First, what you are talking about is not really socialism. Socialism is a romantic reaction to the ideas of the Enlightenment. It says that man is nothing but a product of the forces of economics and class as expressed in the dialectic of History - with a capital "H." In policy terms it is the abolition of private property, a centrally planned economy and government ownership of the means of production.
It is NOT the welfare state. In fact, Marx was staunchly opposed to the welfare state, which he regarded as a bribe by the owning class of the working class to deprive the latter of their class consciousness. (The first welfare states were established by conservatives, in fact, to reconcile the masses to the dynamics of a free market economy. Free market economics being a product of classical liberalism.)
Secondly, Americans tend to distrust socialism because where it has been tried the success rate for socialism has been less than stellar, with an unblemished record of failure since the model first came out. (To which I can add some family members who enjoyed the pleasure of life behind the Iron Curtain back in the day.) This also allowing for the fact that any human institution - being the product of imperfect beings - will be imperfect. It then being not a question of the ideal but rather, on balance, the least harmful.
That all said, defined the way it has been defined here, the American public talks a ferocious game against socialism, but in practice they are far less hostile to it. That public having the following profile. 1 in 6 who works, works for government. 1 in 7 is a Social Security recipient, and best of all, 1/3 of ALL families receive some form of government transfer payment. Moreover, the top 1% of income earners in America pay about 70% of all the Federal income tax - a rate far higher than anywhere in Scandinavia.
The key being that in the American system, 47% of ALL earners pay NO income tax at all. In effect, the American tax system, for all its peculiarities, is far more progressive than in any country in Scandinavia. Thus here the reason why "socialism" - as defined in the Scandinavian model - is unpopular in the United States.
It is not the benefits - which sturdy independent rugged Americans will merrily lap up with nary a thought. It is rather that the Scandinavian model would cost them more in taxes and this they will not countenance. It being a fact that the American public rather enjoys living beyond their means.
The last factor - which is not so much on the minds of Americans but which restrains policymakers - is the aging of the population. This in both the USA and the states of Europe overall, Scandinavia included.
As the population ages, the workforce shrinks. Thus also shrinking the tax base. This at the same time as more people are retiring and collecting benefits and fewer are paying into the system. Thus in the United States, does Social Security have $22 trillion in unfunded liabilities and Medicare $43 trillion in unfunded liabilities. This with an economy currently only $23 trillion in size.
The same aging demographic will also impact the states of Scandinavia in due course, The difference being that as those societies have a higher tolerance for taxation, they will be able to fund their systems for somewhat longer - at least until the rate of taxation begins to crimp economic growth.
Bottom line, Americans don't want "socialism" as it is incorrectly defined here not because they don't like the benefits. Rather because they really hate paying for them and are only willing to foist the costs off on either an unpopular minority - i. e. the evil awful reptilian rich - or on generations yet to be born and who not coincidentally get no vote - i. e. in the form of deficits and debt.
New Zealand is just a pretty looking shithole on this planet. The US is world's super power (has been for a long time) Questions like this usually come from 3rd world no bodies who love to down the US yet live in shitholes!
yes, like i said, very pretty
Thanks for the MHO
I tried to go through the drive-thru at Chick-fila today, but there were about 60 cars in front of me. Me must be doing something right in America.
We...
Which part? Socialism didn't work out for the people of Venezuela.
They hate their government.
Dude... Half the country can't even figure out how to wear a damn face mask properly. What would you expect?
@JustMe62 Hey, thanks for proving my point.
More like half the country thinks facemasks are some mystical charm that keeps the covid cooties at bay no matter what. You literally have people who think that they need to wear their mask while having sex, never mind the people wearing masks inside their car while driving alone.
@Celtero Please feel free to not share your stupidity with me, I’m really not impressed.
Why do Americans say to me, a person form a socialist country, that socialism = no private ownership.
We have private ownership in New Zealand!
If you think that private ownership means that a country is NOT socialist, why are you accusing countries with private ownership of being socialist?
Yeah dude… nobody here said that to you.
Some of them don't even know how to spell the word genius.
@Celtero Put a mask on. Your breath stinks.
@NightHawk99 Put a mask on, you're ugly as sin.
@Celtero At least I'm smart enough not to spread the burden unlike you. :)
@JustMe62 Fauci is a joke, and nothing but a pawn to the government.
@Wise4myage lol, might want to change that user name there kiddo.
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31Opinion
This is BS. Just because we have fire and police, public assistance, libraries and services is not socialism in of itself.
Textbook is who determines the means of production at all tiers. In that sense, government should be in control of all too big to allow citizens and corporations run and control too big industries necessary to manage and operate in an economy. These would be your real big corporations, transportation, and anything that in their opinion will be corrupted by a profit motive.
Now in Marx's time, socialism was the strong government, weak citizen model. Communism was considered a lite version of socialism. It both looks to have a collective and things like rugged individualism is frown on and often against the body politic. The central government, and against all the people to be different. This is where it breaks down into the idea of political and social side of socialism, that idealistic people like to get romantic about socialism, where everyone is cared for, watched out for, maintained for and developed for the enhancement and betterment of the whole than a few, one. This is where pro-socialist like to sell poor people that they can finally have access to economic power and wealth. To balance the divide between the rich and poor.
At somepoint they find out the leaders will deal themselves special powers, and at every turn a tyrannical government either a cult of personality or military people come in, and then protect themselves from being removed from power and control. Then it slowly stops being social program, but a military state that calls itself a socialist government, but their secret police and military keep control and order. That's why you can vote in socialism, but you have to fight a war to get out of. There is no turning back until it collapses after thousands or millions of people die for the cause to keep the illusion that socialism and communism works.
But all these countries like Denmark at socialist? Nope. Market economies that have social programs. That's it. Just like the US.
F Socialism.
https://www.google.com/search?q=socialism&oq=socialism&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l2j69i59j0l2j69i60l2.1560j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
socialism
noun
a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.
Seems like you're the one who knows jack shit about socialism, who would have thunk.
-why don't 'em muricans understand socialism
- america is already socialist
Boiling down socialism to anything that the government does is not only wrong and goes right against the actual definition of socialism, it's also monumentally retarded and the term 'socialism' become completely meaningless.
"Even more socialist than New Zealand in many ways, because there is more public expenditure."
The fucking roads are socialist, huh?
"All the conversations I have about the free markets seem hypothetical, because America doesn't run on free markets."
Yeah, not shit. What the fuck is your point? Cause if by this you mean that America is not as free as it should be, we'd agree. If by this you mean that it should be an ancap or a full on Marxist society, you're insanely wrong.
Ok, so you don't really understand socialism either it seems because these countries aren't socialist. I am going to lay out some definitions here.
Socialism - When the workers own the means of production. Usually this is in the form of workplace democracy.
Socialistic - When something either empowers workers, redistributes wealth, or uses the same logic that one would use to justify socialism.
Americans don't own the means of production. America has socialistic policies that often try to empower workers and use the same (flawed) logic that socialism does in order to try to redistribute wealth. The Nordic countries such as Sweden are socialistic as they have many socialistic policies to the extent that they are no longer considered to be free market capitalism. These Nordic countries are still primarily capitalistic otherwise they'd end up looking like Venezuela. This system that places like Sweden have is often called 'Welfare Capitalism' or 'Responsible Capitalism'. While the more pure form is called 'Laissez-faire Capitalism' or 'Turbo Capitalism'. Don't even get me started on state capitalism like China...
Sorry but that's a very strict definition considering that virtually no one uses it like that. Socialism predates Marx and the term was used by a lot of organizations and movements. Socialism doesn't necessarily mean that the worker owns the means of production in the form of a workplace democracy. It just has to do with the distribution of resources and the belief that everyone is collectively involved in industry and so deserves to have authority over how it's managed and deserves to reep the benefits of it. And that production isn't arbitrarily ruled over by individual private business interests.
Welfare capitalism... or private property socialism?
That's the definition of socialism and anyone who is educated about politics has literally ALWAYS used it in that sense. Literally everyone uses it in that sense unless they're just using it to smear their political opponents or if they're don't know anything about politics. If it just had to do with the distribution you'd be called a distributionist, not a socialist. The fact that people don't know basic political definitions is astounding.
Welfare can exist in a capitalist society. However, if you have economic freedom then almost everyone will choose to have a capitalist business structure. Even governments that take over industry have a state capitalist structure and not a socialist one, such as China. "Private property socialism" in a business sense is like saying "Freedom slavery?" or "Slavery freedom?", it's a complete oxymoron.
Okay. The by your definition
none of the countries you guys accuse of being socialist are socialist at all. And none of the Americans claim are 'socialists', have anything to do with socialism because they don't involve workplace democracies or no private ownership.
Eastern Europe was never socialist, New Zealand, Scandinavia. None of it was ever socialist. So stop deriding our 'socialism' that you don't even believe we ever had.
"none of the countries you guys accuse of being socialist are socialist at all."
Who are 'you guys'? Americans or what? If they're calling every other country socialism, like you make it seem, these guys are probably politically retarded.
"And none of the Americans claim are 'socialists'"
VERY few countries that Americans claim are socialist, are actually socialist. Most of the time as I said previously it is just politically retarded people or they're doing it because it's a buzzword and they want to demonize a country.
"Eastern Europe was never socialist"
I would agree that Eastern Europe has not been anything close to socialist for a very long time. While I know that the USSR had power over them I am not sure of how socialist the actually workings of the countries were.
New Zealand and Scandinavia DEFINITELY aren't socialist at all. If you want to actually be recognized as a socialist country then you need to actually embrace socialism. Otherwise, you are attributing to socialism the success of capitalism. Canada is capitalist. Sweden is capitalist. China is capitalist. Almost every single country is a variation of capitalism, usually more than half of their industry is privately owned with the exception of state capitalist countries. Capitalism absolutely destroyed socialism and communism and took hold just about everywhere. You can claim your snowflake brand of capitalism is "socialist" so that you can feel like a rebel or something, but it's just welfare capitalism.
The meme I use to make fun of Republicans: https://kapwi.ng/c/bpgp5g3O
Let me explain it like this. These are not statistics im just using these numbers to set an example. 89% of the population works and pays taxes. 11% do not. The 11% who do not work through socialist policies give themselves say 20% of the workers income. Suddenly the lower income end of the working class cannot afford to have homes or support families. So 11% becomes 20% the process repeats and the amount increases to 22%. This process continues to repeat until no one is working and producing anything and the economy collapses causing untold chaos and death. This happens every time under socialism no exceptions. It does take time and for awhile socialism will appear to work but its always drifting towards collapse. This system makes everyone equally poor.
Now let's look at capitalism by contrast. Let's say 5% of your population is wealthy and runs business ventures. And 40% are working class and can earn enough for a decent life. 20% are lower working class and can barley afford to support themselves. And 35% and completely impoverished. Now the 5% over time will want to expand thier businesses and move people from the lower working class into the working class and from the impoverished into the lower working class. Also some in the working class will create businesses themselves increasing the wealthy class. And this process is called growth. Now capitalism is by no means perfect and sometimes this process does reverse and we call that a recession. However overtime in general capitalism grows far more than it recedes. Under this system wealth can grow from generation to generation and results in everyone in every class living having increased prosperity. But this system is not equal. You will have winners and you will have losers. But I prefer capitalism because under socialism you only have losers in the end.
Most americans. Don't know the actual meaning of socialism, hell they don't even know it's different to commisum then they don't even know what commisum is. Then they don't even know Marx actual works but yet say marxism a lot.
Then they throw around these words mostly as buzz words. Then to the ones that do understand these terms, they don't throw them around just as Buzz words to call something bad. I would blame it mostly on america cold war making america having to proganda and teach lots of stuff that just makes them see it as all bad without thinking much and the other blame consvertives.
Look how socialism is working for you in New Zealand. It's a fucking disaster. You've ceded all your power to the government and central authority. You're pursuing catastrophically stupid policies such as zero covid, from my understanding.
The right wing gun toting nut jobs on this website have been totally vindicated over the past year.
The USA government has more involvement in people's lives than New Zealand or other so called 'socialist shitholes'! Why do they keep going 'free enterprise'. USA is NOT 'free enterprise'! It has a massive government! New Zealand is more free enterprise than USA! We just got rid of COVID because we are isolated and enacted the travel ban early. And the lockdowns were observed in the remote rural areas where people don't congregate all that much.
Auckland flared up occasionally because there are more people.
If public libraries were invented today they would be attacked as "socialism"
We have had a hundred years of well funded propaganda and a cult of ignorance that refuses to allow educated debates and equates everything left of fascism as akin to communism.
On top of that we have a large number of people who are still angry about the restrictions on capitalism that came from the thirteenth amendment. I believe mist of this is simply an agenda bent on eliminating the "new deal" and the creation of an entrenched oligarchy, aka the new aristocracy.
"If public libraries were invented today they would be attacked as "socialism"
'People are screeching that everything is socialist, that's why I'll also say that everything is socialist too.'
"On top of that we have a large number of people who are still angry about the restrictions on capitalism that came from the thirteenth amendment."
Literally why? Name me a single prominent person who unironically holds that belief and isn't shunned by the rest of the population.
Many Americans do understand socialism. However, there is a large group of ignorant people on the Republican right, who don't even understand that socialism is not communism. So, they start from a place of ignorance, and make their decisions based on ignorance.
What is the population of New Zealand? It makes a difference because smaller nations are much easier to govern than large ones. As for America being socialist, that was not what was intended but has become more and more so due to the over reach of our federal government. All governments collect taxes to pay for things like infrastructure and military that benefit all. If that is what you consider socialism than there has never been a society that isn't socialist.
Unfortunately, you are correct. The U. S. doesn't have free markets because of economic manipulation of the government.
Socialism: political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.
The problem is in how this is implemented. It requires a strong central goverment of the "elite" to make decisions for everyone. A few hundred people controlling the economy for 350 million + people.
For it to work, the people in charge have to be selfless.
"Believe it or not, America is already socialist. All the conversations I have about the free markets seem hypothetical, because America doesn't run on free markets."
This is exactly what I've been saying, and that's a BAD thing. We should be much more capitalist.
The American system is a mix of free market capitalism and socialism. Opponents of socialism here ignorantly equate it to communism……but then socialized programs become popular once they’re enacted here. It’s funny to watch.
Social programs do not equal Socialism.
Giving the federal goverment control over so much of the nations wealth and the power to redistribute wealth ensures inequality and graft. Politicians make policy that panders to thier base and gets them re-elected, whether or not those policies help their constituents in the long run.
As Margret Thatcher said (no hate from the Brits please) The problem with socialism is that you always run out of other people's money.
It’s laughable when they refer to Democrats as communists lol.
From a UK perspective, both parties are to right of centre on most things.
the below gives an example
https://qz.com/1748903/how-2020-us-democratic-candidates-compare-to-global-politicians/
We understand it fully. We just think it's shit. It's Communism Lite. And it's not just Americans, incase you didn't know. And no, America isn't full of baby-Communists (outside of the woke, that is). Socialism is garbage, and so is its older brother counterpart. I'm sick of people trying to spin garbage like this, Communism, and Marxism nowadays.
I'm also going to add in that I am not an economics major. I personally am not a socialism expert. I'm just going off of all the times socialism has been tried, and failed, thus no one in economics or government is for it. Scandinavia is constantly going back and forth whether they consider themselves socialist or not.
You socialist lot need to understand people don't hate socialism because of lack of understanding. Many hate it, because they understand the consequences of such a system.
I've been born into a socialist nation that eventually fell apart. I've educated on a lot of the effects of it during and after. And I never want to have such a system implemented here again. In fact, many of the "social" laws being implemented I am opposed to.
republicans don't
they dont understand that by trump not only letting the virus in to the country, he not only was a complete dumbass, but, that he also, by putting his name on those checks you got from the government, is free money. ITS LITERALLY SOCIALISM/COMMUNISM
The one thing republicans fear the most, is the one they accepted when they most needed it
THATS REPUBLICANS FOR YOU
every country is a little socialistic. but pure socialism doesn't work. we tried that. it failed miserably. pure capitalism however also doesn't work. we also tried that. so every country has to have a mixture of those. cause their pure forms cause problems.
No... no it's not. Socialism is where people cannot have privately owned businesses.
New Zealand is a tiny little country and most US states have a larger population so nobody here gives a shit about what's going on in New Zealand.
Why does this concern you? We are on the brink of a civil war and that will change the country one way or another. Get back to us afterwards and we'll talk
In my opinion, anyone who doesn't like capitalisms should go buy a computer with an American-owned operating system on it and complain. Or perhaps you could go to McDonald's and pat yourself on the back for trying to sound so smart with your socialist friends, because believe me, we don't care about your opinion. We're kind of busy ruling the world over here, thanks.
Maybe your snowflake friends will find you amusing. Bye.
Because “capitalism” and “socialism” are inherently vague concepts that differ in meaning everywhere. It’s far more useful to debate actual defined policy than “capitalism” and “socialism”.
Actually saying that greater fiscal expenditures equates to more intervention in itself is also quite the methodological fallacy
Tell me one thing that New Zealand has developed or discovered. Socialism breeds mediocrity.
Because America has been politically polarized against leftist thought since WW1.
Why would you say Americans don't understand it. I have studied it and find it to be a very poor and inefficient system that robs people of their freedom and it has been proven to be beyond evil and suppresses creativity. I have also live through it and the cold war. Socialism id pure evil.
We understand it very well and have learned from others
New Zealand is considerably small compared to America and it's resources along with other things so yea it may work for you but not for everyone.
Guess the Venezuelans don't understand it, either. Because they're in abject misery, not utopia.
There are lots of examples of socialism outside of Venezuela. I know about disastrous dictatorships with communist rulers, my cousin lived in one. He lived in Romania and he escaped to live in NZ.
Guess what. Ghana is capitalist. South Africa. Nigeria, India, Mexico, Uganda, Rwanda, Somalia. All capitalist. They have horrendous economic problems and people are living in misery as well. It's not that simple. There needs to be proper management of a nation.
It's mostly the right wing dipshits who really don't even know what socialism is, but who've had socialism fear mongered to them by faux news and other fascist propaganda.
@jerdanro I'll assume you're a right-wing wacko, so you give your definition.
Socialism: political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.
The problem is in how this is implemented. It requires a strong central goverment of the "elite" to make decisions for everyone. A few… [+]
You don't have the Koch Brothers in New Zealand either.
Americans don't believe in cooperation. They believe in warfare.
Socialism is basically the root for the growth of communism
It has something to do with 'Pavlov's Dogs'.
we do understand , you don't understand America
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