Did Achilles and Patroclus ever had sex?

Question

In the Iliad, the two heroes have a deep and meaningful relationship. Achilles is tender towards Patroclus, while he is callous and arrogant towards others. In the Iliad Homer never suggests that Achilles and his close friend Patroclus were lovers. However, this omission was challenged by some later authors...
in the song of Achilles they have a deep relationship.. however they didn't mention anything of them having sex -.-
it says people back then were gay or bi it was normal so im just making sure was Achilles gay? Did he and Patroclus had da kind of relationship? If so did they had sex? ...

fauchelevent · Accepted Answer

Ancient history student here, I literally studied this :P In the Iliad, Achilles and Patroclus did not have sex. Homer's description of them is definitely a deep and meaningful one, yes, and you're right that it's challenged, but yeah, Homer didn't intend to write them as lovers.

In the Song of Achilles, they do have sex. Perhaps not sex through penetration but not all same sex couples would have done that back then. They do, however, have a handjob scene in the book which clearly shows they have a sexual relationship to that author, and a romantic one.

Plato's Symposium and Aeschylus' The Myrmidons are the two most famous works that have Achilles and Patroclus actually have a loving and sexual relationship. In these stories, yes, they are known to have sex. It's all about which author you choose to read.

Also, being gay or bi was definitely not considered normal back then. If you were gay, you were mocked and considered disgusting as we can see in many works but in one of my favourites, The Thesmophoriazusae where the poet Agathon is mocked for having a 'slack passage' because he's gay.

Male on male relationships were typically acceptable only in times of war - for some Greeks - or in a teaching relationship that as called pederastry. A young male (not a child, usually an adolescent) would be paired with an adult male who would teach him how to perform sexual acts and how to be a good partner for his future wife. This was totally fine and wasn't really considered gay, just another form of schooling. However, when it's a romantic relationship between two adult men, it was very often considered abnormal, especially for the 'submissive' or receiving partner. The 'dominant' or penetrating partner may be let off as just doing what guys do, but the one who was penetrated would be disgraced (as in my example). Males who had sex with male slaves may also be let off and not thought of too badly if they were the 'dominant' partner because slaves didn't really count, but it was usually looked down upon as abnormality. In Achilles and Patroclus' case, many looked at it as an example of what war could do, the bonds that warriors shared, as well as their close relationship before the war, so it could be something to be respected - putting yourself totally on the line for a fellow soldier. But in typical society, a man loving another man was not something that could be taken lightly.

Phoenix98 · Accepted Answer

I'm not sure I mean deep and meaningful relationship could also just mean they where like brothers, they had a deep relationship forged trough battle and through trusting each other.

Men and even women in the US military often form a bond like that, with their trench buddies, it's a person they are paired with during their training. And by the end of it the person that started off as a stranger to you by the end of your training they become someone you have a deep bond with, and that you'd trust your life to in battle.

So the relationship between them could have been like that *shrugs* if I had to give a educated guess I would say no though it could defiantly be perceived like that though. A lot of ancient writers made that mistake by assuming some people were lovers when they were in fact not.

lucasnabizada · Accepted Answer

I heard they did... Patroclus was Achilles lover... Which is why it was so enfuryating for Achillies to lose him to Hector

Anonymous · Answer

At that time it was common for straight man to have sex with - at least with certain regulations. Mostly it was between a free man and a slave/catamite/toy boy. The most important thing was, who the dominant and who the submissive partner was. It was unspeakable that the higehr ranked was the penetrated or that the lower ranked was the one penetrating the lower ranked.
It's been a long time since I read the Illias so I can't remember the details.
Also in such stories many things were implied or removed in modern censored version. So fantasies what you think about it ;)

Anpu23 · Answer

That is one of the great debates, there is a brothers in arms that is purely platonic. Homosexuality was also accepted and pretty common, so either is possible. I would think that no, they did not, as both are quite dominant and usually in homosexuality you have one who is dominant and another who is not. But that's purely my opinion.

A-Clockwork-Orange · Answer

Achilles had

akadatank44 · Answer

Are you wishing for something that's not there naughty? 😜 2 men going at it turn you on or what? 😂

ladsin · Answer

I have heard mixed opinions, although it is certain that pederasty was far more common than homosexuality as we view it today.

slimstiffy · Answer

nope. they were just bros. yeah ancient greeks were pretty mich open to homosexuality and even pedophilia (!) , but i doubt most men were gay or bi. i think they were good friends.

martyfellow · Answer

Most people think Greek male friendships were generally platonic, but we will never know...

Anonymous · Answer

I don't think Homer explicitly intended for them to be lovers. Could they have been? Possibly. Even the existence of the war isn't fully determined since there is no specific year and only vague records of wars that happened thousands of years ago.

Tarvold · Answer

They're Greek, so you'd have to assume that they did.

John_Doesnt · Answer

It's debateable whether he even existed. Sex is kind of a myth?

Nik1hil · Answer

WTF ACHILLES WAS GAY...

Anonymous · Answer

noone will ever know. it's like asking "does god exist". noone will ever know, so why ask

COCOCHANEL · Answer

i don't believe so

Jan1ssary_ · Answer

A lot.

jakeofalltrades · Answer

probably

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