What is the purpose of punishment?

[msc545]

We already know, based on a lot of research, that it does not decrease recidivism. When people are incarcerated, they are contained for the period of time of their sentence, but when they are released, they actually are more likely to engage in more criminal behavior. So, what exactly is the purpose of punishment?

[Sevenpointfive]

to keep you down. they have taken you out of participating in the dream. you will never succeed once they've convicted you. why? because you are banned from employment. and then prison debt shows up. you paid your debt to society but the prison has left you a new debt that your job can't pay. you can't possibly survive in society without criminal behavior. they release you to do crime. they need this to justify the police. every system justifies the next and it's all to eliminate players in the game of life. where the winners are already chosen.

[DryGermanGuy]

Rehabilitation/education. At least in modern civilized countries it is, n'est pas?

[msc545]

Punishment is vengeance not rehabilitation.

[DryGermanGuy]

That's not the applicable formula for the aforementioned countries. Watch documentaries about the penal system in Europe. The punishment part means to take away your freedom (and right to vote, etc.). The larger part is rehabilitation, re-education and re-integration.
https://youtu.be/yOmcP9sMwIE?si=PVkqH337Xz0nfeLy

[msc545]

I know people are far too interested in vengeance because they're chronically angry anyway. In the post just above this, I said that I think it's due to capitalism and the fact that capitalism makes sure that a few people win and everyone else loses. The losers are chronically angry in this system.

[msc545]

That is an excellent video. Thank you very much for posting it.

[msc545]

The United States is no longer a civilized country if it ever was.

[lightbulb27]

Those sentences make me puke emotionally but it's a good question... if only we'd actually embrace change.

It's to correct behavior so the human can function in society, and as well to punish for the damage caused to others for their error... that's the duration issue. We forget about the "repair" part

The problem is, there is likely no correction. The underlying problem was mis-programming in early life by society and parents. Traumas (I'll use that term generally as anything that wasn't of love or translated badly and restricting the good in the person) and lack of discipline.

That results in poorly trained humans, some of them dangerous. In our verison of society, we often drug people or take away drugs and give them other drugs.

What we have is really sick and pathetic. I do know a guy whom gave his life to go into prisons and minister to people, to save them. He was sent to jail and found Christ there and was saved... from his early childhood abuse which turned to crime. He was dealing with the spiritual and emotional beings and made a dent. We need that x 100.

Unfortunately the human trama generator of society we have cranks them out faster than can be saved. Our medical system that medicates to solve problems is ultra sick in it's training. Separation of church and state fails here miserably.

[NathanDavis]

it's just not done well... and that's the problem

some European countries like Norway, Germany, Finland and few others... have a very low ratio of recividivisidism... and many other have positive rates instead of negative one, so... it obviously works for some, when they do things well

then you have places like Brazil and Mexico both... in which the percentages of recividimisimism are stupidly high, and almost as high as 60 or 70% however!! for the populations under special programs in which they focus on actual socialization, the rates go as low as 10% in many cases

now, if you meant to ask about only the USA... then yeah, the USA doesn't do it well at all, in fact.. in the United States there's an entire business and industry dedicated to jail more people to make a profit

[loveslongnails]

Beats me! lol Instead of prison for the worst criminal offenders, I propose dropping them in the middle of the Darien Gap, the land bridge between Central and South America. It's 60 miles long and is known for being a dangerous route for migrants.

Significant risks, include:
Harsh environmental conditions including intense heat, humidity, flooding, mudslides, etc., threats from wildlife and insects, dangers from criminal groups.

If you make it to one side or the other alive, you're still fucked, but you're not our problem any more.

[Iron_Man]

To teach blockheads not to do it again. A grown man is not gong to listen to somebody saying don’t do it again you’re free to go. When they’re disciplined then they’ll pay attention not to do it again. It’s like you and your female friend or girlfriend from the past when you used to role-play she ended up calling the police because you were too rough or something and then you learned your lesson never to have to experience this again and you completely stayed away from it women like that

[msc545]

If it actually taught people not to do it again as you put it then it would probably result in less recidivism. It doesn't. It actually results in more.

[gasman70]

the purpose of punishment is to negatively reinforce bad behavior. Much like if you tell a child to go to their room early is supposed to teach them what they did was not worth the consenquence.

[msc545]

Research indicates that negative reinforcement just results in an amplification of the same behavior that you are objecting to.

[gasman70]

just like executing people does absolutely nothing to sway crime and is more costly than life in prison.

[msc545]

Yes, exactly.

[gasman70]

right on

[gasman70]

I was explaining the purpose of it, not the value of it

[msc545]

Well that's the stated purpose. I'm not sure they stated purpose is anything more than an excuse.

[gasman70]

Msc, you're missing that it's simply a definition of it. nothing more, nothing less.

[msc545]

Ok I understand

[MrChinaski]

There is a heck of a lot of causality floating through your question that I could challenge word by word. Do we actually know what imprisonment causes?

[msc545]

Having worked as a prison doctor, I can tell you that imprisonment often seems to cause recidivism. Quite a bit of it actually.

[MrChinaski]

It was a serious question. I eat pop-tarts. My wife gets angry at me for eating pop-tarts. But I still eat them. Does my wife cause recidivism? Do we actually know ANYTHING about the causal effect? Am I more or less likely to eat pop-tarts because of my wife's anger? The relevant comparison group is with people that commit crimes and don't get caught and sent to prison... and my guess is the recidivism rate of not catching them is pretty darn high..

[msc545]

I would have to get a lot more familiar with the research on recidivism and its relationship to prison conditions to really answer your questions but you pose interesting questions and perhaps I shall study them. In the meantime, it turns out that if you treat people decently while they are in prison then when they get out they are far less likely to commit further crimes. Those statistics are readily available. I agree that it's difficult to explain the causal relationship, but it may not be necessary if it holds true in general.

[goaded]

Revenge, I suppose. Imprisonment also prevents them from harming others for the duration.

[msc545]

What is the purpose of taking revenge on people?

[goaded]

It makes victims (or their surviving relatives) feel better and it should act as a deterrence.

[msc545]

It actually does not make victims feel better and it often makes them feel a lot worse. It also encourages recidivism among other criminals and does not discourage crime at all. In other words, it has no discernible purpose other than to satisfy the bloodlust of people who advocate it.

[goaded]

Presumably you're not suggesting closing all the prisons? Should they be more like Norway's?

Wow, England and Wales does really badly (or criminals are really good at getting caught again)!

worldpopulationreview.com/.../recidivism-rates-by-country

[msc545]

Yes, I'm not suggesting closing prisons, but I also am suggesting they should be more like Norway's prisons. Norway has one of the lowest recidivism rates in the world because they actually believe in treating people like human beings.

[goaded]

It will be hard to make the case that the reduction in crime would pay for the costs of stopping prisons from being hell-holes.

[msc545]

I think crime is pretty expensive in multiple ways, but one thing crime does is give people an excuse to use violence and to punish criminals. People in the United States, in particular, are extremely interested in vengeance, and I actually think that this is due to capitalism and the effects of living in a capitalist system where a few people win and everybody else loses.

[Anonymous]

To keep the masses obedient

It was more effective when execution was the norm because the dead don't reoffend

[888theGreat]

They talk to other inmates and learn what they are doing wrong.

[slatyb]

For the pleasure of sadists

[msc545]

Well that is not the stated purpose of course, but it certainly seems like sadists are the ones that propose the most sadistic of punishments and I guess that's not really a surprise.

[purplepoppy]

It makes the victim feel better.

[msc545]

I think that is the rationale used to inflict a lot of punishment, but if you actually talk to people who have been victims punishing perpetrators doesn''t make them feel better and often makes them feel much worse.

[Anonymous]

Dominance

[msc545]

And what does that get you?

[Opinion Owner]

You asked a question.. "the purpose of punishment" I think people punish others for the sake of dominance

[msc545]

Yes, I understand. Maybe I should have asked you, "Why is dominance important?" Consider that a question. Another question now.