Do I have a right to be angry when women try to friéndzone?

[Anonymous]

I’m a mature man and I can accept tactful rejection. I’ve had women respectfully tell me their not interested and I graciously bowed out. I have a saying “attraction isn’t a choice but respect is”.

But when a woman asks me “can we just be friends” after i went through all the effort of approaching her, setting up a date (usually paying for it, having to lead the conversation and show courage I have a gut reaction of like being slapped across the face. To me she just see’s me as a “nice guy” she can take advantage of. It’s a huge sign of disrespect.

I rarely raise my voice to women but when they ask that I’ll usually say “NO! Fuck no!” I calm down after saying that but I wanted to get the point across that about how much I hate that. It stems from having women exploit me in the past for that. I hate it with a passion. I’ve met grown ass women in their 30s who still try to pull this shit.

Now if a woman says something along the lines of “hey i appreciate your efforts but tbh I’m not interested” I can totally accept that. I might be disappointed but I’m not angry.

But what do I have a right to be angry when women try to friéndzone (I never accept that shit)

Updates

+1 y

I didn’t word the above very well.

When I say “get angry” that doesn’t mean I go psycho or lose it. But I do express my feelings that it’s insulting for a woman to confidently assume I’m “okay” with that scenario despite everything I did earlier shows that I had every intention to date. She has absolutely nothing to offer me as “just friends”

I definitely don’t hate anyone who turns me down. That’s just life. I’ve had to turn other people down before but I did it respectfully.

Updates

+1 y

And again no one is entitled to sex/intimacy. I learned that a very long time ago. But asking someone “just to be friends” (or worse just assuming they are okay with that) is really insulting. I rather hear “I’m got to be out honest with you out of respect. I think you are a decent guy but I’m just not interested”. Just leave it at that. I can respect that.

[AmandaYVR]

Sounds like your anger is somewhat warranted... but also somewhat over the top/overly sensitive.

You can be legit angry if:

• A woman accepted your offer of a date, you took her out to a nice place of sizeable cost, took the energy to make plans, and had good intentions and were hopeful.

You shouldn't be mad if:

• She went out on a date with you, also in good faith, and then upon spending some time getting to know one another - based on personality and compatibility - came to the conclusion, on the spot, that you two were not a good fit.

Are you made about the term 'friendzone', because it's fake? Or are you mad about your time investment? Either way, honestly, I think you may expect too much. Dating is messy, unlike engineering systems, etc. or tech, which is rigid and has rules. People need to explore others, often in ways that are less than efficient.

A lot of this male frustration could be resolved IF women/girls made more advances, and took much more - or at least SOME - of the responsibility, in dating; particularly in the early stages. But most are still insisting on all these now-archaic 'rules', customs, traditions, and even more egregious is to claim that biology of the sexes dictates its necessity. Bullshit.

I wholeheartedly agree with your,“attraction isn’t a choice but respect is”.
However... brace yourself now... what people deem 'disrespectful' has a very wide, and often inaccurate, latitude.

[AmandaYVR]

Oops, forgot to finish that sentence...

You can be legit angry if:
A woman accepted your offer of a date, you took her out to a nice place of sizeable cost, took the energy to make plans, and had good intentions and were hopeful...
but she never had any intention beyond getting a free meal, or staving off a bit of boredom, or getting her ego stroked.
But most women don't do that. They actually do want a connection, to meet a nice guy, and to have a good time.
They're just much more particular about who they deem a compatible partner.

[Asker]

Very insightful response above.

[Asker]

I updated this question. When I said “get angry” many people unfortunately looked at this the wrong way.

Also it’s one thing if young women in their early 20s do this crap. It’s not right but they are still inexperienced. But I’ve met women in their 30s who should f’ing know better do this. I wouldn’t snap at a 21 yr old but a 31 yr old is a different story.

[Asker]

The only thing I disagree with you above is the term “friéndzone”. Here is my definition of it:

“Two people meet and one person feels attracted to the other but unfortunately the other doesn’t feel the same way. The disinterested party confidently assumes that a platonic “friendship” (not the same as being just friendly/respectful) can continue with the interested party.”

That’s my definition above and it’s very real situation in dating. The romantically disinterested party did not put the mental effort into how the romantically interested party feels. More often than not the interested person took risks (approaching and asking for a date) and invested time/effort/money trying to make it happen. To confidently assume a true platonic friendship (like still talking and hanging out) is very disrespectful to the interested person. It’s not like the interested person can turn the attraction they feel off like a light switch.

Instead start off by being tactfully honest. Say “I need to be honest with you because I respect you”. If the rejected person knows the other person respects them it goes a long ways. It some of the sting out.

[Asker]

*takes some of the sting out.

[AmandaYVR]

I didn't interpret your anger as physical or violent or totally unreasonable.
Men get angry. Women get angry too, but I do think men tend to express their anger in ways that is more... off-putting [?] to females, so men tend to feel muzzled more than they want to/feel is healthy. And I understand that.
The issue is when females dismiss men's anger as being entirely unwarranted. That's not going to work. Not for the individuals, and not for society in general.

I read through all the other commenters now. People have some good/valid points.
It's not a totally simple or straightforward topic with just one angle.

Here's my impromptu thoughts now:
1. Many females use the word 'friend' but they're really just trying to be nice and soften the 'I don't want to be your girl' concept. In this case, it's just a matter of semantics. It's a cultural trope that people understand.
2. Some females actually would like to be friends. Or, to stay 'friendly.' They're making their choice, but it doesn't mean the guy can't also make his choice (which could be different.)
3. I don't think girls are going to, by majority, come to the conclusion that you have, which is that male-female platonic friendship is disrespectful or bad or an insult. It is a demotion, sort of, though, I would agree. (Unless circumstances prevent a deeper relationship. That circumstances - geography, religion, availability, other commitments such as work or kids or school, health issues, etc. - do play a key part.)

[AmandaYVR]

I do think females need to really consider this 'friendzoning' topic/concept. They don't seem to understand what it is doing to men (some men) psychologically. The females risk so little, by comparison. Yet they don't want to acknowledge that.

But you men will not be able to entirely eradicate it, either. Because you're dealing with [at least two, that I can think of off the top of my head] issues here:
1. A direct vs. indirect communication style preference.
2. That females are still massively resisting being the initiators, when it comes to dating.
But when I read through the other commenters, it gives a more broad, and mellow, was of viewing this all. You'll need to try and personally diffuse your sense that it's disrespectful. It's going to eat you up inside, when there are things to be legitimately annoyed about - such as when true malice was intended - and this simply isn't one of them. "Can we just be friends" is a female soft let down. You need to try and accept that.

As far as wasting your time, the wasted money, meals, hopes and dreams... yes, it's true, you have a point there. But I think the disappointment of it all is really the issue; not the way they are saying 'no.'

[Asker]

@amandayvr thank you. That was very well written and thoughtful.

When I was much younger and was trying dating I either A) got exploited and treated like absolute shit by women for being too nice B) attracted a very controlling woman who quickly turned me off because she reminded me of my mother. C) threw caution to the wind and hooked up fast to “show where I stand”

Anyway the number of A incidents were more often than you think. I was always told “oh just forget that bitch” or “you will find someone better” or “don’t get worked up over it”. But I was never told it was okay to speak my mind if I was pissed off or upset. Reason being as you put above “men who get angry are off putting”. As if we aren’t allowed to raise are voice because we are supposedly dangerous and uncontrollably violent. There is of course anecdotal cases of this. But in reality the vast majority of men would never hit a woman (even when it’s arguably justified i. e. hitting her back). So yes I usually stayed quiet about my truth feelings whether it would anger, sadness or hurt. That’s a built in cushion western women enjoy in society.

As for C scenarios. Deep down I really don’t like hooking up to fast. But in the last 3 long term relationships I’ve been i got sexual early (within 3 dates) with all 3 women. I don’t starting that way at all but again it was my way of making a point.

[Asker]

Anyway back to the friendzone I had made some adjustments in my own life (stay on my guard) and I did in my late 20s. But when I got into my 30s especially my later 30s I thought women over 30 would grow the fuck up when it comes to understanding men. A women over the age of 30 should know god damn well that if a man approached her and put effort into dating then the last thing he wants to hear is “can we just be friends”. A grown women should be used to rejected men (and vice versa) and understand that tactfully communicating is the respectful thing to do.

Despite that I’ve met 3 grown women (one a year older than me) who I dated, got sexual with and later tried to revert course to “friends only”. That’s nuts. It’s made me very hesitant to put the investment into dating. I just sick of sticking my neck out.

[sumayathemagi]

From a biological point of view, in generally girls don't have sex drive as like men. Girls get horny but women's horniness is totally different than men horniness. When men feel instinctive urge, desire, craving for sex, sexual intimacy, oral sex, another women body it’s call men horniness. But women don't feel it. Women's horniness means **desire to orgasm**. The urge to have sex with men, desire, craving for sex, sexual intimacy, craving for men body is totally absent in their horniness. You can compare it to urge to pee. It's just a physical itch. But there is no mental, psychological urge, desire, craving for sex, sexual intimacy, men body. That's why you often see women are totally indifferent to sex, sexual intimacy because women can get horny but women don’t feel desire to have sex, craving for sex.


That's the difference between men horniness and women's horniness. Women often say they get horny often. But their horniness means nothing, it’s just acknowledging something itching. That’s it.
If you drink less water in the hot day you will get the same itch in your lower belly, that's why women can't recognise it.




Even you often see guys always check out women, stare at women, watch porn, see nude photos of women but women are totally disinterested in this chapter/section. It’s because women only lust after their husband, boyfriend or familiar person. You know this is a long term process.


Until women get their boyfriend, husband or a familiar person their brain don't even know there is such a thing like lust. I am saying, seeing random men whom they never met before does nothing for women, it’s like seeing shoes, bus, dolls etc. Totally indifferent glance. So, don't waste time to know the fiction that women lust after men body.
It’s just a fiction.

[Asker]

It’s really not about losing a sexual opportunity but rather the disrespect I get angry at. I do NOT expect any sexual rewards for treating her well on 1-2 dates. But asking me to “just be friends” after that is very insulting.

[AmandaYVR]

"The urge to have sex with men, desire, craving for sex, sexual intimacy, craving for men body is totally absent in their horniness. You can compare it to urge to pee. It's just a physical itch. But there is no mental, psychological urge, desire, craving for sex, sexual intimacy, men body. That's why you often see women are totally indifferent to sex, sexual intimacy because women can get horny but women don’t feel desire to have sex, craving for sex."

Nope. Wrong.

[sumayathemagi]

@AmandaYVR what do you want to say by saying wrong?

[AmandaYVR]

I have nothing more to add. It's just wrong.

[sumayathemagi]

If it is wrong the what's the truth?

Even you often see guys always check out women, stare at women, watch porn, see nude photos of women but women are totally disinterested in this chapter/section. It’s because women only lust after their husband, boyfriend or familiar person. You know this is a long term process.

Until women get their boyfriend, husband or a familiar person their brain don't even know there is such a thing like lust. I am saying, seeing random men whom they never met before does nothing for women, it’s like seeing shoes, bus, dolls etc. Totally indifferent glance. So, don't waste time to know the fiction that women lust after men body.

It’s wrong or right?

[AmandaYVR]

Wrong.

[sumayathemagi]

Then what's the truth. Majority of women say this and act like they asexual dead fish.

[AmandaYVR]

I don't have time for this. It's too much work.

Read the pink comments here. Listen to them, instead of coming to your own conclusions based on what you THINK is going on in side their heads.
They're complicated, I get it. But you have a ton to learn.

[sumayathemagi]

When you know nothing, you can't tell anything then why did you fucking said wrong? To show your intelligence?

[AmandaYVR]

So that other guys don't read this and believe it's true. It's misleading.

[sumayathemagi]

It’s fact and true because you can't say anything Against it without saying wrong. It such an empty vessel.

[AmandaYVR]

Look, buddy, I'm in the middle of writing erotica right now and I can assure you, women crave men. We lust after you.
What hurts men is that it isn't the woman you want. And because you're so often put in the position of being the initiators. You feel rejected, and turn to believe that women don't desire. Because that's easier on your psyche, and your soul, than accepting the fact that desire is specific. It's person-specific. And for many women/girls, it has to be a great man, someone who speaks to you, in the right way, both literally and figuratively. It's natural selection; and guys hate to hear that, be reminded of that.

And women do love sex. Just typically not as often as men do. Circumstances have to be RIGHT. And there are a lot of things that have to line up.
Sorry if it crushes you, but THAT is the truth.
If you look at my account, read my shit, you will know I know what I'm talking about, and I speak the truth, and it is often in men's favour. So don't even go there, implying I don't like men, or some shit.

So get off my fucking back now.

[Subarugirl]

Why is someone saying that would rather be friends insulting?

[sumayathemagi]

Women are sexually attracted to men in what way? What's the inner monologue of female sexual attraction/lust?

Women are sexually passive/inactive. So I have no idea how women's lust work.

When men lust after women. It's instinctive desire, sense of touching, licking, kissing, feeling her body. Men feel and see it from their eyes, their sense and they are the subject.
It's like saying, you are salivated by ice cream. So inner monologue is desire to touch, kiss, lick ice cream.

What about women.

[Babi1]

@AmandaYVR he has a point, i don't think he is wrong, it maybe wrong for you, but not for the majority of women, female heterosexuality seems like total bullshit, most women are by definition Demisexual and Bisexual, women are the definition of Demisexuality and Bisexuality, men 24/7 check out women, watch women in porn, get turned by naked women, but most women seem to be totally indifferent to men physically, and when I say men, I mean the average men, most women don't experience attraction until they form a strong emotional bond with "men" and their attraction is usually not sexual but romantic, most women don't feel sexual attraction to strangers only some do, and when they do they only feel attraction to men who don't look like the vast majority of men, i mean they are either 10/10 models or they have some characteristics that make them different from the average man, also nearly half women are sexually turned on by women and lesbian porn and the female body and want to have sex with women, even so-called "straight" women want that, how is that possible for straight women to want that? female heterosexuality is Bullshit to me, i find it hard to believe when a woman claim to be straight, i always assume she is bisexual in denial or demisexual.

[AmandaYVR]

Good. Both Babi1 and sumayathemagi are gone, accounts closed. They were both clueless.

[224466881010]

You have the right to feel, think and do whatever you want, but nobody owes you a goddamn thing.

I think that you're overreacting. Here's why:

1) Generally getting insulted or butturt never works out for you, and people almost always lose respect for you after so try not to do it. The woman might have even found it attractive and had more respect for you if you calmly responded with something like "No thanks. I appreciate it but I'm here to date/ for romance". Even if being clear and firm in your intentions wasn't enough for her in particular, maybe she has a friend that could use a calm, confident man who knows what he wants.

2) Being confident, high value, clear in your intentions and approaching a woman is just what you do to start an interaction and stand a chance. Going on a date together is just another mutually agreed upon time you'll spend together to advance things. you understand clearly enough that if a woman decides she's not interested, that's fine.

3) Why is asking to be friends any different than deciding she isn't interested at all? For you it's a pet peeve and even disrespectful. It isn't that way for everyone. She doesn't know how you see things. It's like being from an alien culture. I would argue that people disagree on that subject enough for you to treat them calmly and open mindedly like they're from a different planet on that particular issue. I would also argue that for the women who also see it as disrespectful, it could also be a shit test to see if you'll just submit to some young dumb "be your pen pal" shit. Are you a man who knows what he wants? Maybe, but that isn't attractive if you throw a tantrum about it, cuz then you're just a kid who knows what he wants instead. Either way, its a much better move to stay calm.

[Asker]

You have a good point with number 3.

There is a lot of missing context in this and it would take a book to write (which no one here has the patience to read). 2 years ago I literally had a woman (year older than me) show up on my doorstep from a different state and later tried to weasel her way out of staying at my place (by asking my own sister in law to stay at hers).

I have never “thrown a tantrum” before. But when a woman (especially grown ass women past 30) is confident that I’m going with that somehow okay with that bullshit setup I get pissed. I used to just cut them off and say nothing. But I told a few of them off and I got to admit it felt good to ventilate. Of course that isn’t going to change their mind but at least they know where I stand. When I say “tell them off” i mean I say it knowing that things are done but I didn’t appreciate them insulting me w/ a bullshit expectation

[224466881010]

So a woman came to live with you from out of state and then she wanted to leave and asked your sister in law to stay at her place? Is that what happened?

[Asker]

In a nutshell. There is missing LOTS of context though. Do you have the patience to read it all?

Also I know not all women are the same. I guess I have this expectation for women older than 30 to understand men better. I know I’m more careful about how I communicate with women now vs how I acted at 22. But some people actually get worse.

[224466881010]

I did read it all. You went to the effort of romantically seeing her and making it clear you want a romantic relationship.

She clearly decided she likes you as a person but doesn't want anything romantic and asked if you'd settle for being friends (unless she's testing you, in which case the next point is important).

For you to not want that is fine and so is saying "no". But to get all insulted and shit is really unnecessary and it makes you look like a bitch.

[Asker]

No I didn’t say anything at the time because as you said “that makes you look like a bitch”. Do you think that magically made her gain more respect for me? No she just saw it as validation that I was okay with being an orbiter. That was never agreed upon.

Anyway again this is missing lots of context. It’s also in the past. I can DM it to you or just be whatever. It really comes down to me not wanting to risk this bullshit again.

[Piper_Jackson]

I think it depends on the relationship was like with that person. From a women’s perspective I can see why we ask that. I mean you guys become important to us, and we don’t want to lose that bond just because we don’t share the same feelings. It’s sad and makes us feel like you don’t want to be with us if it isn’t for a relationship. However! I can also see why guys wouldn’t want that. It’s like having to be stuck with someone forever who will never see you the same way you see them. It’s almost like saying I don’t like but stay with me anyway. Which is selfish… so I can see both sides of the coin. But it really depends, especially given the situation and people involved.

[Asker]

It’s more of a respect issue. Inexperienced guys at your age might feel some sort of entitlement because they took the risk of approaching you, investing money/time with you, getting their hopes up, etc. But if she’s not interested she’s not interested. That sucks but a mature man can accept that (I can and have accepted that).

[Asker]

But once there is no possibility of a romantic relationship then it’s best to respectfully part ways. You can still be friendly if you run into each other but actually being “friends” (like actually talking and hanging out) is foolish and very destructive to the man’s self esteem.

[Asker]

Also it’s one thing if women around your age believe this “friendship” is okay. But I’ve met grown women 30 and older who should know better. That’s when I get upset.

[Woke51]

The reason you're angry is that you have an expectation of your high efforts to be rewarded or at least appreciated. When they are not, you perceive that as an unfair treatment.

Let go of expectations and ease up on the effort. You're trying too hard and expecting people to conform. They'd never asked for you to try in the first place.

[Subarugirl]

You have a right to feel any emotion, you don't have a right to take that out on a person who doesn't deserve it. Saying that you aren't romantically interested but would like to be friends isn't an insult.

[Asker]

I could of given better context in the original question. People are getting all these erroneous images of a “angry and potentially violent man” in their head when I said “I get angry”. I’m definitely not like that at all. But it’s insulting to have someone confidently assume you will be okay with “just friends” despite everything you did early points to the opposite. I don’t think it’s wrong to call that out.

[Subarugirl]

What I am baffled at is why you would want to be with someone you wouldn’t want to be friends with…

[Asker]

When I was much younger that’s actually what I truly wanted. To become legitimate friends with a nice girl and let that become something more. I tried that and it NEVER worked. Never. She ended up using me as a resource, free counselor and a shoulder to cry on when she was upset or needed advice about other guys.

I’ve been in 3 long term relationships in my life. In all three we had sex within 3 dates. Deep down I really didn’t want to do it that early but I felt like It was necessary to show her where I stand.

I guess some people have managed to do platonic courtship to let things grow it something more substantial. That’s great but on my end it’s a huge gamble. I invested all that time, energy, hope, money, etc just watch her fall for someone else. I’ve had that happen to me in the past and i refuse to have it happen again.

[m33lad]

I’m not goanna read all that. You’re using male psychology to understand them.


Will never work.
I can help you, as this is mostly what I do for young men.
Because of C0ViD I don’t want anything.
Contact me on:
Www. Milademjay. com

[FilmGuy93]

There's no need to be angry about it, man. She's friendzoning you, but depending on how you react, she might be testing you, or she's setting you up for one of her girlfriends.

[MCheetah]

Of course you do. No one likes being rejected or told they're garbage. As long as you aren't rude to the person who did it.

[noohair]

It is a nice way of trying to not bust your ego like an egg. It is part of the process of finding someone. If the chemistry is not on both sides it is not chemistry.

[Powerpuffgirl223]

You can be angry you just can’t act out on those emotions by harming someone’s who’s rejected you! This is how it works unfortunately some people will friendzone you , you just have to deal with it

[Asker]

I’ve never “harmed” anyone. I’m talking about speaking my mind when I feel disrespected.

Asking a grown man to be “just friends” after he put in some obvious effort into a few dates is very insulting. It’s not really about sex/relationships. Rather you don’t see him as masculine so you feel like he’s somehow going to be okay with the friéndzone. You are not nor ever will be a true “friend” to him anyway. Do you think he wants to stick around just to watch you get with someone else (and likely hear you complain or ask for advice about other guys). Hell no. He also just wasted a lot of time, money, hope and energy for a lost cause. Why would he stick around to be reminded of it?

Now flat out being respectfully honest with a guy that your not interested is a different story. Yeah it stings and he will be disappointed. But at least he knows where he stands. He might not thank you but he will be thankful. If does say something shitty then you can take that as affirmation you made the right choice.

Just don’t ask him to be “friends”. Don’t. It’s salt in the wound.

Men much less leeway to do this in western society. But in reality the vast majority are NOT a “threat”. But I think women deep down know that but still take advantage of this built in cushion so they can weasel their way out of confrontation and hearing the ugly truth.

[KrakenAttackin]

What's worse is she probably had no interest in the first place, she was just using you for a "foodie call".

[Anonymous]

No need to get angry. Women can choose who they want to fuck or stay friends so do you. You shouldn't put yourself into the friendzone of a chick you want to fuck. If she rejects you, accept that and leave politely.

[Anonymous]

I've mastered the art of making high quality ceramic cheese graters... I'm sure you can think of uses for one

[Asker]

Lol 🤣🤣🤣

[Anonymous]

if she rejects you then cut her off. No friends either

[Powerpuffgirl223]

Lmao

[Opinion Owner]

@Powerpuffgirl223 why is that funny? If I am not looking for a friend then why waste my time. Women in her position want men to fawn over them. I tell guys not to play her game. Women are superficial and we can't change that but we don't have to play their game either

[Jmmmfi4]

Yes you absolutely have the right

[In_Trance]

sure, be angry


then what?

[Asker]

People misinterpreted exactly what I mean by “being angry”. It’s not immature to call someone out if they disrespect you.

Trying to date a woman (especially if she’s 30 and over) just to have her turn around and confidently assume you are okay with “just friends” is insulting. Nothing wrong with telling her that.