How come women's thought processing completely shuts off when you try to talk to them about male issues and/or male experiences? As a guy and I know many other men that really do try to undrstand women. Being alone at night for women is different then being alone at night as a guy. We try to understand rape and abuse from the female point of view. WE know that women have many issues but at least men try to understand.
So why is it women give off this "I don't give a sit about you" vibe? When guys try to explain why men use pickup artistry women just don't care. When I try to explain the idea of the omega male and how it could possibly relate to violence in society you women just brush it off. I even did a my take on omega males and you women brushed it off because you only looked at male suffering through the female lens.
"Who doesn't give a fuck about men?"
How come women literally refuse to even try to understand the male experience?
No idea. I've noticed this too. In general when it comes to men and male issues women give the worst advice, and are the first people to harshly criticise men who just want help. They also discourage men from seeking advice that will actually help them. I'm not sure if it's down to feminism or what, but often they have these arrogant beliefs, this idea that "what women think is right and what men think is stupid".
You see it in their criticisms of male behaviour, masculinity, "toxic masculinity". They seem to believe that men are just stupid, and that if only we were more like women we'd be a lot better. Some of them think that actually we're just like women, but we're holding back because of "silly ideas about masculinity" and because of social conditioning. For some reason they don't see cause and effect. They'll tell men to open up and then will mock them for doing so, and then they say that men and ideas about masculinity are the problem. They also just don't acknowledge that men just aren't the same, that we think differently.
In general I think that actually when it comes to men's issues, you'll actually get the most help and support from other men despite those women talking about how men don't support each other. The people who helped me most were other men. The people who reacted the most negatively towards me when I was struggling were women. They're supposedly the more empathetic gender, however I've often wondered about this for this reason. Maybe they're more empathetic towards children and other women, but not men, for evolutionary reasons. I don't know.
Either way it doesn't matter. You shouldn't take any notice. For example you mentioned PUA stuff - women in general will always be dead against that. Yet, although many PUAs are useless pricks, weirdos, charlatans - the good ones will help you a lot. In that case why even try to justify this to women? It doesn't matter what they think, especially when they'll never understand you nor will they even try to. Just do what you need to do.
That's the problem with most people, they're always trying to argue and justify themselves to other people when they could just do what they need to do regardless. Any guy trying to work on himself to get better with women, confidence, masculinity - all things women don't understand - is going to get some criticism. People will always try to knock you back down. Rather than caring about their opinions just give them the middle finger and get on with it.
I have been in a PUA movement for 6 years, do you want to know the results? 2 girls, and one of them extremely toxic (which I deserved). I have practiced almost all the branches and all finish on the same way, with you being more stupid. (When I say almost all, I say almost all:mystery, gun witch, Ross jeffreiss, juggler, tineo...)
I agree with you in one thing, most of women doesn't take into account male difficulties and world only takes into account female point of view. But it's our problem not theirs, a supposed alpha male must be able to evolution with time. There is no option to blame them.
About results which is the important thing about this.
Learning social habilities is much better that going like a PUA in your life.
About Omega type of men, alpha, beta... I just laugh about it, and I'm a man, but I'm sure I have had more experience with that POV that you.
My advice, learn 3 things and forget about PUA movement: 1. Learn to love yourself 2. Learn to love women 3. Learn social skills
I believe that in order to understand the opposite gender, you need to understand your own first.
Now, you state that "... we try to understand rape and abuse from the female point of view..". That, to me is already a bad start because rape should not be to "try". When you say "to try", that means that you don't grab the understanding of being raped, of what trauma a person has to go through, how scared she (or he for that matter) the person can be. With the word "try" you imply that it is not so important. You try but you don't succeed in understand.
If you would have understood the trauma of being raped, you would have said "... we are aware of the trauma you must go through..."
Now, as for women not understanding men's "vibes" and they use "pick up artistry", that gives me a bitter feeling that it all relates to women being sexualized since they get their breasts and are old enough to be penetrated.
You see, I try to understand men psychology but it seems that everything revolves always around sex and the perception that each gender has of it.
In your example, it is how women fear to be the prey of the sexualization and the "art of pickup" while men cannot understand that the same art does not automatically lead to rape.
I guess that if women were not raped because some needed to be pick up artists, the world and the understanding of both genders would be much simplified.
If only sex could be left out of the relation, the understanding of both genders would be so much simplified.
I don't think anyone can truly understand how it feels to be raped without going through it themselves. We can sympathize and be there for you, but for someone to say that they trully understand when it never happened to them, is a lie. So yes I will try to understand, in other words have feeling for your pain without never experienced it myself.
This is kinda the exact reason he asked this question, or at least from my perspective it is. A majority of women think that men revolve around sex and live their lives by it, likely due to our media coverage like movies and television. Now as stated, we only "try" to understand rape, because it's near impossible to understand something you haven't gone through yourself (even though many men get raped and don't report it, but that's another discussion). And with pick up artistry, a lot of men feel the need use pick up lines and such, not to sexualize women, but to fit in and try a method that has be proven to work and then blown out of proportion by the media such as movies and television. So it seems like the only option when men are generally thought to be the ones that have to make the first move. This would be much simpler if men weren't thought of as sexual beings. Yes some may be, but they have been blown out of proportion and now it seems that society is pushing a bad stereotype on a lot of innocent men. A lot of women are also falsely stereotyped in this type of question, but as to your response I will leave that part of the discussion out.
So as an overview, from what I see from your response is exactly why we feel like women don't try to understand men if you say that you do. Men aren't all overtly sexual beings and your stereotype of us being so makes us instantly lose respect for you. Yes, some women can be very good at trying to understand as they've had similar experiences but they usually come in without a previous opinion that makes them think less of us as a whole. You have some valid points, but your reasoning behind them is beyond ludacris.
and you will see how a lady feels when she is being treated being a plus size person.
I don't think our experiences are exceptions. Perhaps that after reaching a certain age, the over sexualization of women tends to disappear but at a teenager age and up to perhaps the late 20s it is reality.
I am not a dude and I’m not gonna pretend like I am. I am open to taking in anyone’s story but if I hear bullshit, I’m calling you out. Point blank period. Regarding your take—why is it that you completely neglect to expose how the men were responding to your article? There were more men attacking you than supporting you. Most of the comments men and women, were very harsh but they also had one theme in common; you cannot use bullying as an excuse hurt (innocent) people. You cannot use bad luck as a reason for being a manipulative asshole. No matter who you are or what gender you were born with. You play the cards you are dealt with—even when they are shitty. That is what life is about. It’s not about getting fed up and cutting corners when you can’t have your way.
There are so many issues in the world and yes, men get their fair share. But complaining and lashing out instead of actually doing something to help yourself (or others around you) only adds on the problem... starts whole new problems too.
And one of those problems is the fact that men themselves approach each other with the most toxic and condescending mentality of who’s better than who. That alpha beta shit has to go. You will never be satisfied in life constantly parading in your superiority complex.
Honestly? It's immature to say that ALL women don't care about what men go through because like male feminists, there are women who advocate for men.
I think that there are gender roles we still subscribe to – even if we are more advanced than ever – because we as a society don't want to shake up the status quo.
Men are supposed to be logical, women are supposed to be driven by their emotions. Men are supposed to be tough and aggressive and face adversity with a smile, while women need men to take care of them. You see? It sounds barbaric but these are the lessons being taught to us through Disney movies, romance novels, our parents' dynamic, etc.
We see that men have terrible things happen to them – like sexual abuse and domestic violence – but for some reason, since we were kids, we were taught that men shouldn't be vocal about emotional issues because not being emotional is "what they're supposed to do."
It's because we have to change our attitudes and stop looking at gender. We have to look at the person who is talking about their experiences, not what they identify as.
I care for humans. I don't care if you're a man or a woman or anything in between, if you are a victim of domestic violence, sexual assault, etc – I care about how to help you through the hard times because you're a human who deserves that respect.
I think that's why it seems like people don't care about mens issues, because we look at it through gendered glasses, when we should be looking at the issue, not who is talking about it.
Evolutionary psychology [EP] points to women avoinding agency as a mode of survival, due to their physical deficiency against harshness of nature. So even if it meant that the men that they procreated with had to constantly put his life at risk for her and children, that was how it had to be for survival.
Women don't actually have social responsibility, or social duty to anything other than themselves or maybe their children. And the more exclusively gynocentric the society, the less women even want children. Because, they don't want the responsibility. Benevolence and consideration as a suitable life partner are usually granted quickly. But men? Well, we are the objects of accountability, responsibility, and success, even when there is no clear cut path to obtaining such masculinity. Otherwise, we're not considered a real man even in the eyes of women, or a suitable partner.
As much as women feel they do everything to avoid the reputation of slut or bad with children, they still get passes there particularly with the slut thing. I mean there's the slut walk now. But this is a symptom of , again, that owning up to their sexual and social dominance as and their power as moral arbiters in virtually any society, means "agency". And female EP suggests that agency means no survival for self.
This is an easy one... Generally, women can't grasp the concept that what they think and feel is different than what men think and feel. Science shows the same thing in infants under 3 and monkeys.
When a child hides a toy behind it's back, when they bring it out front they won't wait for you to pick which one you think it's in, they will instantly open their hand because they know it's in which hand and therefore you must also know. This changes after 3.
Monkeys who know sign language will never ask a question they don't know the answer to already, because they can't grasp the idea that you could know something they don't.
This is the same with women. They are emotional and therefore constantly piss and moan about "why do men hide their emotions", "Society tells men not to cry"... etc. Completely ignorant to the fact that we simply deal with emotions differently than they do.
When they are triggered by male fantasy (porn) and are completely ignorant to the idea that they just finished watching a chick flick or reading 50 shades which is the exact same premise but since they are mentally stimulated and fantasize about emotion, romance, sex, etc they see male visual porn the way they work which is by comparing themselves to the women in the video, they don't see that men don't compare them to other women and porn is simply entertainment, male visual fantasy about sex.
Women see pickup artistry as a violation because it allows men to circumvent their bullshit walls and shit tests that they put us through before actually getting to know us. They don't see that males have been reduced to doing this because of all the games and shit tests they have created.
Reading the title I was gonna tell you how I do care about male issues, then I read about the omega bullshit and pickup lines? Man... no wonder women just ignore that. Talk about how men get screwed over when it comes to custody rights, or how men get screwed over in court. How men are less trusted in society etc. Not a lot of women let alone a lot of men believe and agree with the alpha beta bullshit. And pick up lines? What...
That's an erroneous assumption. Also, the alpha/beta/omega archetype is toxic towards men and should NOT be used. The reason why men take a violent approach to things is because 1) society encourages them to be violent instead of diplomatic 2) men are demeaned for not being aggressive and more.
There's also no excuse to use PUA because it is provokes a negative and objectifying view of women. The hookup culture has increased men's chances of being laid with no attachment. I'm sure you have valid reasons to believe what you do though.
Finally, your experience does not emulate all other men's experiences. You can't extrapolate a singular experience onto all men (just like you're extrapolating some behavior from women onto all women).
I'm willing to listen and learn, but not from irrationality.
That's entirely inaccurate (and kind of proves his point). Those archetypes while not entirely accurate are not entirely inaccurate either. They are a short hand explanation for behaviors and peoples response to those behaviors and as such are a good basic understanding of male behavior i. e. being confident attracts women and gets people to respond positively to you (alpha) being submissive and a people pleaser gets you looked down on and used (beta) etc.
As for society encouraging men to be violent if that was the case why isn't society a much more violent place? In the US their are about 16 to 17 thousand murders a year in a nation of 325 million. That's.005% of the population i. e. negligible (still something that should be dealt with but not even close to an epidemic or sever issue (you will never have a perfect society). Out of all of those about 10,000 of them are black on black violence and that itself is motivated primarily due to fatherlessness. So violence is not being pushed by society, its fairly rare and the overwhelming majority of violence is commited by men who where abandoned by their family.
Also what part of society is encouraging violence? Is it women? I would also point out that 70% of all nonreciprocal violence between intimate partners is perpetrated by women against men so violence is most definitely not something that is unique to men (as you are suggesting and as most women try to claim). So by that reasoning does this then not mean that society encourages women to be violent (After all they are more likely to abuse their partner (multiple studies have shown this to be the case) and are more likely to be abusive towards children)?
Men are not demeaned for not being aggressive, they are encouraged to be ASSERTIVE which is entirely different. Women will not be with a man who is not assertive and confident, that is why other men encourage men to be assertive. Its to get them a chance to move up in society and to get a chance with women.
You have the MGTOW (men going their own way) which states the same things as MRM's but believe that due to these laws (especially when dealing with marriage as women initiate divorce the overwhelming majority of the time and are the clear beneficiaries of such an act as well as the lack of reproductive rights of men) a man should just stay away from women all together because women are dangerous and will never support men. Then you have the pick up artist community where half of them are men who are frustrated because they did exactly what women said and were the nice guys and have because of listenting to womens advice failed in their romantic endevours, and the other half which are angry for the same reasons as the other two groups so they only want to get sex out of women because they feel that women will abuse them, cheat on them and then destroy them economically with the aid of the government so the only thing they want from women is sex to get rid of the urges and that's it. So you have all of these groups stating the exact same things (in different ways, some are diplomatic, some are very much not) and their experiences mirror each other and what the poster has stated. In all of them women have stated consistently that women are essentially perfect, that their is nothing that women have done that is wrong (as your own argument shows, everything is some one elses fault, its "society"(men) or its men's fault or its the individual males fault for being hateful towards women or what have you), that women don't need to listen to men because they are just "bitter/whining/sexist/misogynists etc.". This is the issue and you have shown that yes, he absolutely has a point in your complete refusal to try and understand mens perspective and acknowledge that maybe their are things women can work on too.
They are not basic understanding of male behavior because not all men are similar nor fit into such categories. What it does is demean men.
Society is MORE violent today than the past due to mass media encouraging men to be violent, suppression of positive emotions, lack of proper emotional regulation, unjust pressures put upon men and more.
Men are demeaned for not being aggressive: society sees them as weak and unworthy of being called men.
You have said nothing honestly. The two groups are irrational and show extremist views which allowed men to treat women as property.
Also, you’ve made some assumptions. Society includes women and there are certainly many women that continue promote toxic masculinity, force men to suppress their emotions out of dislike and more. That is not only men.
Black on black violence due to fatherlessness? There is much more that affects that and therein lies your ignorance. (Not to mention that there is MORE white in white violence than black on black).
I said I am willing to listen to reason but all you have shown is irrationality to me. What I have said is logical (even indicating that he might have valid reasons for believing as he does). Not ALL men are subjected to his proposed male experience while all men are forced to prove themselves worthy in the eyes of others (or be demeaned).
"There's also no excuse to use PUA because it is provokes a negative and objectifying view of women."
If it helps a guy get laid, why is it such a big deal if he uses PUA tactics? I'm not talking about the harmful pua tactics that border on sexual harassment/assault, I'm just talking about things like pumping&dumping, lying to women/telling them what they wanna hear so they'll fuck you, talking to multiple women at once, etc. I fail to see how those are bad.
You fail to see how using manipulative tactics for personal gain is bad? Causing psychological and emotional distress to another individual which can cause an innocent wo/man to go out and do something similar to a good wo/man? It's a cycle of destruction that harms innocent people but if you can't see that, well...
It's also hypocritical (how many times have plenty of you decried women on here for the same). Personally, any wo/man that feels that he has to do it is a loser to me. There is no need to manipulate people to get laid and you can "talk" to multiple wo/men and be honest that you're doing it.
I have seen many men do this and completely respect them for doing it because they are open and honest about it.
If were honest to every single woman I met, I wouldn't ever get laid. If a girl asks me if I'm talking to anyone else, I'll lie to her and say no. The reason I do this is because that way if things dont work out, then I can immediately move onto someone else. If that isn't the case and we end up getting serious, then I simply ghost the other girl I was talking to.
When it comes to dating, men have the short end of the stick, so we have to play dirty or else we don't succeed.
That's sad in your case. I've seen it work with men that I don't consider attractive at all. If you feel good about lying to someone for a selfish base need, then I hope you understand that if something similar happens to you (a woman is cruelly manipulative), that you honestly reflect.
Or don't. It's your life.
Honestly, I don't see men having the short end of the stick. I see a number of men having trouble but nowhere near the amount that many seem to suggest on GaG. We have to disagree on that point.
Like I said, the dating scene is largely rigged against men, so we gotta play dirty if we wanna succeed. Its not something women will understand.
"Honestly, I don't see men having the short end of the stick. I see a number of men having trouble but nowhere near the amount that many seem to suggest on GaG. We have to disagree on that point."
Well they won't admit to it because they'll just get made fun of.
Or they honestly believe it. So you're fine with women being manipulative for selfish reasons too then? Gold diggers, for example. Preying on innocent people because of a selfish desire.
No I'm not okay with women being gold diggers or manipulating men, but I know its not gonna stop anytime soon, so there's no use in complaining about it. It's like complaining about a baby pooping its diaper. The baby doesn't know any better, its just going with its instincts.
Also its not like I enjoy hurting people. But you gotta do what you gotta do.
Inaccurate. We are less violent today then we have ever been in the entire history of our species. Also again, that violence rate is astronomically small. As for society, yes it absolutely does include women but women often exclude themselves from "society" acting as if its separate from themselves. As for your "Toxic masculinity" why is masculinity toxic? Is femininity toxic or is it just men who are inherently "toxic"? Their is no such thing as toxic masculinity, men are not told to represss their feelings, that's something that women claim because men do not act like women (as we are biologically VERY different (genetically we are as different from women as humans are to chimpanzees (about 2.7% genetic difference)). Men absolutely express their emotions but because they don't do it like women, women like you decide that its "toxic" and demand that men start acting like women. That's sexism and also proves the point being made, that women, such as yourself, completely dismiss the male experience. As for the whole "alpha/beta/omega" yes people do vary but that's why I said their is some truth to them because as much as people vary they are also very similar and their are certain behaviors that can and are categorized. This is a short hand to describe them and while they are not absolute they do convey the general idea. As for the claim of aggression, again, no. We do not demand that men be aggressive that is patently false. What is expected is for men to step up and take charge, we demand that they be in control of their emotions. See as I pointed out women are far more abusive in relationships then men are, now they can get away with that (women justify it all the time by claiming to be weaker) because of strength differences. But if a man gave into his emotions, if he gave into his anger what would happen? She would die.
He is substantially stronger and more resilient so if he acted out on his anger for instance, unlike a woman the damage done would be substantially greater and so he is taught to control his emotions NOT to ignore them (that is the exact opposite of what men are taught). He is taught to control them and direct them in a positive way rather then destructive (unlike women who are allowed free reign because society looks down on men so they don't care that women are so abusive towards them). Again, you refuse to try and understand men, you have already judged us as being inferior to you and needing to be "fixed". This is further proven by the fact that you would dismiss what three different mens groups (with many many people apart of them) say as just claiming they are sexist. Women have never been treated as property ever, that is entirely false and INCREDIBLY sexist to say that. This is yet again, another example of you doing exactly what you claim women don't do which is to deny and ignore male experiences.
As for your claim about black on black violence, no actually we do know that its fatherlessness this is beyond question. We know this because as fatherlessness increases so to does violence, academic failure, poverty, substance abuse and promiscuity (thus perpetuating the problem). We see it in every group where fatherlessness is present and considerably less in groups where its less common (like Asians). We see it in children of divorce as well. We know its not discrimination because the richest groups in the US are all minorities (Asian and jewish mostly) and we know that African immigrants out earn white natives by a substantial degree (for instance irish americans make on average about 60,000 a year, dutch americans make about 54,000 French americans make about 52,000 a year. Meanwhile Ghanian americans make about 70,000 a year and Nigerian americans make about 75,000 a year). So again, we know exactly what the issues are and it is fatherlessness.
As for your claim on white on white crime that is actually incorrect. See if your going by full population sure, but that's like saying British people are more likely to commit crimes in Britain, obviously they are the largest population. Its a pointless argument to make. If we look at percentages, 63% of the US is white, 17% is Hispanic and 13% is black. Despite this blacks make up about 50%(give a few points depending on year) of all murderers, over 70% of all robberies and violent crimes, they make up slightly more then 26% of all hate crimes (twice that of their population) etc. That means that the bulk of all crime is commited by one of the smallest communities (one which did not have this issue in the 50s so we know that its escalated as fatherlessness has escalated). So all you have done currently is show your own ignorance (I wouldn't have pointed that out except for your seeming elitism and tendency to try and tell me how ignorant I am (despite the fact that I have clearly researched this topic far more then you have (nothing wrong with that except in that you are attempting to belittle me and act as if you are superior (yet again proving the previous point that you and women like you refuse to try and understand men and their experiences).
As for your claims of manipulation, do you think women don't manipulate men all the time? I mean if a guy is upfront with a woman that he only wants sex and she goes along with it hoping to change his mind, isn't she the one trying to manipulate and take advantage of him? If you look at marriage over 70% of divorces are filed by women yet 80% of alimony and child support is paid by men, isn't that manipulative? Isn't make up manipulative as you are actively trying to make yourself look better then you normally do?
So your against all of these things that exploit and manipulate men right? What about the court ruling of Hermsmann vs seyer which states that no matter the circumstances a man is always responsible for paying child support (in this particular ruling it was a 12 year old boy who was raped by his babysitter who was forced to pay her, again his rapist, child support) which women have used to manipulate men into paying up by stealing their sperm (from a sperm bank in a couple of cases) from a used condom, by telling them they where on the pill when they where not (over 40% of women surveyed (out of 5,000) stated they would lie about being on a contraceptive to get pregnant, 50% said they would lie about the paternity of their child in order to stay with some one). Is this despicable to you? It should be but I feel like you would probably find a way to defend it (or blame men for it as you have consistently done so far). Acting as if only men are manipulative is absurd and quite frankly from most data that we have is false. Men are generally speaking upfront about what they want, its women who do the most manipulation (like lying about being pregnant in order to get a guy to stay with them for instance (sadly more common then it should be). So is this an example of toxic femininity and manipulation or are you going to claim that only men can be toxic?
As for men not having the short end of the stick, 80% of the homeless are men, 80% of suicides are men, 97% of workplace accidents and deaths are men, 98% of combat deaths are men, 70% of all violent crime victims are men (and the more violent the crime the more likely the victim will be male), 70% of domestic violence victims are male (despite this we have exactly 1 domestic violence shelter for men in the US and society refuses to recognize male victims),
37% of college graduates are male and males are 4x more likely to drop out of school, this is mostly likely due to the active feminization of education and outright discrimination (boys get lower grades for the same answers compared to girls), their are 4x more scholarships and grants for women then their are for men, this despite the fact that we continue to state how we need more women in college and to be educated, its legal to mutilate the genitals of males at infancy against their will despite the fact that their is no medical need for it and they are in fact more likely to bleed to death from the procedure (not to mention the many occurences that end up emasculating them (removal of the penis) then to ever need it for medical reasons, it is illegal to do the same to women, men are as likely as women to be raped (by a woman) according to the CDC and NCVS studies despite this we refuse to acknowledge them as victims, ironically the only real "rape culture" that exists, males on average pay 200x more in taxes then women over their life time, 80% of domestic spending is done by women despite them being only responsible for about 30-40% of domestic earnings, etc. etc. I think the statistical data would suggest that you are incorrect, men most definitely do get the short stick in this society (and are the only group openly ridiculed and hated on (and told that they are inherently toxic by people like yourself for having the audacity of being born male).
1) Society does more to discourage male aggression than it does to encourage. We are the least violent society to have ever existed, and it's largely owing to the fact that male aggression has been channelled away from violent pursuits (warfare, feudal conflicts, intra-tribal vendettas, bloodsports, etc.) and into nonviolent pursuits (business, contact sports, fitness/workout culture, etc.)
2) "alpha/beta/omega archetype is toxic to men"-- says whom? I'm not read up on this particular literature, but pointing out the existence of male status hierarchies as a predictor reproductive success is consistent with our current knowledge of biology, psychology, etc.
3) Men are not demeaned for not being aggressive; although they are rejected by women for being too passive. In some highly stressful environments (eg: an inner city ghetto or favela/ slum), then "macho" depictions of hyper-masculinity are indeed worn as a kind of 'armour'. But this is more an adaptation to the constant stress and danger in that environment, rather than a consequence of some fundamental "shaming of non-aggression" within the universal male psyche. Given the right milieu, men can thrive in more 'diplomatic' social environments, although many will still feel an instinctive desire to compete, or to climb the competence ladder through carefully channelled aggression (ie: getting shit done).
4) "There's also no excuse to use PUA because it is provokes a negative and objectifying view of women." Wrong. While a certain % of 'puas' use their new skillset as a means of perpetuating their pre-existing negative beliefs around women... the majority of the PUA community is focused more on self improvement, and of accepting (rather than resisting) the truth about female nature/ psychology/ what women respond to, etc.
"You can't extrapolate a singular experience onto all men"-- I can agree with this, although sounds like OP pointing out a recurring pattern, not a singular event
My mom is very liberal and follows feminist beliefs (second wave, I believe), and I run into this a lot.
Two things tend to happen:
1. Tribalism (an aspect of it). "My side has problems and if we focus on your side's stuff then my side will never get help." If I say something bad happens to men, she'll explain why women have it worse.
2. I forget the word for it. Choosing to believe things that fit with what you already believe. She believes deeply that "threat of sexual violence is a tool that the patriarchy uses to oppress women." Because of this, when I tried to state that men are also sexually assaulted by women at high rates, she rejected it flatly (I sent here some crime statistics, she hasn't said what she believes since then, but seemed surprised).
I can not relate to this because I feel I have understood the best I can male issues. I had a few guy friends cry on my shoulder or open up about abuse and rape. Maybe because of my similar experiences I could be empathetic to them. I don't see a man as weak who shows his emotions. I see him as strong because I know it isn't easy for men to show they are emotional. I'd like to think other women think the way I do but I can't speak for all of them.
As far as understanding pickup artistry, what's to understand other than it's a system used to attract and seduce sexual partners? And how is that a male issue?
And when I think of omega men I think of like super hero's. Lol! Again, not sure how that's a male issue.
I think it's because in most cases a man is simply incapable (biologically) to truly understand the way a woman thinks or how they feel. Although a man can be raped, unless it actually happens to you then you truly have no idea of the psychological destruction it is capable of. Only another rape survivor can truly sympathize and understand, even a little bit how they feel. I'm not trying to man bash any of you who truly care and want to do everything you can to help eliminate rape, but gentlemen please remember that the worst thing you can do is to pretend to understand something that you have never experienced.
You didn't actually answer the question though... you just circled the block and made it about women... Like here it is! Exhibit A of the OP's question.
Thats inaccurate. Having been raped I can say most women don't understand it (which is why 70% of women have rape fantasies, they cannot grasp what rape really is), men on the other hand are repulsed by the idea so much that inmates will kill rapists who got to prison (its that taboo). Also the question was why do women refuse to try to understand men which is exactly what you did by making this all about women.
Honestly growing up female I thought guys were disgusting creatures and I wondered why’d they do such a thing. It’s hard for women to understand the way the male mind thinks... unless it’s a situation like mine, where I discovered that I actually had a male brain. I came to realize why men do certain things and sometimes its hard to control them. Not saying it makes it acceptable, just saying we work different. Being taught to be a female, I always was so lovey-dovey, wine and a movie. Now sometimes I start to see people as someone I want to bang, instead of all that love and romance because now my d**k talks more than my heart... it makes me feel disgusting but it seems that’s the way it sometimes works. Or such as, women wonder why men are always so angry. We’re afraid to show our emotions, to cry, to actually feel, and suddenly it just explodes as anger because we don’t know how to show it... yeah. Men are actually complex creatures.
Full disclosure. I saw that take and kept scrolling. Mostly because those types of takes are almost always whiny. But to your point about women refusing to try and see something from the Male point of view. I'm not sure I'd say women refuse to try, but most women just assume they can't and would rather defer to a trusted Male figure to get their thoughts directly. Then if they've talked to enough guys on a type of situation or given issue, then theyll sort of aggregate a male point of view concept.
Could just be a matter of how women generally think vs how guys generally think.
Do you think there are some guys who are less secure and confident than others? Some that are more athletically gifted? Some that are more socially dominant?
And that there are also some male who are the opposite?
But if you have a peer reviewed scientific article disproving that some males are more athletically gifted, confident, and socially intelligent, I would love to read it.
Women only care about the issues they face, and they actively ignore men work and feel.
My example is waking up in college to someone on top of me, and she had already succeeded in unzipping my pants and was attempting to have sex with me.
Guess what? Women told me I'm a guy I'm supposed to like it. They had no empathy. But if the genders were reversed they'd be calling for rape charges.
The most infuriating part is when women want us to bend over backwards to accommodate every little emotion they have, while simultaneously telling men our feelings are invalid.
4
4 Reply
Opinion Owner
+1 y
All the female downvotes prove women don't take sex abuse against men seriously
Not all women would act in that manner just the narrow minded 21st century so called feminists, so once against I say don't tarnish us all with same brush.
Excuse you but you don't know me if you did you would know that there are both males and females in my family who have suffered sexual abuse at a young age, so again don't tarnish us all with same brush.
The simple explanation is that they simply do not care about you in any way, shape, or form. They are only with you, or associate with you, or hang with you due to what ever it is you can do for them, provide for them, or make them feel.
It's never about your soul, who you are, or what person you are beneath, only about what you can offer. It's just the way it is hence why many men will find themselves ditched if they lose their job, get ill, or are unable to provide. Some exceptions will be due to obsession, codependency or other issues. As always, there will be other exceptions too, but not many.
This is why I dont bother explaining things to women. They either don't get it, or they refuse to understand. Their privilege blinds them from ever trying to understand men's upbringing.
Whenever there is a thread talking about men's issues, it's almost always derailed by women going "but wut about me?:((" or by some feminist trolling and saying "Lul male tearz, quit whining manbaby, us women have it worse"
I found its mostly been other men that are more empathetic towards discussing men's experiences.
0
0 Reply
Anonymous
(36-45)
+1 y
Men aren't really much more than livestock or servants to most women. You don't think about the issues of a draft horse's existence, you just hitch him to the wagon.
Look at the holidays. Men are pressured to give extravagant gifts and grand gestures of love. Women give cheap, thoughtless, often self-serving gifts and go about their day. Women expect to be treated to a fancy meal on their holidays, and then expect men to cook or pay on their own. When was the last time you heard of a woman giving her man a romantic massage or a candlelight dinner? How about buying him that car he always wanted? Or anything fancy at all? No? Why not?
Because we are the providers, the protectors, the security, the romance... women are the recievers and we are the givers, and that's the one thing in the realm of "traditional values" that they support. And I've still yet to get an answer, from any woman on this site, to my question of how a woman adds value to a man's life in any way.
That's up to the individual man to decide if he finds any value of having a woman in his life. I know a man wouldn't add any value to mine currently--just more stress.
@AuroraRoseat I'm not talking about the subjective value that he finds in her. I'm talking about how she objectively makes his life better, easier, more convenient, or more profitable.
Usually, a woman is looking for help in her life, not looking to be any help in his.
I have gone from having several thousand dollars in savings with no debt to approximately $20,000 in debt not including a vehicle payment. When we worked the same hours for the same employer, he drove most of the time, so I was able to get 30 minutes extra rest for six months and 5 minutes extra rest for one year.
These are the only objective aspects I can identify of my 8 year relationship (5 years cohabitating) with a man. Everything else is subjective.
I can’t answer the question because it is not applicable to me. Almost all my close friends are male and I put in quite some effort to make sure that I understand how they feel when they’re going through a rough patch. I value their emotions equal to my girl friends’ emotions, because they are equally valid.
Two possibilities: A.) from the female POV, a guy who needs her validation & understanding is unworthy of her attention. B.) Too self-centered C.) Both
Welcome to the male club. Now you know why guy’s don’t share 95% of their feelings with women
Because the male experience doesn't serve their interests. Women think only about themselves because society tells them that they have a golden vagina. They want to have it all and will never be satisfied.
I love all the triggered women down voting this opinion because they take personal offence as if they are spoken to. And their white knights of course who think they can get laid by worshipping the golden vagina.
As many other women have said- rape and abuse is whole heartedly different from being an “omega male”. Sit the fuck down and come back when you TRULY understand.
You're exemplifying exactly what he was saying. Even if women's issues let you win the oppression olympics, that doesn't mean there aren't others struggling with problems unworthy of being heard -- especially when they're trying to relate it to your problems.
@AllThatSweetJazz That's the exact issue. Had he not compared those things to women being raped and abused, he probably would have gotten better responses.
@Kas19 This is it may not look great, but it is a legitimate thing to say because it's not about what the problems are, it's about the fact that we all have problems and should be heard. Yes, he may have gotten better responses by choosing different issues, but that would also be ignoring the fullness of the issue he's getting at. By choosing rape, it presents a reality women have to confront in which even in the face of this awful thing that is rape being an issue in society, they still have to accept that other people have problems too. It seems like women are playing into this when they're here essentially saying apparent victimization (not even necessarily the individuals themselves) trumps things men face.
It's exactly because the responses would probably be better that I'm not sure that avoiding rape would be better in the end because this is apparently the area where the problem is more apparent.
When a girl left me, I didn't know why it felt like "this is like rape". But that was how I felt, while feeling it was absurd and totally unjustified. But then I'd heard that women are the gatekeepers of sex, while men are the gatekeepers of commitment. When a man commits, he commits. Most often, there is no "I'm unhappy", or "I'm bored". You're basically his life, or an integral part of it. He'd use himself to shield you from bullets if it came down to that.
But women either don't see this, or they take it for granted as if they're owed this and proceed to not value it. They abuse it. And this explains why men statistically recover from breakups much slower than women, if they ever do fully recover. Where a women will seriously date weeks after a breakup, it may take a man years. It's no wonder why mgtow resonates with men of such a wide range of ages, both young and older. Mgtow comes from divorcees who also suffer from the legal support for this type of behaviour. So they find no help and no one really to talk to about such a personal, psychological violation that they've fallen victim to. And regardless of whether the relationship was a marraige or not, or regardless if any legal action was taken against him, many men still commit suicide after these breakups; because the trauma and pain are that deep.
So I think in many cases, I think it's at least somewhat warrented to compare the plight of men and women on the level of mental trauma.
To clarify what I mean by "when a man commits he commits", it's not that he'll never actully feel any unhappiness or boredom. But it's that his commitment is such that he he will overcome all that to stay loyal in spite of having those kinds of struggles as well as all others. And he simply means it.
Most woman sit in ABUSE but rape is something BOTH genders face men are just are looked at as weak for even bringing up their were raped so how are you trying to say that's worse not every woman is raped nor do they face dangers so you sut down and shut up
@Lightning8 okay what you said was entirely ridiculous. When your girlfriend left you you COMPARED IT TO RAPE? Are you retarded? Also, LMAO. Men are often the ones who initiate divorce. Both genders are “gatekeepers” of commitment. Check the statistics- women are more likely loyal. Do not fucking compare being dumped to having your body entered without your permission and violated. Men may try to understand rape trauma, but you certainly dont. @Fuentes uhhh... almost no percentage of rape victim are men- and studies show women do not have that “rape her!!” Part of the brain men do. Also, a woman can very rarely overpower a man. There are instances, yes, but not as often and as easy as it is vice versa.
@Fuentes Yes, rape is something both genders face, but at the end of the day, women are raped more often than men, and men there are more male rapists than female. Not to say female rapists don't exist.
Honestly everything after that was fucking ridiculous. No one said every woman is raped. We are saying that comparing rape to "Pick up artistry" is stupid and he should be ashamed of himself for even doing that. Love how your only response after that was "sit* down and shut up"
@Kas19 @Valiant you guy's are both being extremely sexist going off STATS mem rape men and womem rape women too but see of a man is raped by either gender ge won't come out and talk about it... because society doesn't care or sees it as weak i know for sure if i was raped you won't catch me talking about it but that woudn't happen of course and also no MEN do not have the rape her both genders do... some people don't understand WRONG or RIGHT.. And like i said if women rape women you're saying it's in their head too? You guys are and disrespectful and both deserve cats for the rest of your lifes
Well, it would seem like an honest attempt to understand a position or perspective different from your own might feature more questions than insults.
I thought I was being fair when I mentioned how I initially believed such a comparison was unjustified or absurd. But it's almost as if my comment wasn't actually read.
Also Valiant, "Men are often the one's who initiate divorce"... Well sure, about 20%. "Women are more likely loyal". If you say so, but certainly not after her s. o. cries in front of her, or demonstrates that he doesn't have complete control over a personal struggle, or loses his job.
@Lightning8 The hell? My boyfriend has cried multiple times and has had many failures in front of me. I don't know where this misconception of "men can't cry or women hate them!!" came from. I dont know a single woman who thinks that way.
@Well that's your experience. Countless guy have expressed that once they do accept their girlfriend's invitation to open up and be vulnerable with her, she loses interest/attraction and soon leaves. Evidently women don't think that way cognitively, they just do that, perhaps unintentionally. Because loving her partner is not the obligation or responsibility that it is for a man. And so she will avoid accountability, such that the man will blame himself, or feel regretful that it's somehow his fault.
I don't think rape is the same as being an omega male. But as I've stated, in many cases I think it's at least somewhat warrented to compare the unique plights of men and women on the level of mental trauma. So maybe one could possibly point out very specific similarities on that dimension of mental hurt, or being taken advantage of by the more powerful sex.
So, again for whatever reason the relationship breaks down and the woman is free to date other guys, relatively soon after her boyfriend opens up and shows his weaknesses and vulnerabilities to her.
Often we may make metaphorical similarities, but male and female experiences are obviously inherently unique. Hence, I feel in some cases it's appropriate to make similarities between two unique situations in order to connect our expriences, to relate to and understand each other better.
Nope you said only men wanna rape women, i said that's not true nen rape men too and women also rape women so it's not just a thing men think about. Doing and i said the reasons we don't hear about these cases because most men are not gonna talk about it so again it's not just a thing that men think of doing nor is it only targeted for females... funny you think every female will be raped haha not even true were you raped?
Your right about how there are some women who act like this, mostly like are those who are extremists ‘feminists’ (IMO they are not real feminists), I don’t know why they are like that.
But referring to the “pickup artistry”, are talking about catcalling or flirting or pickup lines? Because depending on the women herself could have possibly had a negative experience from it, for example maybe some flirting with a guy lead to her being drugged (obviously this is an extreme example). And plus catcalling in general can come off as rude and over-sexualised. So this might be one of the reasons you’re receiving that “vibe”.
I, myself am not sure about the “omega male”, mainly because I didn’t even know that those personalities traits (?) were a thing. Overall though it depends on the women and their upbringing and possible personalities traits they may have.
Oi, I even read echhi and manga, and of course study (personal) male psychology. But what exactly "male experiences" in your perspective anyways? I would like to read your take about Omega. Could you paste a link, please?
With the collapse of society and social mores, we now see woman's raw innate survival instincts distorted by privilege. “why is it women give off this "I don't give a sit about you" vibe?” because that is their real human nature. It is just life and if you don’t have a golden penis, they don’t care. Sex and relationships (lmao) are derived from mutual benefit and that is the center of human nature.
Well all women and men are different so the amount of attention you get when you’re having issues all depends on the kind of people you choose to surround yourself with. Also, the two example you’ve stated aren’t even within the same ballpark. All problems should receive attention and they shouldn’t be ignored but you can’t bring up rape and assault and then expect it to get the same amount of attention as pick up artistry and the idea of the omega male.
They're more selfishly inclined than us when it comes to certain things. It's biologically ingrained and don't let the SJW's tell you otherwise. Believe what you can see... which you already do see it, obviously. I'm mean my statement here is vice versa dude... How come I'd rather level up my Division 2 build, than spend my time at a stupid family party?
Most of us get it off the bat. The rest..."the world may never know."
As a 'guy' and posting as "Jennifer_32" with a female-looking picture? Makes me wonder, a lot, about your post, and credibility!! So just a Troll, posting this fake, BS male 'Omega Male' load of shit, in a different package? Dude, you can wrap that shit in bows, and glitter, and anything, and it is still BULLSHIT, and a pathetic excuse, and non-male, loser kind of crap to post!!
A. if you want to retort dont go anon, be accountable for your own words. b. no, but in my experience what he says is true (i live with 3 women) c. not all women are like this, but there are those that are, from the women i know about 3/4 are (not all)
Right and you know about 1000 women at least then I assume? Considering there are billions you would need a good 1000 to reach that sort of conclusion.
nope, but out of the ones thaat i do know I've not been wrong yet. give you for an example, you demand that because i didn't do a detailed survey of every woman on earth i am wrong, instead of saying hmm, why do guys think this? maybe stand back and look at this from their perspective?
@AllThatSweetJazz if you are going to say what you believe in or go against what someone says you should at least have the decency to say it straight to them, not hiding behind anon.
@JamesBoradil03 "you should at least have the decency to say it straight to them, not hiding behind anon." It's all a joke though, you're not in front of me, I don't know who you are. You believing you're displaying any decency to me right now simply by not clicking anon is nonsense. It's ridiculous to care about that instead of focusing on someone's ideas. Going anon does nothing but prevent close-minded people from dismissing you out of hand -- and that makes it a good thing.
@AllThatSweetJazz no goin anon means you dont have the decency to be accountable to your words. i can say anything i want under a mask, but there's only certain things id want hekd to my name. so if i truly believed in something i would have the decency of being accountable to it
Being anon means nothing. We are all anon. I know fuck all about you just because you post with a username and a photo.. and great I see you are 16 which explains a few things too.
@JamesBoradil03 You're not accountable though, no one knows who you are here. No one cares, even that's your real name, they don't care and nor should they because it's the merit of the ideas that matters. You fabricating some sense of superiority from being slightly less anon is your own doing. A counter-argument doesn't need and identity. It's all just about a stick you have up your butt about anonymity. Finally, being anon in this day and age is only going to be more important moving forward. We probably shouldn't be sharing any shred of our identity online if it can be helped. Your sense of "decency" here is anachronistic.
@Edanurus Because the art of having empathy, understanding or sympathy for other human beings, has absolutely fuck all to do with whether you have a dick or pussy. To say "women literally refuse to even try to understand..." is just a ridiculous statement to make. That is surely a massive assumption to make based off his experience with the few women he has known in his life.
@OP Sure but I empathise with what the question asker is saying. Your attitude is one that he's talking about. Its not an attack on problems its the dismissal.
This is obviously an emotionally fueled question and you have kinda proved his point with being condecending and belittling him.
Gender/sex certianly changes how people look at you so I dont see how this sort of thing can't be looked at in terms of men and women, do you not think that sexism exists?
Because there is no univeral rule that x gender has more empathy for another. There just simply is not. This is not *thing*. This is not a *fact*. This is no different than women saying nice guys do not exist or men saying women are all gold diggers. These are subjective statements. This is not scientifically proven. This is not biologically proven. This is literally stupid human issues based off emotions, irrational thoughts and childish conclusions.
I do not agree that a entire gender has no empathy for the opposite. Sorry but this is not proven. This is not a fact. This is a opinion. And I disagree that it is not based off factual knowledge but someome's subjective experience which has never been a cold hard fact. Me thinking all men are assholes as a EXAMPLE does NOT mean all men are. It is a irrational thought based off probably a few bad experiences.
I hope you liked my explain it like I am 5 answer. I have no other way to possibly explain this.
Who cares about how the other gender feels? I give 0 thought into the female experience. Its not my place. I am a man, I am concerned about myself. Women want a man who doesn't complain and talk about problems. Its our job as men to be problem solvers.
If wimen are as apathetic as you assert, why give two squirts of piss to understand the feminine experience? We are equally capable of apathy.
Personally speaking my concern extends only to those I care about. The rest, courtesy and politeness aside, I have a general indifference towards. I have zero need to feel any aspect of my existence necessitates being validated by some individual who I do not know and who does not know me. A live and let live kind of harmony sort of thing.
First off a lot modern feminism is benevolent sexism pushing a victim narrative. So if the narrative is women are victims of men how can men also be victims.
Secondly alpha, beta, and omega male is bullshit and is not reflected anywhere in nature. Any time someone starts talking about any greek letter male or female i laugh at how far their head is up their ass to have this shit coming out of there mouth.
Third there are women's groups that focused on mens issues.
Men can be quite different, so do women. I can eagerly sit and listen to a man whose issue is problems with his family, work, aging, etc for hours literally and give him compassion but a guy whose main issue is why he can't sleep with every girl he meets... I just can't understand him sorry 😑😐😑😐😑😐😑
I don't know if this opinion is common on all women. But it is possible that so. É sort of women does not WANT to have understanding of men because they think that world has heard too much about men's point of view in the last 6000 years and now the female point of view must be dominant. This is a victim's reaction and no real equal rights point of view. Everybody can think as (s) he wants about it. :-/
Due to feminism many women grossly overestimate their own emotional intelligence. They believe that emotional intelligence is a distinctly female thing that makes them superior in understanding emotions and making social analysis. Thats why they refuse to listen to a man and ship things off as mansplaining because men are inferior in emotional understanding according to them.
There is no collective male or female experience. Your own experience is the only one you can truly understand. Gender doesn't change the fact that we're all prisoners of our minds, and the closest we can come to comprehending others' experiences is by comparing them to ours and filling in the gaps with our own imagination.
I noticed that, on average, most women tend to give less fucks about male suffering compared to female suffering. I don't really know why, maybe that just how it is. I'm not complaining about it though because I would not want to turn men's rights into a feminism 2.0 where it's basically annoying more people than actually doing good. Overall, I think it's a bit sad, but I don't really care. At least, I don't care enough to shame women for that.
Depends on the person, I've met a few women who actually seem to care about better understanding our psyche, seems rare though. From my experience though we aren't so different after all, who would have thought humans are similar to humans? xD Anyways, I think it's because we are perceived as tough, and so people think we can deal with things ourselves, truth is sometimes we need help too, and the world would be a lot better if everyone would take a moment to stop and help their fellow citizen.
Until you give up thinking in gross generalizations you will always be lonely and miserable. Also give up the toxic alpha beta garbage. I’ve given you good advice on what to do on the other thread. Now go and do it.
Don’t tarnish all women with the same brush, I seem to be the go to person when my males friends are having personal problems or just require some advice.
Could be just nihilism, most of the women on here seem to be more interested in their crotch than in anything else. I think some women might be interested but women when dealing with men their crotch takes over pretty quick.
Could you put the link here? Sounds interesting. I'm sorry you guys feel that way. It happens both ways, actually. Some dudes brush off women's problems, even if you and people you know don't.
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Anonymous
(25-29)
+1 y
half of the people come here to whine their lungs out...
Well to be fair, on the internet you do see a lot of dudes blaming women for their own problems that they're too chickenshit to face. It can be hard to filter out the legitimate issues from the bullshit.
Easy, they don't have to. Read... literally anything written by a modern feminist.
If you fail to require women to adhere to any sort of standards, or place any boundaries on them, they WILL walk all over you like a child would.
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Anonymous
(36-45)
+1 y
It's because Women have an inferiority complex. Woman are mentally very weak, therefore will always need Mens Validation. When they don't get it they freak out.
Well, I have a job, I have to plan for TEC, and next year I have an E2020 that I need to focus on completing. That’s not all easy. Especially when woman have their periods. You boys will never understand and don’t be coming at me saying “it’s not that bad”
It isn't so you work part time and go to school abd have periods let me know when your actually paying for a car, insurance, rent, bills on top of bills and more and get tons of lack of sleep & then we'll be talking about HARD at your age haha relax and enjoy being a kid, once you hit that adult age it's nothing but work unless you were born with a silver spoon
What's up with your having a girl's name and girl's picture, but with a guy's account?
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Anonymous
(30-35)
+1 y
Because men are getting worse and worse. Y’all think you are worth something when you are not. Everything of any merit on this earth, was the product of a woman, never of a male. Men are worthless.
Honestly read the responses. The women who respond should answer your question. Not each individually, but how they responded. Most attacking for you calling them out. Not all but most. If they weren't they wouldn't have responded in such a seemingly hostile way. Them responding the way they did only confirms what you've stated. The guys defending them are most likely blue pilled but thats ok. They need whatever they need.
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