Can the cops force a cavity search on you?

[Anonymous]

I read where the DEA performed a cavity search on a woman, even took her to the hospital and had them use a speculum on her, both holes, to search her for drugs she didn't have... All I could think was there's no way I'd keep my feet in the stirrups for that, seems it'd be pretty impossible if I didn't let them do it, I'd be fighting like hell at that notion.

Updates

+1 y

I mean physically, not legally... I don't care how many judges sign a piece of paper saying they can I'm not willingly letting them put a speculum up my butt, and I'm sure most women feel the same way

[FilmGuy93]

They need probable cause. Now, that's not the hardest thing in the world for them to get, but (in theory) the judge needs to be able to point out evidence that shows a clear line of logic that says "Suspect did/was observed in X circumstance, which would lead a reasonable officer to conclude that they might be commiting Y crime."

In the case of the DEA doing the cavity search. Think in terms of the woman behaving in a strange way, or being accompanied by suspicious people such that, in the circumstances, would make a DEA agent logically assume that she might have drugs inside her body.

[Asker]

The question was more about if they could physically force a woman rather than legally

[FilmGuy93]

Oh... yeah, I mean in theory they could physically force her to. That would be extremely unpleasant, and I can't think of a worse way to handle the situation, but I guess they could force her, if they really wanted to.

[Asker]

It just seems it would be rather difficult

[FilmGuy93]

It would be difficult, for sure.

[Hawner]

They must have either a warrant or probable cause. On the latter, if they don't find anything, they will be in big trouble, since you can make a complain wich you would automatically win.
If they don't even have a probable cause nor accuse you of anything, you have the right of no complaining to their demands.

[Asker]

I was referring to the physical "can they" not the legal

[Hawner]

Oh. Then it depends on the officer's own strength, it s/he tries to do it alone or with a colleague's help, if it's fine at the hospital, if restrains are used... There are many variables, not counting if you cooperate, of course.

[Asker]

It'd have to be at the hospital, per the law, has to be done by a doctor, but the stirrups at the doctor don't have restraints, they're just foot rests...

[Hawner]

The stirrups may not have them, but the officer's may use some of theirs if you resist.

[Asker]

Would be awful hard to use theirs to keep your feet in the stirrups and knees apart and waist from moving the target

[Hawner]

The feet can be restrained to the stirrups separately, which takes care of the knees. The waist can be restrained by hand.
Also, if someone happens to be so extremely uncooperative that even with all that is is not possible to safely inspect, the doctor can use a sedative.

[Asker]

Stirrups don't have restraints and they dont keep your knees apart

[Hawner]

I am dating they can use their own restraints for that. You know, those plastic bracelets they use now instead of the cuffs? You can use one of those to bind each leg to reach stirrup.

[Asker]

That wouldn't keep the knees apart though

[Hawner]

Yes, it would. I don't know what kind of stirrups you have seen, but on those for childbirth and gynecologic inflections there is a section for the get and another for the knee to rest. If the get are bound, the knees can't move much.

[Asker]

That's awful

[Asker]

Terrifying and inhumane

[Hawner]

If a police officer has probable cause that you are hiding something illegal (drugs, weapons, whatever), I would think that you are the one horrible and inhumane, they are just doing their job to being justice and order. But yeah, you have the right to complain.

[Asker]

Bring one of those things near my butt and I'll do more than complain lol

[Hawner]

Then make sure to not put any illegal things there, giving the police a reason to do it.

[Asker]

Didn't help the woman in El Paso

[Hawner]

Weren't you asking about if it could be physically done, legality aside? Don't try to bring another issue, especially when I already talked about it on my first reply.

[Adaeva]

They can do whatever they want to and most American will approve.

[TroyDT2]

Not without a warrant, or a good faith belief that a warrant has been issued. For a cavity search, a judge is not going to accept an incorrect "good faith belief" so without a warrant you are looking at a massive, enough to retire right now, settlement or judgment. With a warrant, yes, they can legally physically compel.

[Asker]

I just have a hard time seeing how they could physically compel seeing as how a woman has to be in a certain position for it to all happen

[TroyDT2]

If there is a warrant, and someone resists, then they can and do physically compel, but there is a twist. A warrant can compel the suspect, but medical practitioners can refuse to perform one without the the suspect's consent and the authorities cannot compel the medical practitioner to perform one.

[Asker]

That's rather interesting considering how lawsuit adverse hospitals and doctors are especially if one is claiming harm...

[NamerOfStars]

Physically? Yes. It doesn't matter how strong you are; enough of them can overpower you. Legally? Not without a warrant or some SERIOUS probable cause, but the details vary based on jurisdiction.

[Asker]

I'd just not keep my feet up there so they can't put it in... Kinda hard to do that when you're kicking at the doctor

[NamerOfStars]

Then they'd grab your legs and push them into position. The price of kicking at someone is that they know where your leg will be.

[Asker]

I guess, just seems like it'd be pretty hard to keep a person still enough to do that... I'd be giving them a moving target from hell.

[NamerOfStars]

They're used to wrestling folks hopped up on PCP.

[Asker]

Yeah, but this is a little different than that... most of them probably also have problems finding the hole without things moving around.

[exitseven]

If they can do it at the airport they can do it anywhere.

Grab you ankles.

[Asker]

Not with a speculum they don't... I don't think

[BeMuse]

You need a search warrant first.

Schmerber v. California, 384 U. S. 757 (1966)

[Asker]

True, or at least they are supposed to... But the question is more of "can they physically force you" rather than "can they legally force you"... You can show me all the papers you want I'm not going to willingly let them put one of those things in my butt

[BeMuse]

Well legally if they have probable cause and they are searching for evidence pertaining to a crime with a reasonable expectation that they will find it from the search and a judge orders the search, then they can go ahead with searches that would be in the realm of a typical safe medical procedure where no permanent damage is done. They will have someone who is medically qualified carry it out. Like you said, they took her to the hospital. That said, without a warrant they can’t do that. The police have to file a complaint with the court containing a sworn a statement detailing the crime and belief in the defendants involvement in said crime, that there is evidence showing probable cause, and present it to the court. The judge must analyze it and decide if it is reasonable and warranted… As to the physical aspect of it. If they lube up a speculum and shove it in your butt when you are hand cuffed to a table, it’s going to slide in...

[Asker]

I'd just not keep my legs apart of my feet in the stirrups...

[BeMuse]

It's probably better to just not hide things up your butt hole in the first place... Then there is no probable cause to warrant the search of your poop shoot.

[BeMuse]

It seems like it would be easier to just throw a stash of drugs or whatever in a storm drain then to stuff your ass with it.

[Asker]

The woman I was referring to from El Paso didn't... A dog just signaled she had something when she didn't

[BeMuse]

Well then she should sue for like $20 million. Random street searches when there is no indication of a crime in action shouldn't warrant a cavity search. The government can't carry out unreasonable searches and seizures. It's a violation of her forth amendment rights.

[Asker]

Unfortunately Egbert v Boule determined that a citizen doesn't have the right to sue feds over civil rights violations... Best a woman could do in that case is to file a complaint to the agency.

[TroyDT2]

Who told you that? Egbert dealt with immigration and was specifically based upon National Security concerns. Bivens is the ruling precedent in a case like this, and in fact was decided in favor of the plaintiff against the Federal Bureau of Narcotics, predecessor of the DEA.

[Asker]

@TroyDT2 there's been all manner of articles being written on the Egbert case, because regardless of "national security" concerns there were still violations of his constitutional rights, and if the constitution, and it's amendments, are not the superceding law of the land, then it is meaningless.

Lots of horrifying things were justified by "national security" around the world, including the Holocaust... One must imagine how those who expand power will take advantage of it for their own benefit, because someone always will.

[jshm2]

Not to that level. There is no need as they can put you through a scanner instead.

[Asker]

They did that to her... And x-ray... And a manual search...

[Fuentes]

Well it would be woman performing it on you, not men.

[Asker]

So? That doesn't change how painful it would be

[Guy13]

Wild…how long ago was this?

[Asker]

2010s I believe, like 2014 or something... Happened in El Paso... The trip of it is they even had the hospital bill her for it later!

[Guy13]

Damn…beyond my ability to imagine.

[Asker]

Unfortunately I'm familiar enough with the tools and position, but never had it go in there... I can imagine though... Two words come to mind: unpleasant and painful

[KrakenAttackin]

If they obtain a warrant, you bet they can.

[Asker]

The question was more about whether they could physically force something like that on a woman, not if it were legal

[KrakenAttackin]

Physically, obviously yes. Physically they could just gut you and see what comes out.

[Asker]

They aren't going to just gut a person, obviously, but the notion of the insertion of a speculum into the butt seems like it'd be enough to make any girl uncooperative to say the least

[msc545]

And getting a warrant from their good friend the Judge is not exactly difficult.

[KrakenAttackin]

@msc545 True enough.

[WhiteBoyChill]

Lol. Its as if the asker thinks she can overpower five-six men holding her down

[Anonymous]

They can if they have a warrant or probable cause.

[Asker]

The question is more about if they can physically force a girl to let it happen, rather than legally... Personally I don't care how many papers are signed by how many judges, I'm not letting a speculum go near my butt!

[Opinion Owner]

Yes they can physically force you. If they have an order. And if you refuse it's contempt of court. It's sad and sickening. But it happens more often to men than women believe it or not.

[Asker]

Yeah but I doubt they put them in stirrups and open them up with one of those things like they do us...

[Opinion Owner]

Actually they do. Get off of your "I'm a female so it's automatically worse" band wagon.

[Asker]

Omg you're serious

[Opinion Owner]

They also use surgical means to get at what they want. Prison and jail are not fun for either gender.

[Asker]

Surgical means?

[Opinion Owner]

Like if they find something but it won't come out, they can cut the person open to get it.

[Asker]

Oh, well, I think if there's something stuck in there it'd be justifiable for the person's sake regardless of the search situation.

[Opinion Owner]

No disagreement

[WhiteBoyChill]

If they use their dick then its fair game

[ZenJen444]

Y do you care?

[Asker]

Boredom from vacation from work, listening to a friend talking too much and things bouncing around my head I guess... ... morbid curiosity

[ZenJen444]

I highly doubt it. Any normal individual with a life and friends wouldn't post stupidity like this

[Asker]

I'm on here... I think that automatically excludes me from the ranks of "normal"... my life is my work and because I'm a workaholic my boss required I leave my laptop and briefcase at work Wednesday morning... I'm bored out of my skull

[ZenJen444]

Yeah seek therapy kid

[Asker]

I don't need therapy, I have a job that makes an actual difference in the world... I just need to go back to work.