Is conditional submission of female to male (i. e. the biblical model, look it up) really so terrible?

[Sixgunsound]

If the man can prove he's capable of leading and providing and worth her time, she submits to his leadership. Is that really so terrible? It's not like he just gets to win or do whatever he wants because he was born male.

it is highly conditional. I'm not sure why we is a society ever broke away from this. Both genders Interests are protected.

[OpenClose]

It's weird people see this as "the natural order". Generally referencing the bible.

But much of the Bible was written in the context of sorting out the mess that was early civilization. How resources are distributed, who is responsible for whom, managing paternity certainty, etc.

So it placed men as being responsible for women, women responsible for children, and based a lot of things on "keeping her under control".

If that's the agreement between two adults, sure why not. But to say it's a natural order we must return to in order to regain happiness is a stretch. It is basically saying "You feel less decision anxiety when your freedom of choice is taken away." This may be true, but it isn't ideal.

[Ill_made_Knight]

This particular social order at the time of the bible and in that region of the world is purely because of heirs, value and property.
A wife put to death because she is raped, or for adultery because it puts her husbands posessions at risk. Some male child he did not sire could end up with his stuff when he dies. Can't have that right?
A daughters worth is sullied and she is "ruined" by sex, no matter the manner of it's occurrance. Now daddy can't get a good price for her hand in marriage so she is worthless.
Archaic and brutal stuff... women as pure property. My opinion? Terrible...

[Agape93]

If that's what she wants, it's fine. It was her choice based on preference. But to expect it, is not ok. One should never be made to submit just because someone else met their own criteria.

One cannot consider themselves free agents of their own lives, or claim that they have their interests protected, when they are made to submit to another or is culturally pressured to do so.

How would you feel if you were made to submit to me, because I met my religions standards? You would likely be miserable. I know I would be.

[Sixgunsound]

Unlike some places in the world, in the West marriage is not compulsory. If the partner in question does not meet the standards you are willing to voluntarily as an agent of your own free will submit to then don't voluntarily get married.

[Agape93]

Why must one surrender their agency and submit at all?

[Sixgunsound]

I don't see where you get surrendering your agency if entering marriage with someone who met your conditions for leadership was your choice?

[Sixgunsound]

Don't voluntarily choose to marry a lazy irresponsible untrustworthy abusive douchebag named Chad Thundercock and you should be OK with one of the conditions being accepting your counsel into the decision making process.

[Agape93]

If you submit to another, you by nature of that are surrendering at least some of your agency to that person. So again, why should we submit at all to anyone? Why not be equal partners? No submission and an equal say.

[Sixgunsound]

Because at some point decisions need to be made, and rarely but it does happen they need to be made quickly. I'm not sure we are having the same conversation because we keep talking about different things.

[Agape93]

Im discussing the original point, women being made to submit to a man if he meets biblical male criteria

[LazerBean]

Oh, it's not terrible at all. But as you said, it is highly conditional. And most people of both genders these days are going to want to go through promiscuous phase, which generally makes the men not worthy of being leaders and the women not want to be led.

[Sixgunsound]

Which is why a firm foundation in traditional western cultural values and morality is so important when raising children.

[Summeroflove]

It’s not bad no. But remember what the Bible says and the traditions of man are different. As well as different time periods as well as cultures all have their own ways of doing stuff.

[NathanDavis]

when a man is truly capable of anything... he will not struggle to find the one thing he wants

so... for all those who want a traditional woman, and do not have it yet... this only means they are not worthy nor capable of keeping one, or even finding her

[Justneedtokno]

I think the issue is some men take it too far where it’s almost as if he’s trying to control a woman.

The thing is for a woman to submit it’ll happen naturally it’s not a big discussion it’s not a big to do or anything if she deems him worthy then a woman will naturally.

[Sixgunsound]

That's what I figured. If he meets the conditions and is a good investment on her part it would happen naturally. In this way the interests of both parties are protected.

[Justneedtokno]

You’re making it sound like it’s a business transaction. What is your real question here

[Sixgunsound]

I asked the real question, what do you mean?

[Sixgunsound]

Do you disagree that the world runs on motivated self interest and that humans generally try to get the best deal for themselves whenever possible, even in relationships?

[Justneedtokno]

I agree we all want the best for ourselves. But not a lot of people understand that they have to be the best selves in order to receive the best. And that’s not always how the world works.

[Sixgunsound]

From an outside perspective that seems to be the major issue in the dating game today. Few people are willing to exert effort to be their best selves and thus be worthy of conditional trust and respect and leadership authority.

[Justneedtokno]

Well, as the world grows in mental awareness, a lot of people just don’t know themselves and of course they’re always changing and adapting and evolving to whatever is coming next. So there not trusting or willing because of themselves.

[TrueConfection]

It works (mostly) for my husband and I. I realize he's not perfect and not energy decision he makes will be the right one 100% of the time, but we respect eachother and we have a nice working rhythm (kind of like how one grease turns the other gear).

[TrueConfection]

grease = gear
I saw autocorrect change that when I hit send. Errrrrr!

[jshm2]

The problem in your spiel is the word "submits".

Change it to "collaborates" and you'll be closer to what scripture is actually about.

Nowhere does it demand blind devotion, and a lot of the various bibles are not divine in the least.

[TheSpaceGnome]

Leadership in general tends to not work well in relationships.

However, in the context of providing, ie being the only income earner, the earner gets to decide how their money is spent, and that has nothing to do with the relationship in my opinion.

[Msputiton]

Yes it is.

The bible is mostly full of lies created by male rulers to have people follow their rules.

God doesn't want women to be timid weaklings who let their husbands walk all over them.

[Agape93]

That's why initially he created Adam and Lilith, both from the ground at the same time, as equals. But Adam wanted to be above her, so God cast out Lilith and made eve from adams rib, so he'd always be above her. Funny how Christianity cut that part out, of a woman being equal to a man.

[Msputiton]

@Agape93 almost everything in the bible is a contractdiction of God's words.
God is merciful. But then if we piss him off he sends vengeance upon us. But sends jesus down to die to clense our sins.
Vanity is a sin, but we have to constantly prove our love to gos by worshipping him at all times. And following a ridiculous amount of trivial rules. He brags (vanity) that job is fully faithful to him and can never waver to the devil. So they pretty much make a bet that if the devil tortures him enough he will break. Really? I'm supposed to believe this is what god would do

[Msputiton]

God just wants us to be kind to each other. Love each other. Help each other and always try to follow our hearts with love.
He won't force himself on us, and will always be there when we call for his help.

[Agape93]

Yeap.

Gods all merciful, but smites a man who dropped a box and flooded a planet because his own creatures did as he made them to do.

All wise, constantly has to fix shit he did.

All powerful, can't make a universe that doesn't suck on its own.

Not a deity worth worshipping

[Ill_made_Knight]

Lilith was (is) often characterized as a sort of "she-demon" also I think...

[Msputiton]

@Agape93 god is great. The problem is we take the word of humans to explain how something they don't fully understand works.
And the world is full of love and joy. Yes there is suffering but the thing we forget. God isn't creating the suffering. It is the devil who lives in hell full of misery and self loving. He wants us to suffer as he does, and if he believes their is a chance to steal a soul from God he will put his suffering upon you.
God is not the one causing pain. It is the devil.
But we constantly blame god for our pain and suffering and ignore the one causing it.

[Ill_made_Knight]

I like what Georeg Carlin said...

"Religion convinced the world that there's an invisible man in the sky who watches everything you do. And there are 10 things he doesn't want you to do or else you'll go to a burning place with a lake full of fire until the end of eternity. But he loves you! .. And he needs money ! He's all powerful, but he can't handle money!

[Agape93]

She is, but only after she was cast out.

Babe the Bible itself says God created good and evil. He made everything, every disease. Every concept. All of it. The culpability belongs to him.

[Msputiton]

@Agape93 the Bible is humans explainaing things that they don't understand.
These were the same uneducated people who tried to find reason for lightening as zeus throwing lightning bolts. Tragic events happened and they wanted someone to blame it on. Because they couldn't accept that sometimes bad things just happen

[Agape93]

That's all we have to go off of, unless you want to go back to the original source, Jewish polytheism. God doesn't talk to people, not really.

But im not going to argue with you. You're welcome to what you believe, no judgement

[Msputiton]

@Agape93 i know it. I just read it and pick the parts that make sense. Ya know what i mean. And just like everyone else i have an interpretation that suits me best.
And yeah i wasn't arguing. It was just an interesting conversation learning your views and you learning mine.

[Agape93]

I know, I just know how I get, especially when in a bad headspace tk begin with. Figured I'd end it before I pushed too much lol

[Msputiton]

Let's be honest i could one day die and learn it was all a lie, but the belief their is an all powerful being who loves and protects me if needed brings me comfort, so even if it is a lie, it does have a positive effect on my life

[Msputiton]

@Agape93 understand and respect that🥰

[Agape93]

Nothing wrong with that. Even if I died and learned it was a lie, at least I lived how I wished and stayed true to myself and what little morals I have

[Msputiton]

@Agape93 and that is what I love the most about you🥰

[Agape93]

Same to you love :)

[Juxtapose]

Women are out earning us and they have inherent value we do not (they can always go on onlyfans or get a sugar daddy while us men cannot). Why would they listen to us as leaders when they see men tripping over themselves to simp? When they see how much more value they are by society?

[Juxtapose]

*valued

[letuswaltzforthedead]

It's the basic relationship so no, I don't think it's so terrible. Couples should be free to choose the best relationship structure that works for them (and it's more often with the man leading the relationship)