and make it so complicated and convoluted that no one can possibly understand it let alone get it right!

[FunkyMonkee]

There's no law that says we HAVE to pay taxes! The Constitution says taxes are to be paid VOLUNTARILY!

[RingOfFire]

I don't recommend asserting your constitutional rights on this one. It has never worked out well for those who tried it.

[FunkyMonkee]

I know of a couple former IRS people that did it once they found out and they skated by.

[RingOfFire]

I'll split this in parts because it's too long...

The Irwin Shiff case is probably the most famous and I remember it. He died in prison. But there plenty of others too. Definitely not recommended.

=====
* Irwin Shiff: One of the most famous cases involving a man who challenged the constitutionality of federal income taxes and was prosecuted is that of was a prominent figure in the "tax protester" movement who famously stopped paying federal income taxes in 1974, arguing they were unconstitutional. His defiance led to multiple high-profile legal battles and significant prison time:

* Core Argument: Schiff claimed the federal income tax was unconstitutional and that the government had no authority to compel citizens to pay it. He authored several books on the subject, including The Social Security Swindle and The Federal Mafia: How It Illegally Imposes and Unlawfully Collects Income Taxes.

* Prosecution and Sentencing: Throughout his life, Shiff spent roughly 17 years in prison due to various convictions for tax evasion and related crimes. He was even famously held in contempt of court for refusing to stop selling his books, which the government argued were promotional materials for illegal tax-evasion schemes.

* Legacy: Schiff died in federal prison in 2015 at the age of 87. His case remains a primary example of the government’s refusal to accept constitutional "tax protester" arguments as a valid legal defense.

[RingOfFire]

## Other Notable Cases
Several other individuals have used similar constitutional arguments and faced prosecution:

* John L. Cheek: An airline pilot whose case, Cheek v. United States (1991), reached the Supreme Court. Cheek argued he didn't "willfully" violate the law because he sincerely believed the tax system was unconstitutional. While the Court ruled that a "good-faith misunderstanding" of the law could negate willfulness, it explicitly stated that a belief that the law is unconstitutional is not a valid defense.

* Wesley Snipes: The actor was famously convicted in 2008 for failing to file tax returns. While his defense largely relied on the "Section 861" argument (claiming only certain types of income are taxable), the case is often linked to constitutional tax protest because he worked with advisors who espoused the idea that the IRS lacks legitimate authority.

* William J. Benson: Author of The Law That Never Was, Benson argued the 16th Amendment (which allows for income tax) was never properly ratified. He was later convicted of tax evasion and fraud.

The IRS maintains a detailed guide on [The Truth About Frivolous Tax Arguments] (https://www. irs. gov/privacy-disclosure/the-truth-about-frivolous-tax-arguments-section-i-d-to-e) to warn taxpayers that these constitutional claims have been consistently rejected by federal courts.

[FunkyMonkee]

www.youtube.com/watch

[RingOfFire]

I'm not saying that the taxes are morally or ethically acceptable, or even that they are constitutional. I think the entire tax system is a corrupt scam on the American people. But what I am saying is that trying to get out of paying your taxes using this argument has failed over and over again and will likely cause you to end up in jail. So the best approach is to protest in some other way since that isn't effective.

[FunkyMonkee]

The video shows at least two ex-IRS employees that refused to pay their taxes based on there being no law saying they had to. In another section, a woman on a jury in such a case, talks about how they deemed someone not guilty because there was no law saying we HAVE to pay them so, if there was no law for him to break, he was not guilty of breaking any.
I'm not saying people SHOULDN'T pay their taxes, just that there's no law saying we HAVE to, that it's SUPPOSED to be paid voluntarily and that, if we.. the people, are the bosses of politicians in this situation, who gave THEM the power to imprison us for NOT breaking a law or breaking one that doesn't exist!! Also, if they refuse to do things they SHOULD, by ALL RIGHTS and by our demands be doing, WHY should WE be FORCED to keep paying them for NOT doing their job as WE, their EMPLOYERS see fit? If you were the boss of a company and one of your employees slagged off or wasn't doing his job the way he was supposed to, wouldn't YOU stop paying him and fire him?

[RingOfFire]

"If you were the boss of a company and one of your employees slagged off or wasn't doing his job the way he was supposed to, wouldn't YOU stop paying him and fire him?"

Yes, but the private sector is subject to different rules than the government. Again, I am not saying I don't agree with your sentiment, only that doing something that almost certainly will have you end up in jail is not a good strategy for reforming the tax system. It's hard to stay in the game from jail.

[FunkyMonkee]

I'm not saying we should ALL avoid it, either but, on one hand, we SHOULD be allowed to audit the government to see where our tax money is being used which is what DOGE was all about and they found LOTS of bullshit waste!!
But, at the same time, there's some people that simply can't afford to pay them and, in some cases, SHOULDN'T be paying them AT ALL if they aren't even using the services they're paying for!! I'm down to my last $2000 and I just had to pay $1000 in two different taxes this month!! As I can barely afford to pay this, I SHOULDN''T have been forced to do so!! At least not until I can get SOME KIND of job where I can actually start MAKING some money!! Next up is school taxes!! Why the fuck should I HAVE to pay school taxes if I have no kids to make use of the taxes I pay? That's just as bad as Joe Biden making us taxpayers pay the debts of college kids we don't even know exist!! Why the fuck should ANY OF US HAVE to pay of THEIR debts? No one but me paid MY debts!! Well, grandma helped but, she was family, not some stranger halfway across the country!

[RingOfFire]

"I'm not saying we should ALL avoid it, either but, on one hand, we SHOULD be allowed to audit the government to see where our tax money is being used which is what DOGE was all about and they found LOTS of bullshit waste!!"

Absolutely 100%. I am a finance and accounting professional and I have had many years of experience. I can say with complete confidence that the handling of taxpayers' money by the federal government is an abomination and a violation of fundamental rules of accounting and fiduciary duty. If someone in a private sector corporation handled the shareholders' money the way the government handles the taxpayers' money they would be in prison. The waste, fraud, corruption and abuse in government is beyond description and their rules of managing the money are pathetically inadequate.

[FunkyMonkee]

I know of or have heard about quite a bit of it!! Some of it goes at least as far back as Christmas day, 1913 when everybody else was home celebrating Christmas and the rich assholes decided to start the fed while nobody was around to stop them!

[FunkyMonkee]

I just found this by accident.
https://youtu.be/bTLYcr-JuDc?si=M3OKJxfZlaG5T_tr

[RingOfFire]

There are lots of cases to be made both for and against the legality of the income tax or any other tax. But the bottom line is that you will be in jail if you don't pay them in America and most other places in the world. There are a few places you can live where you may not have to pay any income tax and/or other kinds of taxes such as UAE, Quatar, Bahrain, Kuwait, Bahamas, Cayman Islands, Monaco and a few others, but I think it's clear that the income tax is in America to stay at least for the foreseeable future since the Supreme Court has upheld it, it would take a change of the Constitution to eliminate it and it would currently be impossible get 38 states to ratify such a change as required.

I think that property taxes, which are not a federal tax, are even less moral. You have to pay thousands of dollars in rent to the government every year to live on the property that you own? Outrageous! But don't do it and you will lose your home.

[FunkyMonkee]

And, school taxes for those who either have no kids or whose kids have already graduated and gone on to college or a job is even worse!! Why should I be forced to pay when I have no dog in the race?

[RingOfFire]

Right! All part of the property tax. Kids shouldn't be educated in government schools anyway. American kids in public schools get some of the worst education in the world and at the highest cost per student in the world.

[FunkyMonkee]

I KNOW!!! People here are SO DUMB anymore!!!

[RingOfFire]

It's the teachers unions. They vote 90+ percent for Democrats and make campaign contributions to them in return for payoffs to the union bosses from corrupt Democrat political organizations. And they make sure the kids are ignorant and don't learn history.

[FunkyMonkee]

... OR spelling and grammar!! Not too bright on the math, either!!

[FunkyMonkee]

Another one I thought you might like to see. It even mentions the first one I posted and he even helped Aaron make that movie!
www.youtube.com/watch

[RingOfFire]

Thanks... he certainly is an interesting character. 😀

[FunkyMonkee]

Sure is!

[exitseven]

the flat tax would be the fairest system, , It eliminated the loopholes tht favor certain industries and creates a level playing field.

[RingOfFire]

I think the fairest income tax systems are in order of descending fairness:

1. A head tax. Everyone pays the same amount for each person their household. If the tax per head amount is $2,000 and you have 5 people in your household, your household pays $10,000. I think this is the fairest system of all because its no different than paying for a Big Mac at McDonalds. Everyone on line gets the same Big Mac. So why should one person have to pay more than any other person. Everyone is buying the same package of government services so its only fair that they have to pay the same price for it.

2. A flat tax. Everyone pays the same percentage of their income. The exact numbers would have to be debated. But lets say the percentage is set at 12%. If you make less than a certain amount, say $30,000 you pay nothing. If you make $50,000 you pay 12% of that or $6,000. If you make $50 million you pay $6 million. This isn't as fair as #1, but because the government is already so bloated with unnecessary programs, corruption and wasteful spending of taxpayers' money, it may be the only practical system.

[strateguy632]

I disagree this time, the loop holes are not about amount. The long books are to help IRS catch those using loopholes.

[exitseven]

Thanks for the MHO😎

[Mike_Hum]

Best case would be to eliminate income tax altogether.

[RingOfFire]

Let's say that you believe that the only legitimate function of government is to provide military to protect citizens from foreign threats and law enforcement to protect them from internal criminal threats? How would that be funded?

[Mike_Hum]

How was it funded prior to 1913

[RingOfFire]

With tariffs and excise taxes.

[strateguy632]

You could say the same complaint about all court cases! The biggest problem is "what tax deductions" so it is a great tax system.

[strateguy632]

The same%? No way for money beyond 50,000 until 90,000 even giving a small percent is plenty.

[strateguy632]

Should be:
Poor: $0-$11,925 pay 0. Called tax deductible.
Pay 10% on amount between: $11,926- $48,475
8%: $48,476- $103,350
7%: $103,351- $197,300
6%: $197,301- $250,000
5%: $250,001 or more
NOT bigger percent like now "37%: $626,351 And up"
8% of 100 000 is 8,000 so it is far more than 10% of 9,000 =900!

[strateguy632]

I meant far more than 10% of 39,000 =3,900!

[RingOfFire]

What not the simplest of all flat tax?

The numbers would have to be debated but it could end up something like this.

You make less than $30k you pay nothing.

You make more than $30k you pay 12%.

So if you make $50k you pay $6,000.

You make $50 million you pay $6,000,000.

What's wrong with that?

[strateguy632]

Because $6 million is huge. The way it is now is a good system except: percentage needs invert as i showed.
Never more than 10% so
10% of 39,000 (beyond deduction ) is 3,900 but 8% of 100 000 is double ! it is plenty ! (not 37%)!

[RingOfFire]

Just about any system is better than the current system. It is a flat out disaster.

[Cidknee]

FUCK NO!!