Do you think Iran defeated the United States and israel?

[Light_beam]

[NovaSpawn]

Well, let's go down the list. 1. Their navy is destroyed outside of speedboats 2. Their air force is non existent 3. The IRIS Derna (A ship) suffered more losses than USA. Israelz and the Arabs combined 4. They have suffered thousands of casualties 5. Much of their leadership is dead 6. Their missile capacity has been cut by 90% 7. The Iranian population despises the government 8. The economy is collapsing 9. They've lost over 500 billion of equipment 10. They lose over 500 million a day from the blockade 11. Their Supreme leader is in hiding (or dead) 12. The best they can do is threaten shipping and launch missiles at Arab civilians... just a few points. You decide.

[NovaSpawn]

Truthfully the best argument people have is "Trump is trying to get a deal" or "what about the strait of Hormuz" which I wonder why diplomacy is inherently bad (though I disagree with the obsession and his antics), and how exactly the strait of hormuz is hurting the US more than Iran?

[FrodoSkywalker007]

No, I don't believe so. I think Trump got what he wanted. Israel will be unhappy because of differing objectives. Iran was pummeled and is able to claim they survived. Though it was very costly for them. It's likely they will take many years to rebuild. They will likely become a threat again in a couple decades. To me it looks like a military success for US and Israel and a political stalemate. That assumes the talks hold.

[Light_beam]

Iran is already a threat now and later..

[FrodoSkywalker007]

Still a threat? Yes. It will always be that unless there is regime change. Iran is significantly weakened from the war. They can rebuild in time though if left unhindered.

[Light_beam]

Weakened? They got a lot of infrastructure destruction but they are not weakned militarily.. And the fact that they survived a joint war aginist the US and israel made them a feared military power.. the only part that got destroyed is their navy and it was mediocre anyway.. they still can close the strait and sink US ships with what they have currently

[FrodoSkywalker007]

Not at all. They suffered significant degradation to their missile infrastructure and proxy network among other things. This sets them back years. Also, it's a bit foolhardy to make claims that we witnessed were not true. Irans influence on the strait was more conected to its harassment, threats, and geographical position. Iran was always going to survive because it was not a stated goal of the US government to overthrow the regime. That is a very low bar you are setting.

[lilBigPotato]

Depends on how you look at things. If it's just about the goals of this war that the US declared, then they certainly didn't lose.

[NovaSpawn]

How Do you figure?;1. Iran lost 90% of its missile capacity and production 2. It proxies are weakened and most of them refused to fight 3. It's navy no longer exists outside of speedboats and 4. Iran has agreed to surrender its nuclear program

Looks to me Iran lost badly, and the US achieved its objectives

[Light_beam]

Yes.. i agree.. they didn't lose.. but for a lot of people that is a huge victory to not lose against the first super power in the world plus israel too !!

[NovaSpawn]

What is not lose? To survive when the objective was never to overthrow the

[lilBigPotato]

@NovaSpawn they didn't agree to surrender their nuclear program. If they were willing to do that, it would have been part of this agreement. At best they are willing to make some concessions. That is not what the US/Trump wanted. Iran if willing to MAYBE go back to some treaty like they had already in the past, you know the one Trump cancelled because it was apparently so bad. Iran will never fully give up their program. If you think that you're naive and if that's ever the US requires, the war will start again in a few months but Trump will chicken out and sell it as a win because he can't have this mess going on.

[NovaSpawn]

If you read the memorandum, you would know the requirement is the full dismantling of the Iranian nuclear program, oversight, gaurantees, and the enriched uranium before any final deal is to be signed.

[NovaSpawn]

You should further know Iranian official statements already agreed to this. It is a massive concession compared to previous Iranian demands. Initially, they demanded removal of all US forces from the region (insane, and impossible).

[BonzoInBitburg]

I wouldn't say they defeated the US and Israel but they didn't lose. Iran got more or less what it wanted and Israel is pissed. Iran won't sign it if Israel doesn't stop bombing Lebanon. But this is Trump's exit, leaving Iran with everything they had before the war started plus a little more. He can blame Israel now it Iran doesn't sign

[NovaSpawn]

Not sure what they gained?

[NovaSpawn]

Assuming it happens (we've been here before). Iran loses its nuclear program. They've been butchered militarily and financially. They haven't received any of their demands?

[BonzoInBitburg]

They did not lose their nuclear program. They delayed negotiating uranium and missiles for 60 days on the condition of ceasefire by the US and Israel including Lebanon and they need to receive 50% of their frozen assets before negotiations start. Everything reverts back to how it was before the war started for now for 60 days. After that Iran said it will start charging a fee to go through the Strait. If Israel bombs Lebanon the deals off which is why Iran won't sign until Friday. The most important issue in this whole war wasn't even addressed in this so-called deal.

[NovaSpawn]

This is already denied by the US SIDE. thsts the problem

[NovaSpawn]

For example, axios just reported that the US says there was no agreement about frozen funds

[Light_beam]

Iran won't give up their nuclear program.. Not a chance.. Don't believe it if they say yes now..

[andreasderjuengere]

I don't think.
This thing has nothing to do with my own life.

[msc545]

No, but Iran pulled off a stalemate, which is just as good in this case.

[Light_beam]

I agree to that

[exitseven]

No, they did not.

[Mike_Hum]

lol, no.

[Iron_Man]

No..