1620 Why were the Dutch escaping the catholic church when they were in the Dutch golden age, when they were very rich and powerful.
1620 The pilgrims weren't escaping the Catholic church, they were escaping the Church of England and king James the 1st who is responsible for the king James bible most prodestants read was king.
The pilgrims were escaping religious persecution in their minds but in reality they were extremists. Some compare them to the Taliban in terms of religious extremism.
James I said 'No Bishops, No King'. So the Church of England was part of the Stuart absolutism. That was the fashion, then for monarchs to become absolutist which they never were in the medieval period. Ditto in France. The Church was a bastion for authoritarianism.
Puritans wanted no bishops so while James I was not Catholic (as his successors became) he wanted to keep catholic elements such as divine right of bishops. There was tension between what were to be high and low church elements. The King James Bible was a concession to Puritan demands of reform of the Church of England.
Puritans still had to pay tithes to the Church of England so that was taxation etc etc. Puritans also thought the Church of England was papist and Catholic like so in part they were fleeing another version of Catholicism.
There was an element of fleeing Catholicism I would suggest.
The English Revolution predated the American Revolution by a century so not everybody was happy about the situation. By 1642 it was civil war over taxation without representation in England.
So in 1620 it is probably safe to assume there was enough disgruntlement to seek new pastures. Plus free land (once the Indians were shot out) shouldn't be underestimated..
When king Henry got rid of the catholic church, England and Scotland became a wash with many very radical Christian groups vying for power. Just look what happened with Oliver Cromwell a Puritan, he basically overided democracy and seized power making himself all but king in name, a dictator or absolut ruler who banned such things as Christmas and wielded more power and authority than the king had beheaded. The English civil war was fought because the landed wealthy classes didn't want to pay taxes to support military spending and war but ended up doing that. Cromwell's rule was so severe and miserable that Charles the 2nd was welcomed back with open arms.
Remember catholics were actually persecuted at the time of James the 1st so bad they tried to blow up parliament.
The free land I think was a reason many different Protestant groups in England left for the Americas, I know many of the ulster plantations orginially from Scotland and England on the best land in Ireland given to them by the crown up and left for America.
Yeah Hitler was a good guy because Germany now has Autobahns, introduced the first environmental protection laws, child allowance money, social welfare and free healthcare.
Exactly :) More seriously look at this period from the perspective of a foundational step towards modern representational responsible gov't. Charles I was a tyrant who only called parliament when he had to. The Scots had kicked Bishops out for being a papist autocratic anachronism. Charles I launched a war to put Bishops back into the system but needed money to fight this war.
He called the Short Parliament who wanted to talk about the excesses of the crown. The dress bill for his mistresses was staggering. Charles didn't want his domestic arrangements to be up for discussion. So he dismissed Parliament and the wardrobe bill issue after 3 weeks.
But he was forced to call the Long Parliament which was just as fixated on dress bills and not minded to give him more money to waste on his floosies.
At this point it became a fight for responsible gov't and the supremacy of parliament. Eventually it came down to a parliamentary army fighting the Royal army. At this point Oliver C was nothing.
But it turned out he had a natural talent for commanding cavalry and became prominent. Eventually as Lord protector.
It is highly significant to us now that Oliver C was instrumental in wining the English Civil War and establishing the supremacy of parliament. The foundation step to democratic government. The UK would not become a democracy till after WWI but this was the first baby step.
It all went to hell because, aside from the Roman Republic, nobody knew how to run a gov't without a King in charge. Even here Oliver C was significant because he was a very very very really really really good bad example.
So scholars started working on theory for running a parliamentary semi democratic gov't. Locke amongst others just in time for the American Revolution.
All this traces directly back to Oliver C, so I think we should honor him and get over the papist Stuart spin doctoring.
Just worth mentioning that although Charles 1st was a tyrant, Britain as it was then was an oligarchy were only members of the landed class had a vote.
Oh yes. The US revolted against the tyranny of oligarchic Westminster not jolly King George III.
It was only after WW1 that there was UK universal franchise - 1918 for men, 1928 for women. You can take your pick of which marks the start of UK democracy but it has to be one of those dates.
Equiv dates in US are 1856 and 1920. Earliest dates for universal male franchise are 1848 in Europe.
Australian ballot or secret ballot is an important ingredient too. UK 1872, US 1891.
Democracy was a late 1800's thing and a slow development over time. I'm pro Oliver C & English Civil War simply because that was the first step. Yay too, for the Glorious Revolution of 1688 which brought King William & Queen Mary to the throne. There is a fair bit there for a UK person to be proud of contributing to the world. I'm quite proud of Australian contributions too; like secret ballot and printed ballot papers amongst others.
Sadly truly responsible gov't is yet to be achieved with immigration. I think you'll agree on that.
But on the original question, whilst the Pope was sacked in 1534 there was still a lot of papism in the CoE at James I reign which puritans objected to and they carried that narrative to the US. Same as King George being a tyrant when he wasn't.
Both are false narratives with some kernel of truth in them.
ah... the knowledge of good and evil...
What we are educated on but it's very general information, no detail. Probably much more we should know. I thought the primary issue was having layers of priests between the person and God vs direct to God, read it yourself kinda thinking. Thus, freedom.
and some of their buddies later on burned women at the stake based upon their perceptions and ignorance. The issue being... fear.
So I can't say that I really know the answer, I'm throwing a dart blindfolded.
Doesn't change the fact that England was a Protestant country in which the Pilgrims fled.
maybe the others smelled bad?
It seems the pilgrims, who were English Protestants, were fleeing the Catholic influence in the Anglican Church of England. Anyone who attends Episcopal services will see they are almost identical to Catholic services. The only difference was the Pope was not the head of the Anglican Church (Church of England or Episcopal Church) and Anglican priests were allowed to marry.
The pilgrims were against the similarities, and wanted a more stripped down service with the people being directly in contact with God during services and not need the go-between of the priest, is my best guess.
But this wasn't accepted in England and pilgrims wanted to practice their version of religion without being in conflict with Church of England authority, or being discriminated against. But the pilgrims weren't Catholics, if that's what you mean.
Really not so sure about that. There were many groups of Protestants in England at the time just as extreme as the puritans, the British crown wanted to retain control of the new religion but eventually would be executed and overthrown by a puritan dictator. Puritians ultimately wanted the church of England to be completely partial and the country run by puritans. There was also a struggle in Britain between the church of England (Anglican church), the Presbyterian church and puritans with the pilgrims who went to America wanting to separate completely from the church of England and crown.
Whole idea of who controls my religious practice seems to be the issue. They didn't want the government /king involved. Sounds like that's the kernal!
England hadn't long been out of a period of civil war and mass witchcraft trails. The country was healing and the concept of tolerance was setting in. Most people were happy but there were a few religious extremists who disapproved. They wanted to ban singing, dancing, sports, even Christmas and force everyone to live miserable puritan lives.
The pilgrims didn't flee from persecution they left to be free to persecute. The fact witchcraft trials continued long after they finished in Europe and they went on a Indian killing spread proves they were not good people.
The pilgrims were pre civil war. James 1st started the witch trials when he was king of Scotland, he killed thousands
Opinion
22Opinion
Many Americans think the Pilgrims were fleeing Catholicism because they were Puritan Separatists who believed the Church of England was too similar to the Catholic Church and had not been reformed enough. They wanted to escape government persecution for not conforming to the state-mandated Church of England and sought the freedom to practice their own brand of Protestantism, which involved a more radical break from practices they considered "Catholic".
Reasons for the misconception and historical context
The "Purification" of the Church of England: The Pilgrims, and Puritans in general, wanted to "purify" the Church of England of all remaining Catholic influences like elaborate rituals, a state-controlled hierarchy, and ornate churches.
The Protestant Reformation's Impact: The Protestant Reformation, which led to the split from the Roman Catholic Church in England under Henry VIII, created a religious landscape with deep divisions between Catholics, Anglicans, and various Protestant groups like the Separatists.
Persecution for Non-Conformity: The Pilgrims were persecuted by the English government, which enforced religious conformity through fines, imprisonment, and even execution for those who refused to attend the Church of England.
The Pilgrims' Flight: Fearing persecution, the Pilgrims first fled to the Netherlands for religious freedom but later decided to go to the New World to preserve their English identity and establish their own religious society.
The Founders' Story: The common narrative of the Pilgrims is often simplified in American history, leading to a belief that they were fleeing a single oppressive Catholic church rather than the specific religious and political situation in England at the time.
the reason they are called Pilgrims is because they were on a pilgrimage “holy journey in search of a new holy land” it’s not just referring to the Dutch but all Quakers and Protestants etc. including German and English that wanted to practice their religion freely. In America we have protections so by law if you’re not permitted to worship freely “and as long as you’re not violating anyone else’s rights” it’s considered persecution. So that’s the way it’s taught.
How where you taught?
I think for most of the puritans it was because they couldn't impose their own religion on others in England
I thought Puritans came to the America’s to continue their pursuit of cleansing and one of the many reasons for the 1st Amendment “separation of church and state”.
due to their political power with the king, I don’t recall if any served in the continental army during the revolution but I imagine they did not receive a warm welcome.
The Pilgrims left Europe for a combination of religious and economic reasons. They were Separatists, a group that wanted to break away from the Church of England and faced persecution, which led them to seek religious freedom first in Holland. However, they feared losing their English culture and language, and a struggling economy in the Netherlands also prompted them to seek better economic opportunities in America
Remember that Europe had just been introduce to the bubonic plague and syphilis brought back from South America by Columbus' men. Curses from God? Revelations, a book warning Christians to avoid following Nero, and Rome. Crazy Shit. All were running scared. Mob mentality.
Thank you for inviting me to share.
I didn't know so many Americans thought that but I don't get out much.
We were taught they basically just didn't want to be told what to do or be killed/imprisoned for their beliefs which doesn't seem like too much to ask really.
Actually it was the Puritans that were doing all the killing. They were the far right nazis of the 17th century
@purplepoppy Yes. Damn Puritans hung a few of my ancestors.
Puritans.. The Puritans were fleeing the church of England. Granted they were also the pilgrims. It wasn't oppression they were running away from, They were leaving because they felt the church of England was not strict enough.
The Pilgrims were closer to the Amish than the Taliban.
Tell that to Oliver Cromwell
Those from england you are right, fled anglican church, that was the main point in Thanksgiving... but from spain fled to new world to flee catholic.
Those from England were upset that they couldn't impose their religious beliefs on everyone the way puritan dictator Oliver Cromwell would 20 years later.
Spainish didn't flee from the Catholic church, they brought it with them and created the most powerful empire in the world at the time.
You ever seen the movie Eurotrip? At the 1:10 mark of this video it is explained why they came here.
The pilgrims were outcasts. They are regarded as heroes but they were really not humanity's best.
most americans don't know the pilgrim story
Because our schools teach so little American history nowadays, other than teaching kids that America/Capitalism/Christianity all suck.
I thought they were feeing England cause of the anarchy king that wouldn't let them practices their religion?
James the first known for the James the 1st bible most prodestants use.
Our teachers are retards, especially our history teachers
wasn't there a joke about all the presidents being white protestants? at least for a long time (until modern days)
We believe what we are told. Anyways religion and politics got very messed up. I'm not saying that the Pilgrims got everything right.
I am sure the experiences of the first 100 years led our founding father to separate church and state. And to make sure checks and balances were in place. And try to make sure all were equal before the law. There has to be a mechanism in place to correct the mistakes of past. Without that ability we won't fine tune. We will continue to be influenced by personal ambition and greed.
@AMS700CX4u2 I agree.
Americans aren't the best informed about anything
Well in the pilgrims' minds the Church of England still reeked of papism with its bishops and excessive ceremony.
Is that why they brought it with them?
Brought what?
Catholicism. Did you forget the topic, already? What's the FIRST THING they did when they got here? PRAYED!!!
They were prodestant
Protestant?
What's the difference? Religion is religion and they all worship the same people.
Because they know that in the past, Catholic church was persecuting Protestants in Europe.
In England, Germany, Holland, Norway, sweden catholics were being persecuted by Protestants
That's also true.
Note that Catholics were also persecuting Orthodox Christians, and Non-Christians (Atheists, Agnostics, Pantheists, Pagans, Jews, Muslims etc).
Jews for sure, there were ghettos all over the holy roman empire at the time. Not sure they were really coming into contact with orthodox Christians too much as they were being persecuted by muslims at the time in Greece and asia minor. Not sure atheists or agnostic were, this is around the time of the renaissance. Not sure there were in pagans left after the viking age ended.
They were coming into contact with Orthodox Christians in the Balkans.
There were pagans too, that's one of the reasons why the Inquisition was terrorizing people.
Even in Rome, some people were still secretly worshiping the ancient Roman pantheon for awhile (mostly people related to Witchcraft, who were falsely accused of being "Satanists").
Atheists and agnostic did exist during the renaissance, even earlier, in the ancient Greece.
Oh right, I also forgot to mention Dualist/Gnostic Christians (e. g Catharism) - they were also persecuted by the Catholic church.
In the 1600s the balklands were in the hands of the ottomans and greek revolution was centuries away.
Agnostic Christians were in the east, cathars has all disappeared by the crusades time, Arian Christian had disappeared swallowed by the Catholic Church or by Islam.
I know, I was talking about the time period before the Ottomans.
Still, not all the Balkan lands were under the Turkish rule, they were stopped in Croatia.
Indeed, and who caused the Crusades - Catholic church.
Now, considering you're probably Welsh, I understand why you don't like Protestants, I know what they did to Celtic nations.
Constantinople fell in think in about 1450 and I think a lot of the balklands and greece was in Muslim hands by that stage
Bosnia was conquered in1463, Herzegovina in 1482, Belgrade fell in 1521, Budapest fell in 1541, Bucharest was burned by the Turks in 1595 , before that, solid amount of Balkans were still free.
The church of Henry8 had replaced it.
Church of England or Anglican church. Think the espocopalian church is the same.
Anyone with any sense wants to get as far away possible from the Catholic murderous ish that it is.
@hispanic-cool-guy England at the time was heavily Anglican, the Church started by Henry VII less than 100 years earlier, and Anglican extremists (there were many if them) persecuted anyone who didn't follow the Anglican faith That included Pilgrims, Puritans, Catholics and other religious groups. Unfortunately, the Pilgrims story is not covered in detail in elementary and high school history class, and people often get it all wrong.
The one positive of the Pilgrims fleeing from persecutions is that they established the first long-lasting European settlement in the New World, ultimately leading to the countries of North America that we know today.
@AviatorTom Thanks for the clarification. Tom.
@AviatorTom: The Catholic institution is a p. o. s. and will always be a p. o. s.
Because they are uneducated.
Self righteous Puritans.
Which among some is the case in 2025.
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