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By definition, it's a mental condition. I's a particular type of body dysmorphia, woke as one is, no one can say with a straight face that body dysmorphia isn't a mental condition.
It's described in The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5), so by definition, it has to be a mental disorder.
The medical definition of a disorder is a disturbance of the normal physical or mental health of the mind or body. I dare you to argue that believing that you were born in the wrong body is a a normal and healthy thing, especially when it results in such strong distain for your body that you want to modify it until it's unrecognizable and face an incredibly high suicide rate.
Boiling down gender to a little more than a hairstyle results in the word being meaningless. You're not a different 'gender' just because you got a couple shitty piercings and have dyed your hair green.
Demanding that medical experts walk around you like on eggshells renders the work biased and wrong. Imagine an alien species describing us from far away. Would they even know that some of us have a concept of 'gender' (meaning a fashion sense these days)? Being a stay at home dad or a working mom isn't a mental illness, but thinking that you're the other sex is nowhere near the same level.
Nice try you illiterate dick. Care to know about the difference between transgender and transsexual or are you just gonna misinterpret my words and act in bad faith? Case in case you didn't know, nowadays morons think that gender and sex are different things, with the term gender rendered useless since it now refers to the mental state of someone. As if you can even categorize that in any way. But go on, if gender identity isn't merely a haircut what is it precisely? Personality?
The DSM–5 articulates explicitly that “gender non-conformity is not in itself a mental disorder.” The 5th edition also includes a separate “gender dysphoria in children” diagnosis and for the first time allows the diagnosis to be given to individuals with disorders of sex development (DSD).
@Ez-Bri-Z
"The DSM–5 articulates explicitly that “gender non-conformity is not in itself a mental disorder.”
This has nothing to do with what I said, my statements actually support that line of thought:
"I dare you to argue that believing that you were born in the wrong body is a a normal and healthy thing, especially when it results in such strong distain for your body that you want to modify it until it's unrecognizable and face an incredibly high suicide rate."
"Being a stay at home dad or a working mom isn't a mental illness, but thinking that you're the other sex is nowhere near the same level."
Again, this is a moronic argument over the leftist definition of 'gender'. But you're gonna be hard pressed to tell me that people who believe they were born with wrong body parts aren't mentally ill, much as you wanna sugar coat it because of 'progress'.
"The 5th edition also includes a separate “gender dysphoria in children” diagnosis and for the first time allows the diagnosis to be given to individuals with disorders of sex development (DSD)."
This is a statement, not an argument. I've never said that I have a problem with this.
"Gender and sex are different things and I have already provided several links including from the WHO stating as such."
Firstly, no, you haven't provided any real links. You barged into this conversation with the term gender, I've not mentioned it, especially not at first. But I'll play. Can you give me then a strict, useful definition of gender that doesn't boil down to personality and isn't based in stereotypes about men and women?
"I mean, unless you are calling people a hell of a lot smarter than you, morons."
Only a moron thinks that science cannot be corrupted by social movements and political bias. Whether or not something is based in actual data or in trying to be politically correct are two very different things.
From the world health organization
Gender refers to the characteristics of women, men, girls and boys that are socially constructed. This includes norms, behaviours and roles associated with being a woman, man, girl or boy, as well as relationships with each other. As a social construct, gender varies from society to society and can change over time.
Gender is hierarchical and produces inequalities that intersect with other social and economic inequalities. Gender-based discrimination intersects with other factors of discrimination, such as ethnicity, socioeconomic status, disability, age, geographic location, gender identity and sexual orientation, among others. This is referred to as intersectionality.
Gender interacts with but is different from sex, which refers to the different biological and physiological characteristics of females, males and intersex persons, such as chromosomes, hormones and reproductive organs. Gender and sex are related to but different from gender identity. Gender identity refers to a person’s deeply felt, internal and individual experience of gender, which may or may not correspond to the person’s physiology or designated sex at birth.
Credit to smashingdoozy for this one
Or If you want a more reliable dictionary oxford states
"either of the two sexes (male and female), especially when considered with reference to ***social and cultural differences rather than biological ones***. The term is also used more broadly to ***denote a range of identities that do not correspond to established ideas of male and female***"
If none of those work, how about by psychiatrists
Sex/gender assigned at birth: Traditional designation of a person as “female,” “male,” or “intersex” based on anatomy (external genitalia and/ or internal reproductive organs) and/or biology (sex chromosomes and/or hormones). “Sex” and “gender” are often used interchangeably, but they are distinct entities. It is best to distinguish between sex, gender identity, and gender expression and to avoid making assumptions about a person regarding one of these characteristics based on knowledge of the others. This is sometimes abbreviated as AFAB (assigned female at birth) or AMAB (assigned male at birth).
And those definitions of gender are the problems I'm having with them summed up perfectly. Take definition 1a - "partly arbitrary but also partly based on distinguishable characteristics (such as shape, social rank, manner of existence, or sex) and that determines agreement with and selection of other words or grammatical forms"
An arbitrary definition of a word is a shit definition. It doesn't work for any other word, and gender is no exception. I don't understand what gender has to do with social rank. Manner of existence is way too vague and essentially (my generous understanding) means little more than the kinds of clothes you're wearing. Problem with that is it's based in stereotypes coming from what a stereotypical woman/man is like. Those parts are especially evident in definitions 2a, 2b and 2c. If your gender is nonbinary, I'm genuinely asking, what does that mean? What is it that makes someone nonbinary exactly and why is it a valuable and meaningful distinction?
Interesting how people are ignoring the 'sex' part that the definition outlines.
The WHO one is also generally based in stereotypes then, now isn't it? What is the practical application of the term gender then? What kind of information am I getting when someone states their gender in that definition? Cause I understand what man/woman mean, I have no idea what's the distinction here. If it varies from society, what's the purpose and actual use of it? What's the point?
"Gender identity refers to a person’s deeply felt, internal and individual experience of gender"
What does this mean really? Honestly, how is that definition of gender any different than 'personality'?
The Oxford one uses a lot of word to say nothing at all.
"social and cultural differences rather than biological ones"
What are those exactly? What use am I getting from this term, what meaning are you conveying?
"denote a range of identities that do not correspond to established ideas of male and female"
Then what are those in in what ways are they different? How are they useful? How are these definitions different from the definition of 'personality', especially when they are modeled after stereotypes?
The psychiatrists one is even less useful because it states literally nothing. Nothing is defined, everything is vague and up for interpretation, essentially meaningless.
The reason why I didn't search them is because everyone seems to have a different definition, and all are ill-defined. I struggle to come up with a single other word that is as subjective and poorly defined as 'gender'.
I'm interested in a useful definition, one that isn't completely subjective and ill-defined. I asked for a strict, useful definition which doesn't boil down to to personality and isn't based in stereotypes about men and women, but that's just not what I got. I'm genuinely trying to understand but all of these definitions are counterintuitive and never well defined. I'm not getting any real meaning from 'gender' under these definitions.
They are well defined, they just don't define it in a mold that you find acceptable to you and I'm pretty certain no matter what I post, it won't make a difference to you, but I'll give it one last shot. I'll post what I just posted in another thread and hopefully give a better idea to you of what is being conveyed.
You are looking at it too binary. Im just as supportive of lgbt (you've seen me in other threads), but even i know there isn't infinite. If sex is broken down to male or female, then gender would break down along the roles society has set upon them for being that sex. Now that would mean typical stereotypes (boys aren't supposed to play with dolls! Girls should be the ones to care for the children and take care of the house)
So where gender breaks out from there. You can have transgendered individuals who fall into these categories.
¹Male to female
²Female to male
³non binary (they don't feel like either gender fits them accurately)
⁴gender fluid (how they feel about their gender fluctuates. Some days they feel ultra femme and some days they feel masculine)
⁵two spirit (believe they carry traits from both male and female roles at the same time and are living in both roles at once. This also seems to be region specific which doesn't make sense to me)
Funny enough, if society didn't place these stupid expectations on people based on their biological sex and look down on those who didn't fit those molds, I dont think there would be as many people who feel the way they do about gender.
Being born with an innie vs an outie shouldn't have a bearing on my interests. If I want to go fix a car, take care of my family, wear a dress, go without shaving my legs, play with dolls, go peg someone, be a sub... I should be able to do any of those without being looked down on just because of my sex.
So many things are pointlessly gendered in this world.
"If sex is broken down to male or female, then gender would break down along the roles society has set upon them for being that sex."
Can you elaborate, cause I don't see any roles for the society that can't be potentially done by the other sex, and I don't understand why this would inherently need gender. When I hear 'roles for society' I think of jobs, and I assume that this is what you mean. I don't think that a baker and a soldier are different genders.
"Now that would mean typical stereotypes (boys aren't supposed to play with dolls! Girls should be the ones to care for the children and take care of the house)"
I don't see why a specific term is needed for this. This is too broad of a definition, but most of this can be replaced with the words job, personality, interests etc. So I fail to see a real use out of 'gender' here. I don't find stereotypes to be a useful or good way to base the definitions of words on.
If you tell me that you're ³/⁴/⁵ I'm not getting any useful information. I can understand the concept of 1 and 2, but these one's seem meaningless and useless. I don't know a single person who's always masculine/feminine.
But here's the thing, if you wasn't the stereotypes to be dropped you can't base your existence on them. I'm not a fan of stereotypes, it's on of the big reasons why I don't like the new definition. I agree, do what you want to, stereotypes are bad. Anyway, why do you want 'gender' to mean little more than stereotypes?
I think you are misunderstanding. I don't want all the gendered roles. I think I should be able to do a stereotypical "male" role and not be looked down on. I want you to be able to be a homemaker and not have people give you shit about not being a "real man" for having a wife who supports you. My post history shows me fighting against that whole stupid mindset. It's not that we can't do the other roles, it's that society gives us problems when we try to. I fought on many threads where toxic male attitudes that expressed desires such as "women should be taking care of the kids while the men go to work."
I am a feminist who is looking for true equality. I would love to be rid of gender roles completely.
You knowing someone who is ³/⁴/⁵ doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Personally I think I know I am female, but I know I also have what some would consider masculine traits in my behaviors because I don't submit to males like my dad who think women are here to serve.
I dont want gender to mean stereotypes. I want to get rid of the idea of it altogether.
You can't distance yourself from stereotypes while simultaneously using them to base your gender on.
My point isn't that 3/4/5 people don't exist, the problem is that the definition is useless and meaningless. In fact the point is that everyone can fall into these categories. People are complex and they behave differently. No one is always 'masculine', no one is always 'feminine'. I've met some of the toughest guys, come to know them and they liked cooking and gardening. I don't think that gendering activities is useful nor good, but I'm guessing that those would fall into that category. When I met my girlfriend she seemed like the nicest, cutesy kinda girl yet I've come to know her as a petrol head who loves guns and going track racing. None of these people ever thought about gender outside of 'I have a dick, I'm a dude'. I know that I've never had a deep thought hour about 'how do I feel'. I find these term to be useless. I like cars and guns. I like to bake cookies and take bubble baths. I don't find any of these things to be telling of one's gender, only personality/hobbies.
Genuinely, what am I getting if not personality when someone says 'I'm non binary'? We already have words like personality, interests, hobbies, desires, etc. and gender being redefined that way renders it useless.
Sure I can. Thats what they are based on. You can see it in the links and definitions i sent earlier.
Separate from that, I also distance myself from gender roles because I think they are wrong on the whole the definition can exist outside of my like of it.
You and I are on the same page here. Your examples only help both sides of this argument. Those things you listed as your girl being a petrol head and loves guns, you listed them specifically because people cast them as stereotypical male interests. If they weren't thought as such, you wouldn't have even included them.
That's my point. There are so many pointlessly gendered things that people see as masculine or feminine activities. It should just be HUMAN things
Now, take all that and feeling like your parts don't match how you feel inside. When you look in a mirror, you see a complete stranger. When you do as something as simple as a shower that it causes you to break down and cry because it feels wrong. We get upset because we have gained too much weight or or breasts are too small. They feel their whole body is off. That's being transgender in general.
"Sure I can. Thats what they are based on."
That's a monumentally stupid thing to say. If you're making a song and base 90% of it on Stairway To Heaven, you can't say that you're distancing yourself from Led Zeppelin.
Why can't you do the same thing with race? Hypothetically, if someone was to make up a word zdyrpf, the definition of which is your race, but based on your feelings which are categorized according to racist stereotypes. I can't imagine saying that this concept isn't stupid and racist, let alone one that is distancing itself from the racist roots of those stereotypes. If you disagree, why is it that makes gender alright, but zdyrpf wrong?
"You and I are on the same page here. Your examples only help both sides of this argument. Those things you listed as your girl being a petrol head and loves guns, you listed them specifically because people cast them as stereotypical male interests. If they weren't thought as such, you wouldn't have even included them."
But here's the problem, those things are stereotypically gendered and both of us disagree with that. My goals would be to 'de gender' them. I don't see how that can be done if you're perpetuating the same stereotypes, just giving them a new label.
"It should just be HUMAN things"
And how are you gonna achieve that if you're using them to define gender?
That's body dysmorphia. Legit, when I see mainstream media covering transgender people they only got a tattoo, a septum piercing and have dyed their hair green. There are people who identify as a tiger who do much more. I don't see 'gender' as useful when it manifests 90% of it in the clothes you wear. People like Destiny who say they're nonbinary don't even do that much. To Destiny nonbinary is just personality. We happen to already have the word 'personality' so I don't think that 'gender' is a useful word.
You seem to be confused, you are saying that the definition is MINE as if I gave the definition to gender. I didn't. I'm telling you what the actual definition is so feel free to back off me about that.
Your example of making up words. Uh... all words are made up. Every single one. None of them had value until we assigned value to them. So yeah, technically your extreme example could exist whether I agree with it or not. My goal is to degender them. Again we are saying the same thing but you aren't grasping that. We don't want things to be gendered. I agree. You agree. Why are you still fighting this part of it with me?
Finally, its not your call on how gender expression is supposed to look. Even between cisgendered woman we all have different looks. It doesn't make any of less of a woman. We just express it in different ways. Im very mom aesthetic with a bit of femme. My wife doesn't have a bit of femme in her but she is still a woman the same as I.
Whether or not you came up the definition you're arguing for it here.
"Your example of making up words. Uh... all words are made up. Every single one. None of them had value until we assigned value to them."
You're starting arguments here that I've never even touched, and ignoring the questions I wanted answered.
"So yeah, technically your extreme example could exist whether I agree with it or not."
Brilliant input. Thank you for the enlightening answer to the nonexistent question. Now can you answer the ones I've actually asked? Why is it that (I assume) you agree with gender being based in stereotypes rooted in sex, but you can't have the same exact concept, only rooted in race? Both are based on stereotypes. Both are incredibly stupid and meaningless. Why is gender alright, but race if off limits?
"My goal is to degender them. Again we are saying the same thing but you aren't grasping that. We don't want things to be gendered. I agree. You agree. Why are you still fighting this part of it with me?"
Because you're never gonna get to that point, less you get rid of stereotypes entirely. You can't get rid of stereotypes if you're using them to base your sense of self in.
"Finally, its not your call on how gender expression is supposed to look. Even between cisgendered woman we all have different looks. It doesn't make any of less of a woman. We just express it in different ways."
What is the real, useful distinction between 3/4/5 when they can look and act the same. It's utterly pointless to denote a different gender when literally everything is the same. It's not a useful word anymore, it relates to nothing, specifies nothing and differentiates nothing.
Yeah so you can't just have a discussion without being insulting and frankly I'm on vacation so I'm not bothering. I'll continue when I get back next week. I dont mind having a civil discussion but every response has been laced with sarcasm and the inability to follow along with the discussion. You bring up making random words and giving them meaning and why is one ok and the other is not. Im telling you all words are made up. Now if you want to work within reality I'll work with you on this point.
I can't tell if you are intentionally being dense or if it is occurring against your will, but either way I'm over it for now. I'll get back to this next week if I remember.
Don't be hung up on something I've never brought up. I've never said that all words aren't made up. Now if you're done with dodging and sidestepping, can you answer why it's ok to base gender in stereotypes, but doing the same thing only with race wouldn't be? Cause those are the questions I've asked, not whether or not words are made up of if it's conceivably possible that someone's gonna make up a word.
GREAT question. Why do they? If I wanted to get tattoos, split my tongue and get modifications to give myself horns that's absolutely a-ok.
Augment my breasts to ridiculous proportions? Sure thing, Bri, live your best life.
But if a transgendered person needs surgery to validate themselves they have to jump through a ton of hurdles to do so.
So, why is that?
lol imagine thinking that getting breast implants in anywhere near the level of being trans. Jesus fuck you sound just like far right retards who think that being trans is just wearing a skirt.
'why is getting a tattoo easier than changing my fucking gender and irreversibly changing my body and being neutered. curious'
It’s a mental disorder and should be treated as such.
Opinion
3Opinion
And you actually did mention gender in your post right here.
"Nice try you illiterate dick. Care to know about the difference between transgender and transsexual or are you just gonna misinterpret my words and act in bad faith? Case in case you didn't know, nowadays morons think that gender and sex are different things, with the term gender rendered useless since it now refers to the mental state of someone. As if you can even categorize that in any way. But go on, if gender identity isn't merely a haircut what is it precisely? Personality?"
You specifically try to call out sex and gender being different things. They ARE different things. Transgenderism isn't an AMAB trying to pretend to be female with just a haircut. It isn't an AFAB trying to be male by shaving his head. There are others that keep getting left out like non binary or gender fluid for example.
A person's biological sex is determined at birth. Gender roles are determined by society. For example, me being female doesn't mean I'm forever bound to being a housewife and serving a husband. Those rules were created by society and change over time. That's why they are known as gender roles. Gender is a social construct.
Being a biological woman means most likely having the biological functions of women, but even that isn't a guarantee. Some biological women don't even have that in place. Some will never be able to bear children for example. That doesn't make them less of a biological woman.
Now if I wake up one day and say, hey, I want to chop off all my hair, it doesn't make me a guy. If I wake up and say I don't feel right in my body and I never have, then I might be transgender in that case. I could in theory start presenting like a guy. I could start taking testosterone and develop male characteristics like a deep voice, build muscle easier and probably have a much larger sex drive. I could try to fit into society that way and given how tall I am, I might even blend in fairly well, though it isn't the only parts I'd have to worry about. It would be typical male behaviors I would have to learn. Sure, some of them may be stereotypes, but again those describe gender better than sex does.
Welp... this posted in the wrong place this was meant for @Sargentcaptain
@ez-bri-z I don't understand why you're separating your conversations from @Sargentcaptain
"And you actually did mention gender in your post right here."
So you've provided evidence that I only brought up gender after other people wanted to argue about it. I don't think that's the own you think it is.
As I've argued before, I don't find 'gender' (anything you fucking think of) to be a useful of meaningful definition. The word 'gender' is now completely useless.
I would never in a million billion trillion years say that being or not being a housewife is a gender, but go on. It's almost like you wanna prove to me that 'gender' is a moronic, meaningless word. I just can't see any practical use for the new definition of gender and your housewife example is really not helping your case.
'Some women have health issues, ergo they aren't women.' Who says that? I don't see your point.
''It would be typical male behaviors I would have to learn.''
No, I don't see this as useful at all. Fuck the rest of the world, fuck 'blending in', just be who you are.
Many people, cis or not, adhere to stereotypes attributed to their sex, many behave closer to a stereotypical person of the opposite sex. I still don't see the point here. You're now going into the transsexual part instead of the gender. These are, as you said, two different conversations. I don't get your point here.
But back to gender. My problem with the lefty definition of gender is somewhat similar to my problem with the right's definition of gender - it's useless and the term can be replaced with other preexisting, better defined words. For the right's definition it would be sex, for the left's it would be personality/stereotypically [x].
The commonly pushed narrative is that gender reassignment surgery and the affiliated hormone treatment is the preferred method for addressing transgenderism. There's a few major problems though:
For starters, people claiming to be transgender have one of the highest suicide rates in the world. In fact I think it's currently the highest observed suicide rate in history other than Jews living in Nazi-occupied Europe. This on its own goes to show that mental health is a major factor, regardless of the ethical issues behind all of it. A heavily suppressed psychological study also found that the suicide rate has little or no change between pre and post-transition operations, and any positive correlation is handily eclipsed by the numbers of people who back down and reverse the procedure because they realize they're making a mistake, often because they were pressured into going that route in the first place.
The other problem is that the procedure itself is misleading by name. It is not actually possible to turn men into women or women into men other than by outward appearance alone. If a fully transitioned person dies and decomposes, DNA testing on the body would reveal exactly what they were at birth, and archaeologists down the road would identify them as such.
It's also worth mentioning that all other forms of Body Dysmorphia are rightly observed and treated as mental health issues and not given anything close to the same special treatment despite being essentially the same thing with different ends, making it by far the most overrepresented group in political discourse. The WHO (which has lost virtually all credibility over the last decade anyway) made a very controversial move to reclassify it as a "sexual health" issue instead of mental health, seemingly for entirely political reasons rather than medical or practical. Psychologists, whether they outwardly tow the line with the political side of the argument or not, almost universally disagree for all the reasons stated above.
All reasons stated above is why I firmly refuse to support any form of taxpayer-funded "medical" operation that doesn't actually produce an effective outcome. It should be treated the same way as elective cosmetic surgeries, because that's all it really is. The fact pretty much no government on the planet is interested in finding more effective means of treating this particular mental health case should be taken offense to by anyone who is suffering from or knows anyone suffering from it, because the simple message is that they don't really care about you.
It’s real, the rest of the world sort of changed it years ago.
as usual the US is lagging behind everyone.
The land of the Free….. hmm for those that tick the right boxes.
Gender dysphoria definitely mental
Mental disorder.
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