How do you rationalize God's cruelty in the old testament?

[Anonymous]

If you're a new testament Christian and don't even know what I'm talking about, read Numbers 31 as an example.

[Hispanic-Cool-Guy]

Notice why God pours out his wrath. It's because people are evil and do evil things therefore punishment comes upon them by God.

As far as why God commanded the army of Israel to wipe out certain nations was because those nations were hell bent on destroying the nation of Isreal and because they practiced all kinds of immoral filth like sacrificing their children alive by burning to idols, incest, homosexauilty, and all kinds of evil stuff.

Romans 1:18-32:

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.

For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

Professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature.

Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting;

being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful;

who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

[Asker]

That justifies the murdering of children and raping of young virgins? You're belief of religion is exactly the kind that leads people to blow up buildings. No amount of injustice warrants the harm of the innocent.

[Hispanic-Cool-Guy]

Look, those people were horrible people. Do you think the males once grown up wouldn't try to kill the soliders who killed their forefathers?

Trust me they would've seek revenge. You never let your enemies grow up to kill you.

The soliders didn't rape young virgins. They were taken and givin to teens boys to marry them.

[jacquesvol]

If we have to believe the Bible, that god created them with all that in them.
IF we have to believe the Bible... :|
And the Tenakhe and the Quran say it too.
IF we have to believe these old legends... :|

[Asker]

@Hispanic This is the exact mentality used to justify honor killings and suicide bombings. The exact same. Did you really just say "never let our enemies grow up to kill you"? Sounds an awful lot like the rhetoric of modern terrorist groups in Palestine.

No amount if injustice warrants the killing of the innocent

[Hispanic-Cool-Guy]

Look, God revealed himself to those people. They weren't hearing strange voices. Go read the old testement. Exdous and Dueroromy and Leviticus entirely. God knows why he does what he does.

He is a God and thinks like a God. You're a human with extremly limited understanding yet you think you can think at a God's level.

God knows why these people should have died in war.

[Asker]

So Islamic holy war is ok because they truly believe they're doing God's work?

[Hispanic-Cool-Guy]

Dude Islam is of the Devil. Literally. The God of Islam is Satan in disguise. I'm talking about the one and true God Yahweh.

[Hispanic-Cool-Guy]

www.girlsaskguys.com/.../a35574-why-christianity-is-the-only-true-religion-of-god

[claw09]

@Hispanic-Cool-Guy

"He is a God and thinks like a God. You're a human with extremly limited understanding yet you think you can think at a God's level."

You just used human reasoning to say that you can't understand God through human reasoning...

[jacquesvol]

@Hispanic-Cool-Guy "The soldiers didn't rape young virgins. They were taken and givin to teens boys to marry them." As if these young virgins wanted that. Unwanted sex IS rape, then and now.

[claw09]

Ah, but now it's legal rape. Duh.

[jacquesvol]

@claw09 "legal rape" NOT

[claw09]

Lol. Jk

[tromicf]

I will be honest. I struggle with this question sometimes even though I am a committed Christian who tries my best to follow the counsel of all scripture.

Where I'm at at the moment in this topic is these people from other nations were coming under the judgement of God because of their sin. This is a consistent idea in the old testament seen right back to Genesis 3 when Adam and Eve first sinned. The people of Israel were chosen to carry out the judgement of God.

Speaking specifically to methods it seems consistent with general acts of war throughout history and I see rape thrown around a lot but I can't explicitly see that in the text and it seems to be an assumption from silence but hard to perfectly argue either way.

Speaking to the character of God I definitely deny the thinking that there is a cruel old testament God and a loving new testament God as I see complete consistency. We are all sinners who are destined to come under the judgement of God, these days however that judgement will come after death and not the same as numbers.

However God shows love and Grace by first choosing Israel as his people and then in the new testament sent Jesus to die for the sins of those who would believe and spare them God's judgement.

So really not sure if that answer satisfies but like I said sometimes I struggle with things. However I know that God is real, He loves me and he has saved me and I will submit to him as my king even if there are some things that I would think I'd have done differently. Because really a God who created the universe and overcame death would do a much better job than me haha

Anyway if youve read this thank you and God bless you

[kaylaS91]

the same way Muslims justify Muhammed's pedophilia/sexist tendencies.
By saying that it was the norm at the time.

[Asker]

Do you think that's an honest, legitament method?

[kaylaS91]

no I don't. But I also don't believe that any of the holy books are all that factual so I'm commenting from a completely objective point of view.

Though it is fascinating how much millions are people are willing to put logic aside to defend these fictional deities.

[Sweetmom]

God had a reason for what he did, The Bible tried to make us understand but his logic is always the best logic

[Asker]

Are you even familiar with the events I'm talking about? He literally commanded the rape and murder of innocent virgin children. I don't care how strong your faith is, you can't justify that

[Sweetmom]

God had a reason, God knew what would happen if they weren't killed

[Asker]

That's awfully convenient to justify your worldview

[Sweetmom]

I am not going to justify his reasons, I am not God

[Asker]

That's not what I said. I said it was awfully convienent for you to use that to justify your beliefs, despite the character of God being completely antithetical to every moral fiber you posses

[Sweetmom]

I am not going to argue with an atheist since you clearly have a reason for everything you do.

[Asker]

What reason is that?

[Sweetmom]

For everything,

[Sweetmom]

Human beings make mistakes but God is the only one that does not. But I am done responding to an atheist

[Asker]

Why do you get so offended when your belief is challenged? It just goes to show how fragile it really is

[Sweetmom]

You know what my faith is a little Rocky but I am trying to get through it, unlike you I am not interested in questioning my Lord and savior.

[Asker]

Because you know faith is bullshit and you're afraid what will happen if you actually open your eyes

[Hispanic-Cool-Guy]

The fact you are attacking her the way you are doing show you are doubting whatever you belief.

If you think religion or Christianity is non sense why stress over it?

I don't concern myself with Big foot. Why? Because it's fantasy to me.

Leave religion alone and out of your life.

[Asker]

It's good mental exercise to challenges my beliefs and inspire critical thinking in others. The same way some people join book clubs. They discuss it because they enjoy analysising the literature, not because they believe it's true. And that's the difference here. People actually believe this stuff is true despite the massive inconsistencies and logical fallacies. They go their own lives without analysing what they were taught. It's sad, really.

And to be honest, even though it may make me an asshole in some situations, it's fun to poke holes in the flawed, fragile, poorly thought out arguments of religious people.

[Sweetmom]

I don't care what you say

[Asker]

And that's the problem with religion. You've been bred to do what you're told and follow the leader. Told not to think for yourself or you'll spend all of eternity in hell. I find that despicable. Carry on then because in the end, neither of our belief systems affect eachother. I just don't think most religious people can truly maximize their intellectual potential.

[Hispanic-Cool-Guy]

Dude I know what I believe in. I'm not one of this fools that believe just whatever they been told.

If you think that of me then fine. I know what's true.

Jesus is Lord. The Bible is the word of God like it or not.

I posted the link in somewhere in the comment section yesterday that proves why The Bible is God's word.

[Hispanic-Cool-Guy]

And here is another link on the scientific facts of the Bible.

[Hispanic-Cool-Guy]

www.girlsaskguys.com/.../a47982-athiests-checkmate-god-s-word-stands-true-bible-scientific-facts

[Asker]

That was a response to Sweetmom.

But you haven't proved the bible is true. I saw links but they were broken and I couldn't follow them.

It's not a fact that Jesus is Lord, no matter how much you desperately want it to be true.

[Hispanic-Cool-Guy]

Ok. Have a nice day.

[Asker]

If you're so sure, why are you so quick to just give up? The links you've given me aren't working. I can't even click on them. If you've got proof, I'm open to hearing it.

[Hispanic-Cool-Guy]

Try again.

www.girlsaskguys.com/.../a47982-athiests-checkmate-god-s-word-stands-true-bible-scientific-facts

[Hispanic-Cool-Guy]

www.girlsaskguys.com/.../a35574-why-christianity-is-the-only-true-religion-of-god

[Asker]

It doesn't work when you link me to other GaG posts

[Hispanic-Cool-Guy]

I can click on them and it's working fine for me.

You can go under the religion section on GAG and read all Mytakes.

[Asker]

Why can't you just lay out your evidences right here?

[Hispanic-Cool-Guy]

Too much to write and explain. Just go the search engine and type the title and see if it pops up.

[AlexLM]

To put that chapter into perspective, the Middianites were an unspeakably wicked people. I'm talking burning babies as sacrifices and stuff. These people were literally crazy lol
When Japan threatened to take down the USA, the Americans pretty much blew up their island.
I'm not saying that the Americans are comparable to God, I'm just saying that when faced with a people that won't turn away from performing such vile and evil acts against not only themselves, but others as well - it needs to end.

[kevincash158]

There is no rationalization required, you are inferring that Christians have to justify God's actions. God punishes those who break their covenant with him. There is no need to rationalize this. Ask Communists what they do with traitors, ask what happens to people who flee Cuba and NK and get caught. Ask what happens when you break the tax laws of any State, hint: you get thrown in a cage - cruelly.

Humanity is a far crueler judge than God is. Nature is as well, we all die.

Break the covenant, get punished. No need to justify God's actions, we have the same basic principle in human law.

[Asker]

Are you a Christian?

[kevincash158]

I gave you a valid answer. That is all I am giving you.

[Asker]

It's not a valid answer, but ok

[Anonymous]

You can't. Jesus is god incarnate, he is the same god from the old testament. Wrath is a sin and god is sinful. God killed many tribes that threatened the Israelites, he also told the Israelites to take women as slave after war and don t forget the big one killed every single man, woman, child and Animal via drowning for not believing but the standards of the 10 commandments he is a sinner. Just as you have no sympathy the man who kills in revenge you should have no sympathy for the "god" that smites. Yeah it's funny how that's written isn't it? don't kill unless your me. and from this point on i won't kill you directly, but i will order you to kill others. it's good whole family fun that bible is.

[Poppykate]

Yeah, if the bible was a movie... it would be banned! Lol 😂

[Opinion Owner]

@Poppykate
I think most churches would probably be the ones advocating for it to be banned.

[Opinion Owner]

MHO?

[Poppykate]

If they did it true to the book, it would need to rated X. Murder, rape, sex, nudity etc. Although that would draw in the crowds! Lol 😂

[Ayer93]

You don't. The old testament is a representation of morality of people in the past. People made up religion. And now even with all the information at our disposal in this generation there are still people that believe in religion. Why? Because it's run by families and passed to each generation by indoctrination.

[Anonymous]

You don't rationalize it. It's not rational. Christians will tell you that "God acts in mysterious ways"... or, "It is beyond human comprehension"... or, "It's a matter of faith." I don't believe any of that. I think these actions are vile, twisted and sick. When humans behave this way, we imprison them or lock them away in mental hospitals. In some cases, we even put them to death.

[mheltcel]

It was human beings acting despicable and claiming it was ok because God said so.

[Asker]

@mheltcel God did say so...

[mheltcel]

No... humans said God said so. He said she said bullshit.

[Asker]

If you can't take moses divine accounts literally, how can you decipher which divine revelation is true and which is made up?

[mheltcel]

Exactly. It's all a bunch of lies used to manipulate the masses. Like I said in my other post the only truth is love.

[Asker]

That doesn't make any sense either. It's just chemical processes in our body. Its just an emotion that can be wrong and mislead a person. There's no supernatural or spiritual aspect to it

[mheltcel]

Chemicals are matter. All matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration. And think back... what I told you love is... it's an energy field that binds us all together.
Bro are you even reading what I post

[Asker]

Yes. And it's insane. There's no basis in science to believe that. It's just chemical reactions in our brain that drive our actions. It's not some magical aura that spreads through energy or some shit.

It's a strong emotion, yes. But hatred can have the same affect. So can any other emotion.

[mheltcel]

Science absolutely backs it up.
Love is a chemical reaction I agree. However, and I encourage you to look it up, it is a scientific fact that chemicals are matter... made up of atoms. Matter is energy condensed to a slower vibration. So logical thinking tells us love is energy. It's the only truth I know. My third eye is open bro. Maybe you should work on yours.

[Asker]

Holy shit, you're nuts.

I realize me being so adamantly dismissive of your beliefs makes me seem close minded and arrogant but these kind of crazy beliefs don't even need to be entertained. It's pseudo-science not backed by actual fact.

You can't reasonable deduct that something being made of matter which is extensively just energy is therefore some kind of supernatural force in the world. Love is just a product of our brain processes. People can experience the same kind of love they feel for a person in literally anything else.

[mheltcel]

You call me crazy, but you couldn't begin to fathom the experiences I've had. Moses getting away with rape because he claimed God said it was kosher is a belief, that by having been entertained, has seperated us from the truth.

[Asker]

What experiences have you had?

[mheltcel]

Near death experiences... plural... Are you familiar with N, N-Dimethyltryptamine? It is the active chemical... there's that word again... in ayahuasca. Also is naturally produced by the brain didn't certain neurological processes. Look it up.

[Asker]

What do near death experiences have to do with your belief of love being some binding energy for all mankind?

[mheltcel]

Your brain starts to shut down during death. It's a neurological process. One that causes N, N-Dimethyltryptamine to activate. Also having participated in an ayahuasca ceromony which also activates this powerful compound they call a psychedelic, a hyperbolic misnomer, I have seen the way things truly are and made it back to let everyone know.

Seriously. Do some research on N, N-Dimethyltryptamine. Look up experiences people have had on it. The difference between DMT and actual psychedelics like psilocybin or lsd is people who do DMT often... eerily often... report the exact same experience.
I don't give a shit if you agree with me... I just ask that you do your research before you claim someones thoughts are crazy. I've researched the history of the old testament. You should read about the zionist agenda... you're thoughts about moses being a pretty swell guy will have changed.

[Asker]

I never said moses was "A pretty swell guy". My whole point of this post was that he wasn't.

And you're misinterpreting all this scientific data. Plain and simple. You're crazy.

[mheltcel]

Funny how one can as a smart man look like a mad man to a dumb man.

[Asker]

You're not smart. You believe on pseudo-science and conspiracy theories. You're the definition of insane

[mheltcel]

Wrong again bro. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. It's ok that you're a little slow. We people of higher intelligence need people like you. If there were no dumb people, we wouldn't know how smart we really were.
The fact that your just dismissing me as crazy rather than doing research and trying to learn something new just reiterates how dumb you really are.

[Asker]

Lol, ok. Crazy conspiracy theories don't need to be entertained. Believing love is a literal energy connect all human beings is fucking ludicrous. You read 2 articles on some conspiracy website and held to it.

[mheltcel]

con·spir·a·cy the·o·ry

noun

a belief that some covert but influential organization is responsible for a circumstance or event.

How is a spiritual belief a conspiracy theory?

[Asker]

Going back and reading how I've handled my comments to you, I can understand why you think I'm just some reactionary idiot. I still believe you're wrong but apologize for how immaturely I've handled my responses to you. I haven't put much thought to my responses.

I think you're misconstruing the research you cite. We live in a natural world and there's no reason to expect there to be any supernatural elements.

By conspiracy, I simply meant pseudo-science. Once you interpret the data to mean something spiritual, it's no longer science. It's spirituality. And I don't see the logic behind using science to explain spirituality.

[mheltcel]

I appreciate the apology.

Whether or not your faith aligns with mine makes no difference to me. I believe what I believe because of my life experiences. I know it to be true regardless if anyone thinks I'm crazy.

[Asker]

You're entitled to your belief but your experiences don't make something fact. I think your opinions are derived from very weak evidences and I just got a little annoyed when you insisted that I wasn't reading what you post.

[Riggers]

Both are bed time stories for kids so it dosent really matter tbh, No point worrying about fairy tales and sky pixies doing naughty stuff in a widdle old book, chief.

[F1r3byte]

I am not sure I wanna read these terrible stories to my future kids before they go to sleep... XD

[mheltcel]

The old testament as we know it today is false. It is pure zionist propaganda with the end game of a one world government.

[Asker]

What about the new testament?

[mheltcel]

Which version? The only truth is love bruh

[Asker]

What is love?

[mheltcel]

"It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together."
Basically love is god and vice versa.

[Asker]

Love is just a chemical reaction in our bodies

[mheltcel]

Chemicals are matter. All matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration. And think back... what is love? It's an energy field created by all living things.

[sawno]

That is not the action of the god i believe in. The bible is full of acts more in common with the devil then with god.

[Asker]

But you wouldn't call yourself a Christian, right?

[sawno]

I wouldn't no.

[Belgie]

By remembering that God is a fiction, created by the minds of the men of the time. They used him as an unseen explanation of terrible things,

[claw09]

@Hispanic-Cool-Guy

"He is a God and thinks like a God. You're a human with extremly limited understanding yet you think you can think at a God's level."

You just used human reasoning to say that you can't understand God through human reasoning...

[claw09]

Whoops, this was meant to be a reply. My bad.

[Hispanic-Cool-Guy]

Dude there are things of God I understand through his word. But can you honestly say we have the capacity to think at the level of a eternal all powerful being? Be serious.

[claw09]

You're still using human reason to understand the nature of God's knowledge by saying that human reason is incapable of understanding the nature of God's knowledge.

[Anonymous]

Without rationalizing eden, god created man who was cast out from gods grace instantly he was tempted. "In his own image". To achieve redemption man seeks to survive being cast out from eden, the wilderness wasn't eden. And boy was god annoyed at the devil who fell from grace and, also cast the angel out of heaven.

[strateguy632]

One way is by saying the old testament stories are fables that didn't happen. just told to teach severity of some of the sins.

[NateP22]

cruelty isn’t necessarily an imperfect characteristic

[Asker]

Are you familiar with the acts of the God of the old testament?

[Ayte_Lex]

There's no such thing as a "New Testament Christian"
Just putting that out there.
You either believe, or you don't. You can't pick and choose.

[Ayte_Lex]

Also, if I remember correctly, in numbers 31, they killed all of the women who have slept with other men. A woman was not to be with other men after that.
They spared the women that were pure still. Am I correct?

I don't remember seeing anywhere where it said they raped Women and Children.

Please, if I am wrong.
Copy and paste a portion of scripture that I may have missed. Give me the exact verse and where I can find it.

[HamAndCheese]

Lol dude it's describing a war. Of course it's cruel. And according to the passage those people were evil.

[Asker]

War as defined by humanity. God literally commanded the rape of innocent women and children. God is supposed to supersede the cruelty of man, not partake in it. If a warlord today allowed his men to rape his captives, you and everyone else would demand action be taken to stop him

[HamAndCheese]

But they weren't innocent because god said they were evil. Finally, God doesn't necessarily lack the ability to be cruel.

[Asker]

That sounds awfully similar to the justifications Islamic terrorists give. Eerily similar.

[HamAndCheese]

Okay but that's beyond the scope of the discussion. We're going on the assumption here that god is real, and if he is then he's probably right about them being evil.

[Asker]

That's not at all beyond the scope of this conversation. If you'll demonize those behaviors from someone else's God, it's hypocritical for you to turn a blind eye when your god does it.

[HamAndCheese]

I don't have a god. And in the context of this discussion, other people's gods aren't relevant because you're discussing the old testament's god so naturally other gods in that context would be written off as fraudulent or irrelevant. He's God, thus he is never wrong, thus when he says people are evil, he's right, because if he was wrong he wouldn't be God.

[Asker]

That is the same exact thing Islamists use as justification. I understand that in the context of the bible, you see it as justification but when applied to the real world, it doesn't hold up.

Think about what you're saying. You are telling me that god was just when he murdered our entire species and commanded his followers in to war. When he commanded them to commit war crimes.

That is an irreconcilable opinion to have. The exact same opinion you demonize modern terrorists for

[HamAndCheese]

It's literally a parable though, and nobody today actually kills anyone over it. You're starting to lose sight of your original question here. So to reanswer it in the simplest terms possible to help you better understand...

God treated them in a cruel fashion because they were an evil people who he decided should be wiped out.

[Asker]

Re-wording your answer didn't change the meaning at all. You're still justifying the vile, despicable acts committed by God and his followers. I haven't lost sight of my question.

It's not a parable. Its a literal account told in the bible as truth. And you're justifying it.

If god commanded you to commit those acts, would you?

[HamAndCheese]

Yes. Because he's God, and as God, as dictated in Judeo-Christian faiths, he is omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, and omnibeneficient. As such, he literally cannot make an error. So if he tells you to do something, then it simply must be, by default, a good plan.

[Asker]

Then you're no better than the Islamic terrorists

[HamAndCheese]

How many people have I killed? How many have they killed? I would kill for a god, but I don't believe in one, and likely never will. Explain to me, my simple minded compatriot, where I am losing you here...

1. God is real. (You implied this with your question.)
2. God by definition cannot make a mistake and is totally perfect. (If yes, then continue to point 3. If no, then he's not god and this is a moot question.)
3. Therefore his commands, which come from him, and carry his blessing, are perfect.

[Asker]

If you don't believe in god, why are you even arguing with me?

[HamAndCheese]

Because you asked a question and I wanted to help you learn something about theology today so that you could have a better understanding of other people's religious beliefs.

[Anonymous]

because humans suck and turned out to be complete disappointments to him, but he hasn't made up his mind yet to wipe them all out at once

[Asker]

Lol that's definitely a loving god

[Opinion Owner]

Maybe he have second thoughts and regrets about casting Lucifer into hell. He probably realized when he ordered all of his angels to bow down before the creation of humans, that Lucifer may actually had done the right thing and refused to bow down to humanity, the mess that humans turned out to be. Perhaps he really knew all along that his favorite angel was actually right about the way how humans would turn out to be, huge disappointments, let downs, failed experiments. Maybe he had thought he probably should have listened to him in the first place, but he insisted on taking the risks and chances with it. He probably realized or if he had not already knew beforehand that Lucifer was merely just trying to save him all of the disappointments that adding humans into his world would lead to. Maybe he realized he really shouldn't have created humans, but can't decide if he should wipe the slate clean again or not, or maybe he had, but have not decided when exactly to do so yet.

[DamnMan]

Nope.
What happens in Jerusalem, stays in Jerusalem.

[Asker]

"Nope" to what?

[F1r3byte]

Well said.

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

Making people burn in hell for eternity for not accepting him is far more cruel than anything that he did in the old Testament.

[gobsmacked3]

There are many standout flaws in all religions. My way to rationalise is to avoid Religion. Note, I was brought up as a devout Catholic

[TheSpartan]

What about it? There’s nothing that needs justification.

[Asker]

You don't feel there needs to be justification for god commanding the rape and murder of innocent children?

[TheSpartan]

What rape? And no, God is the final judge and arbiter on all things moral and immoral.

[Asker]

You clearly have no knowledge if the God of the old testament

[TheSpartan]

You clearly have no grasp of how ethics are derived 🙄

[Asker]

Please explain that to me

[TheSpartan]

Ethics are derived from God, who is the author of life. He is free to take and give life as he sees fit.

[Asker]

Wrong.

[TheSpartan]

Explain

[Asker]

That assumes that the God of the bible is the one true God and that's an unvarifiable claim. Society can't build our morals off of religion because it's entirely subjective to the ready. Ethics are derived from individuals interactions with eachother and the world around. You may derive your ethics from the bible but that doesn't make it the objective standard.

[TheSpartan]

If you believe God doesn’t exist, then why are you asking this question? The question contains the pretense of a hyptothical world in which the God of the Bible does exist and he’s giving morally-ambiguous or revolting commands. In such a case, we’re talking about objective ethics from a supreme being.

[Asker]

It's examining literature. We do this on a regular basis with other fictional works. The difference here is people actually believe this and these beliefs need to be challenged.

[TheSpartan]

That doesn’t answer the question. The Bible being fictional or not would have no bearing on the question. Let’s presume we’re talking about a fictional world; in such a world, God is the all-powerful author of ethics and morality. In such a world, because ethics derive from him, he is free to do as he pleases within the bounds of ethics.

[Asker]

Yes. I understand that in the context of the literature. But when you take that literature and try to apply it as literal fact in our world, it doesn't add up. That's the point im making.

So you're saying our subjective human morality tells us that rape and murder of innocents is immoral but god can supersede that subjective morality because he's God? That's a dangerous mentality to have.

[TheSpartan]

Then your point is bizarre. A God you don’t believe in can’t make morality judgements. I really don’t understand the point you’re trying to make here.

[Asker]

I told it, I'm analysing the literature. Just as you did when you read Macbeth in middle school English class. The fact that people literally belief this literature as fact means it needs to be challenged because it has an affect on the world.

[TheSpartan]

Alright, and? We already established that God would hypothetically have such an ability to define ethics on his terms. What’s your point?

[Asker]

Holy shit. Are you a troll? I told you. It's a dangerous mentality. It's what leads people to excommunicate gays from the church or blow up buildings. When yoy honestly believe the ethics bestowed by your personal god supersede the ethics agreed upon by Society, you become a danger to society.

[TheSpartan]

Ethics bestowed by God very-much do supersede subjective, fleeting societal standards. What’s your point? Society is subservient to God, not Vice versa.

[Asker]

According to your worldview but your worldview is not fact

[Asker]

Anyway, my question was answered so there's nothing left to discuss. You think it's ok for god to command men to rape and murder virgins and children. That's clear now. Don't you dare say you're a good person

[TheSpartan]

My question is this: where do you get objective standards for good vs. evil?

[TheSpartan]

My worldview is exactly fact.

[Asker]

Lol "fact". It's a fact that raping innocent women and children for the crimes of their fathers is immoral. Its an opinion that god can supersede that immortality and command his followers to do the same.

[TheSpartan]

So, you have a basis for objective ethics. What is that basis?

[Asker]

Why do you think objective morality is necessary for our species to exist?

[TheSpartan]

You’re the one who just claimed that rape and murder are “factually” unethical. What do you base that on, if societal morals are subjective?

[Asker]

Are you seriously about to sit there and tell me rape is sometimes justified? Are you fucking kidding me?

[TheSpartan]

No, I’m asking you where you personally get this idea that rape and murder are objectively unethical.

[Asker]

In view of humanity. To maintain a functioning society just for all, we must resolve ourselves to live peacefully and that can't be done without everyone agreeing not to harm eachother unprovoked. If we didn't, it would be anarchy.

But you're using my position as a diversion from your own shortcomings. You absolutely are saying rape is sometimes justified because you turn a blind eye when Moses and his followers did it. A loving god would not allow his innocent creations to be raped. Fuck your "we can't understand his ways" bullshit. That's a copout to justify worships a god who isn't deserving of it.

[TheSpartan]

And what makes you believe that’s where objective morality is based? In utilitarianism?

I’m not claiming that. I’m claiming God can do whatever he wants.

[Asker]

When you think about mose's rape victims, what do you think? You know damn well you feel pitty for them. They didn't deserve to be raped but your god commanded it. A god who would command the rape of innocent women and children is not a god worth worshiping. He's not a loving god. He's not a compassionate god. He's a jealous, ammoral warlord.

Yes, yes, I know. "He's god so the morality he imposes on us does not apply to him" Fuck that. Fuck. That. Thats just your pathetic excuse for the vile, immoral bullshit you forced to believe.

And no, you can't conclude that I'm not a Christian because I "Hate god". It's all just literature and I'm analysing it. I don't believe your god is real. I saw the massive contradictions in the bible and through my research, concluded it couldn't be trusted as fact.

[TheSpartan]

Lmao you expect me to take you seriously after your autistic freak out?

[Asker]

If you want to interpret my use of a tad bit of profanity as an autistic freak out, go ahead. But it's just an excuse to avoid addressing anything I said

[Anonymous]

They made up the new testament to ignore the old one

[strateguy632]

But new one quoted old so can't be to ignore old.

[Humbledman74006]

Explain the unexplainable, through great works of fiction and ignorance.

[Anonymous]

WTF are you talking about? Zionist propaganda? One world government?
Dude you are a nut job!!!

[Opinion Owner]

This app sucks. Was supposed to be a reply to @mheltcel

[Asker]

He just means that the bible was fabricated to justify Jewish holy war in ancient times

[Opinion Owner]

How do you get that from the old testament? Jewish holy war in Ancient times? Wtf?

[Asker]

Have you actually read the old testament? In it's entirety and not had your pastor cherry pick the good verses for you?

[Opinion Owner]

It is a bunch of myths and stories, not a historical account and not propaganda to justify a non existent holy war.

[Opinion Owner]

Besides it was written after the wars took place, not before. How can a storytellers history of past accounts be used as propaganda for something that already happened. Nothing in the old Testament tells people to wage holy war today. It's simply pseudo historical accounts written after the fact and fictionalized for effect.

[Anonymous]

that's the only way to stop people doing evil things

[Asker]

Commanding modes to rape and murder innocent virgin children was the only way? Really?

[Asker]

*moses

[strateguy632]

But the chapter you quoted Numbers 31 doesn't contain "Commanding moses to rape and murder innocent virgin children" you made up something bad that really isn't in bible.

[Seppelson]

Who cares? It's just a book written by a few Opium junkies

[F1r3byte]

More like schizophrenics with a magnitude of anti-social personality disorders.

Opium junkies must have felt insulted by your comment. All they do is get high and do goofy shit. XD

[Volvagia]

lol religious people b crazy

[F1r3byte]

Your god is a fucking dictator and an asshole.

[AustinTXGuy]

Don't need to

[Asker]

Why?