Vaccinated Vs Unvaccinated, why are these terms too limiting and potentially dangerous in an age of tribalism/political divisiveness?

[Anonymous]

Joe Rogan talks w/ evolutionary biologists Heather Heying & Bret Weinstein about many topics, including the labels “vaccinated” & “unvaccinated” in a time of extreme political divisiveness and tribalism.

The labels serve to divide and alienate individuals from one another and further increase the powder keg of explosiveness amongst people in this time

There are MANY reasons for those who do not want to get vaccinated

•Natural immunity
•medical issues

Etc.

I’m vaccinated, yet I don’t think of those unvaccinated as any less human being of some sort.

The “mightier than thou” from some vaccinated folks, as Joe Rogan says it, serves tribalism ultimately.

Us versus them

Clan vs clan

Bret and Heather talk about how history has shown us that this time of thinking has caused many catastrophes and that we are heading there now.

One side thinks awful stuff of another and that can lead to thinking that side is not deserving of human or civil rights if situations get extreme enough which they are approaching

Updates

1 y

People don’t want to be wrong.

Even when they’re found to be wrong, people double down

They think it’s more important to save face than to admit they’re wrong.

TRIBALISM.

I’m open to all new ideas and I don’t feel so passionately about anything as to never have my my moldable.

People should do the same.

Updates

1 y

A lot of sheltered and weak people out there that are further enabled by other sheltered and weak people so that they only hear their only voices and thoughts.

It’s toxic and they know it.

These people aren’t healthy and they don’t talk to others in a particularly healthy way.

It’s not sustainable and will lead to awful things as history has taught us.

[ShadezMcgee]

Because it is a combination of misinformation and lack of decency between individuals.

As much as the Branch Covidians and their cult-like behavior pisses me off by being condescending to those who do not want the vaccine and made that their individual choice, as well as coming off as superior and holier than thow, I respect their choice to get vaccinated for a reasonable fear and the science/logic behind it.

Cool, get the shot, I don't give a fuck. But don't tell me that I am a terrible person just because I made a decision you did not agree with. You should be able to to choose what happens to your body on an individual level, not the fucking government. As much as I hate abortion, I will not fault those that choose to get it. Their decision, but I will not be cool with their decision on a personal level. I was taught peer pressure wasn't a good thing, so why enable it here and now?

What concerns me is the level they are pushing this hard for this to be a thing. I have never seen this happen in my lifetime to this degree and that is disconcerting. If they can mandate us what we have to do to our bodies if we sacrifice that liberty and choice, what else will they go for next? This is a catalyst to sitatutions down the line that people will be on board for because we are giving these assholes more control of our individualism than they need. This only spreads division and adds fuel to the growing fire on both sides.

Simple decency and disagreement is gone. If you don't choose a side, you alienate and make yourself a a target to the other side. We need to get away from that and tell the ones responsible for this to fuck off. Media and government control over our country is a cancer that is spreading more and more.

[goaded]

Simple decency is that you should do everything you can not to pass on a deadly disease.

[ShadezMcgee]

@goaded incorrect. Decency does not apply to conforming to one specific thing. That is coercion and manipulation. Decency means that despite differences or consequences if certain individuals do not agree with them or like them, they respect the decision at the end of the day even if they personally don't agree with it.

The disease will not be contained. I look at it like a bio weapon in this instance. There is a reason bio weapons are never deployed in combat, because once they are in the wild they cannot be contained. It spreads and mutates way too quick. It is not strictly affecting humans. It affects things like plants, every day household items and animals as well. Even if we were all vaccinated, new strains would pop up regardless of the shot which is why we now got boosters coming out.

[goaded]

I disagree. In this instance, disagreement involves putting someone else's heath at risk, like driving down the wrong side of the road.

With the exception of animals, particularly cats, I think "It affects things like plants, every day household items and animals as well." is incorrect.

[Levin]

@goaded The idea that you pass on 'a deadly disease' in such a clear cut manner, or at least how it's portrayed, is simply a fallacy. A dangerous one at that, since you're propagating such preposterous myths that are having real (discriminatory) impacts on policy. The stupidity of treating and discriminating against healthy people who actually bother to look after their immune systems, rather than fat lard arses who are 'healthy' because they have taken the shot, as disease spreaders who need to be segregated away from society. When will sanity prevail again?

I'm an unvaxxed unclean rat who should be exterminated, as I'm normally referred to on here, and recently someone in my household got covid, or at least, some of the symptoms and a positive pcr test. Two people including myself were fully exposed to him. But none of us caught it. Nor passed it on.

Such a linear notion of infection simply is not true. It's the age old Bernard versus pasteur tension between the terrain and the pathogen. Plus for some reason beyond me, it is always been clear that people get sick because the body is simply trying to maintain dynamic homeostasis, ie it's part of the healing process, paradoxically. Most peoples' bodies are likely trying to shed mucuous and toxins, probably in part due to imbalanced diets based on dairy, meat, refined grains and sugars (which is the mainstay of the average 'healthy' person's diet).

[Levin]

What we're living in is not the age of science, but the age of a scientific shambles.

You don't know what you're passing on or what you have done to your body since what you have injected, if any of us could be honest with ourselves, is nothing more than an unknown quantity. I think it is perfectly sensible to trust a system that is unfathomably complex and nuanced, which has kept us safe throughout our evolutionary system, rather than one based on the emotions of a bunch of men in white coats, who evidently care more about paying off their expensive housed mortgages and keeping their cushy pension, than keeping us safe.

[Levin]

Also, forgive the errors, which I can't be arsed to correct. Delirious and working on fumes!

[Levin]

Plus, we might like to look at the stellar job that the powers-that-be have done on eradicating the flu, cancer, heart disease and the myriad other horrific and ever prevalent diseases. What is it now, 1 in 2 people who get cancer? Incidentally, all these diseases are probably better described as nature's and the body's way of trying to again, maintain dynamic homeostasis.

Covid should be thought of as akin to the flu. Just because you're around people who get the flu, or a cold, doesn't mean you will get a cold. It depends on the strength of that person's immune system, their health, whether they have a congested and mucuous laden body, yada yada.

I made my point.

[goaded]

@Levin Nice theory, shame it's almost completely wrong. Does being fit and eating healthily help you stay well? Probably, a bit. But the vaccines halve (or better) the chances of you catching it, and make it 20x less likely that you get seriously sick or die, even with the Delta variant.

Countries and states that have good vaccine coverage and mask wearing have very low levels of deaths, those that haven't and don't have much higher levels.

Mississippi, Texas and Florida: 14, 10, and 14 deaths per million population per day
UK, Israel, New York and California: 2.2, 2.3, 1.8 and 3.3.

The only country on the east side of the Atlantic with terrible vaccination numbers is Russia, but they're clearly lying about their death figures; there's no way the numbers dying a day have stayed between 790 and 809 for six weeks.

[RolandCuthbert]

I don't know what to say to your post. You talk about having compassion for those who are unvaccinated?

What about compassion for those who are dying or dead? What about compassion for their families and friends? What about compassion for essential workers? For folks who have risk factors, but still have to do their jobs?

And this is coming from a person who has been decidedly dispassionate to other entire groups of people. I don't understand.

Anyway, about this debate. This is not about vaccinated vs un-vaccinated. This is not a political debate. This is not about dems vs repubs or libs vs fake conservatives.

This is about science vs mythology, fact vs voo-doo.

If anyone has a question about the vaccine, stop debating this on the net. Go see your doctor, just like you would if you had questions about cancer, a cold, headache or muscle spasm. You go see an expert on the matter. And if you don't like that answer, you seek a second opinion.

For this to be debated in public among folks who are not scientists or doctors is beyond insane. We have never had this in our nation before. But because this became political, we are now enduring this insanity.

[Asker]

The point is to have compassion for all.

Be reasonable

People are not doing so because of tribalism and that is going to lead us astray.

Many reasonable liberals & conservatives have banded together to oust the more unreasonable or unruly of the bunch. I also believe the majority is more reasonable than what mainstream media might suggest.

As history has shown, you don’t need a lot of people to tear down whole infrastructures……

A few bad people can cause mayhem for the majority

[goaded]

[RolandCuthbert]

Why is a person who only has compassion for some lecturing anyone about compassion for all? I mean, I don't even do that. I figure it you don't care about me, my group identity, etc. that's your right. I can't do that in return. I can do this and will do it on an individual basis. Which I do and do often. As you can remember, I never posted one single thread criticizing Asians or even Filipinos. Because that in my belief system is pure bullshit. But if other folks engage in it. . we live in a free country. And I am free to disagree with it.

Again your post has nothing to do with fact. Right? You are talking about your politics. You and yours made this political. You don't have to discuss vaccinations here at all. You can go to see your doctor. The same one that gives you advice on everything else. And you can ask him/her what their recommendation is.

But you didn't do that.

You made this about your delusion. Your delusion is that there is a debate when none exists. The vast majority in the medical profession believe in vaccination. Period.

www.ama-assn.org/.../ama-survey-shows-over-96-doctors-fully-vaccinated-against-covid-19

[Asker]

I never said anything negative about vaccination

I believe in them

I’m vaccinated

I think people ought to get vaccinated.

I don’t know what you’re saying because it’s all made up as I’ve never said or suggested what you’re implying.

All I’m saying is that we should have a reasonable discussion and not segregate people based on two labels

It’s what got us this two party system that has been causing all sorts of issues

We ought to not follow labels so strictly because they are narrow and can allow people to become tribal and harmful towards one another

[RolandCuthbert]

So if you believe in vaccination, what are you here representing? I don't care about labels either. But you need stop relating this to politics. This is not about liberals and conservatives. Because there is no such thing as political medicine.

Medical truths are reached based upon science and fact.

You made the claim about reasons for not wanting to get vaccinated. I don't care that folks choose not to get vaccinated. That is their right. But they do not have the right to fly on an airplane, work for any employer, gain access to a restaurant or movie theater.

Broadway in New York reopened. And they have the right to demand all attendees be vaccinated.

My point is spreading disinformation online is wrong. People are dying because they think they have some medical issue they never asked a doctor about. Nikki Minaj made the claim that the vaccine made her relative impotent. A claim never substantiated by a medical professional.

That is simply wrong. The discussion has to be about objective fact. Not about your obsession with your weird narrow extremist views.

You made the claim of natural immunity and medical issues. These two claims I am willing to bet that you never asked a medical professional about. Because they will tell you natural immunity is mythology. And that pre-existing medical factors are best left for medical professionals to decide.

[Asker]

Medical professionals and scientists have talked about natural immunity and a variety of health concerns that might dissuade or prevent someone from getting the vaccine.

This has always been about politics. It’s not what I made it but what other people have labeled this whole situation about vaccinated versus unvaccinated.

I’m saying, we SHOULD take OUT politics from this and listen to the actual experts who are recommending vaccines, vitamin D, going outside and socializing, eating right, etc.

We’re not really hearing a lot of that, rather, what we have seen is a lot of “get the vaccine and everting will be okay. Also, stay indoors and keep wearing your mask because… just because the vaccine isn’t 100%.”

They say this without giving easy to give recommendations that doctors and scientists have given.

Australia for example is still rather closed down.

Beaches and outdoor places were for the longest time.

This virus is spread INDOORS.

No vitamin D recommendation

Closed down outdoor places that can be perfectly safe but also paramour for socialization of children and everyone else

You can see the public health officials aren’t all experts in this field because so many other experts are giving extra or opposing advice.

My take?

Let people go outside more
Recommend that

People need to take vitamin D/expose themselves to the sun
Recommend that because the virus is weak against the sun

Workout, eat right, etc.

This alone can significantly curb the virus.

The vaccine will work better if one is fit and healthy.

I’ve seen many unhealthy people get the vaccine, only to still get the virus because it’s obviously not 100%.

[RolandCuthbert]

No vaccinations were never political until the trump movement started. There was an anti-vax crowd that blamed autism, cancer, homosexuaity etc. . . all on vaccinations. They were considered to be outcasts and lunatics. Trump and his brood made this political and now we discuss things that are not scientific, factual, objective or common sense when it comes to vaccines. This is not only irrational, it is dangerous and we have seen the deadly results.

How can you be recommending listening to experts? I posted objective fact about the percentage of medical doctors who believe in vaccinations. For a person who has cited statistics to confirm his beliefs. . . you have a problem accepting that the overwhelming majority of doctors believe in this vaccine.

Again. . . what you post is nonsensical. "What I have been hearing". . . which means you getting all of your information from commercials, newscasts, youtube, and internet sites. When did you talk to a medical professional or scientist? We have one in our group, you can ask her. She even has a podcast where she answers questions. I could give you the link. Because obviously you are unable or unwilling to talk to the actual doctors who provide care for patients or scientists who have studied this virus and understand the process by which the vaccine was developed.

You keep talking about public health experts, which means you want to believe in your fiction about the virus. This after stating the lie that you believe in the vaccine. And you are making excuses to not bring your theories to an actual doctor or scientist.

[Brainsbeforebeauty]

First just want to clear up-
not everyone that don't want the vaccine refuses to wear masks or doesn't take Corona Virus serious or is a conspiracy theorist... Some just feel there's not enough actual data/proof about the safety and effectiveness of the vaccine..Second, I find it ironic the same people that are saying that unvaccinated people are putting others at risk, but how many of those saying that speed to work, drink and drive, etc... Cuz that also puts people at risk, yet happens EVERY day and noone worries enough about that.. Truth be told, I'm more worried bout getting killed on the freeway than I am from dying from Corona Virus, whether someone vaccinated or not

[19magic]

I didn't really want to get the vaccine cus my immune system is pretty great and I didn't want to compromise that but when I thought about it I've had plenty of jabs in the past so what's different now.

What I don't like unvaccinated people is that when you prove all of their theories wrong they still don't believe it and say stuff like well who checks the fact checkers and it's like this is a collaboration of 150 people that all gets checked by serveral and possibly dozens of people. Yet the thing your citing is a single individuals opinion 🤦🏼‍♀️🤷‍♀️

[OlderAndWiser]

The political culture today is divide and conquer.

[goaded]

Who's dividing the 60%+ who want masks and vaccines from the others, exactly?

[OlderAndWiser]

@goaded Can you say ANYTHING without pointing fingers and contributing to the divisiveness?

PS This is NOT a good day to fuck with me.

[Asker]

@OlderAndWiser

He’s emboldened by being online.

Everything is the Republicans’ fault or anyone who is of the right apparently.

The sun can set incorrectly and it would be the Republicans’ fault.

He’s so jaded by his perception of the right that you can see him as a clear example of what I’m talking about

Perpetuation of tribalism, historically, leading to catastrophe.

Definitely not OLDER and WISER despite being his age

[Asker]

It’s very clear to see through these types of people.

@OlderAndWiser and I can

The majority of the common sense public can as well, which is hopeful for the future.

[Not_Average]

I think I’m going to get the vaccine soon after I get my blood panels back. I’m a numbers guy and ran a lot of data on excel and came to the conclusion that it can help stop the virus from mutating, rather than so much protecting me. I’m all for doing something that benefits the community. Just don’t force it. There are a lot of wild conspiracy theories out there. I blame the media for the division and tribalism.

[goaded]

Funny, I blame the Republicans.

[Not_Average]

@goaded You’ve become way too tribal and binary to be honest. There a ton of other variables that go into that, and that’s off of a 7 day basis. The Republican thesis isn’t 100% effective in every obstacle our country faces, nor the democratic thesis. Every single one of your posts is republicans this and democrats that. I rather think on my own rather than to cheerlead for any particular team.

[goaded]

I really don't think I am being unreasonable. Its true that the graph is a 7 day average, but it's a recent seven days, in a post vaccine world.

There's a massive partisan difference in how the pandemic is being handled, and there shouldn't be, should there? It's a recent and worrying change. The Republican party is not what it was even a couple of decades ago (although it was clearly heading in this direction).

In 2005, George Bush put into place a $7.1 billion plan to get America ready for a possible pandemic. www.businessinsider.com/george-bush-said-prepare-for-a-pandemic-that-trump-ignored-2020-5 I didn't like the guy, but at least he accepted science and reality.

Republican leadership isn't fighting back against the anti-public-health propaganda, let alone coming together with Democratic leadership to push vaccinations. When Trump half-heartedly tried recently he was booed, remember? He won't make that mistake again. (Some Republican governors have tried protecting their public, how are they doing politically?)

Here's the result of an NBC poll, American adults vaccinated:
Democrats: 88 percent
Independents: 60 percent
Republicans: 55 percent
Republicans who support Trump more than party: 46 percent <<< This is the problem
Republicans who support party more than Trump: 62 percent
Biden voters in 2020 general election: 91 percent
Trump voters in 2020 general election: 50 percent <<< And this
www.nbcnews.com/.../nbc-news-poll-shows-demographic-breakdown-vaccinated-u-s-n1277514

Which states are currently having problems with lack of ICU beds? Idaho? Kansas? Mississippi? Mississippi just overtook New Jersey as the state with the highest number of deaths per million, more than half of them this year, since the vaccines became available; nearly half of New Jersey's were before June 2020.

Most recent deaths were easily preventable. Where and why weren't they prevented?

[Stoner710]

Because anti vaxxer use to mean not in favor of getting vaccine across the board.
pro vaxxer use to mean you are for getting vaccine

now it means if you don’t want to force people to get the vaccine even if you’ve gotten the vaccine your self you are now and anti vaxxer which is stupid do we have individual choice or are we living under an authoritarian dictatorship who can force us to get vaccinated. Right now it seems to be the latter

[normalice]

People are generally fine with those who are not vaccinated for legitimate medical reasons. But he vast majority of the unvaccinated are refusing simply because trump lost and they want democrats to fail like trump failed. If magical thinking didn't work then they don't want cooperative social responsibility to work, either.

[Asker]

I don’t think so man.

I think there are some like yourself who think everything opposed to your side has to do with Trump this and Trump that.

Extremely unhealthy way of thinking and talking and I think you need to fix yourself champ.

I could be on the right and just because I decide to get a pumpkin spice latte and you, a liberal, decide to get a vanilla latte, will think I got pumpkin spice because it matches the textures of Trump’s hair and I got it to spite you the liberal

[Asker]

See how ridiculous that sounds?

That’s the way you think, summed up in a clever original response of yours truly

[normalice]

Sorry but i dont think that way. If it didn't make sense to get a pumpkin spice latte for some reason then I would look for a motive beyond the taste and if the only explanation was political, only then would I conclude that.

With the vaccine, I'm in the middle of Deep Red Iowa. I simply know too many people who have flatly told me they aren't going to get the vaccine because they want Biden to fail and there's nothing I can do about it. Plus they believe because we are sparsely populated out here the risk is small. And they aren't wrong about that but our neighboring hospitals are filling up. We are teetering on a house of cards, here, and I'm running out of sympathy for the unvaccinated who are packed into ICU just because they wanted to own the libs.

[Levin]

This has to be the collective recognition to move forward.

I've been thinking about this a lot.

Personally, I'm very angry to have these things imposed on me. There's been a tyranny of the many. Individual rights have been thrown in the bin. The anger is frequent, simmering and can bubble over at any moment. I wish there was an easy way past this. The people who have been bullied, discriminated against and coerced can't just get over this.

[goaded]

"There are MANY reasons for those who do not want to get vaccinated "
You listed two. One is reasonable, the other is unknowable (and would deal with the vaccine quicker than the virus).

Rogan essentially said he took an asprin and some horse shit for a headache, and that the horseshit cured him. It didn't.

[Asker]

@goaded

He said more than what you’re simplistically interpreting

[Andres77]

I don't mind what anyone else does... just don't make me do anything that I don't feel safe with.
There are no guarantees that it is safe. Assumptions.
Some people who have received are fine, others were fine until they got it and now they're dead.
I'm not going to get it.

[OddBeMe]

Yes and that’s the point. What if doctors didn’t distinguish between lepers and “non lepers” because they were afraid of being PC.

That’s the issue with Rogen. He and his “experts” like blaming others for being tribal like they’re above it all.

[Asker]

No idea what lepers or “non lepers” are.

Anyways, it’s not a good thing that these labels serve to be so divisive and tribal in today’s society. This is just proof that people today will segregate themselves in either one side or the other on ANY issue.

It’s a recipe for disaster and we should avoid it.

We should all be reasonable.

It’s not reasonable to treat unvaccinated people as less than human which many are.

I don’t think the majority are, but many are indeed still backwards in their thinking and need to fix themselves because it’s toxic now and in the future to come.

[OddBeMe]

You don’t know what leprosy is? Do an image search and you’ll be glad for doctors not being PC about tribalism there.

[Asker]

Oh, I've heard of what that is.

I just didn’t know it by that word

Look, I understand you may feel angry towards people who aren’t vaccinated, but that anger becomes unreasonable when you start viewing these people as less than you in someway.

Oh, saying stuff like “maybe we shouldn’t just let them die off, that’ll be better for everyone”

I know you haven’t said that but some have

It’s a similar line of thinking that I’m trying to discourage in everyone.

Again, I’m vaccinated and want people who can get vaccinated to do so.

Some have natural immunity, millions do probably

How many people caught COVID and didn’t even know it? Giving them natural immunity?

Id say MILLIONS.

[Asker]

You and I probably have natural immunity from catching COVID at some point but not noticing the symptoms or effects.

I’m relatively young, very fit, eat well, etc.

I could’ve had it but not even noticed

[OddBeMe]

(Sigh) and because we can’t possibly notice is why everyone should get vaxxed. You could be passing Covid to your grandparents and not know it.

[Asker]

@OddBeMe

Well, many HAVE gotten it and have survived. Nearly everyone that gets COVID, has survived and if you have survived then you have natural immunity.

I’m saying, no matter how large that number is, the people who haven’t noticed they have gotten when they had and subsequently have natural immunity now is much greater.

Also, keep in mind this vaccine requires boosters and you still need to wear your mask because it’s not entire protection vaccine.

If you don’t workout, eat right, etc.

You stand a good chance of getting COVID despite getting the vaccine.

[Asker]

My whole point is, treat people alright, vaccine or unvaccinated.

You’re only doing yourself a disservice and others in the long run if you keep up with this division.

There are vaccinated people who are labeled “anti-vax” because they believe people shouldn’t be forced to get the vaccine.

When you have liberals & conservatives agreeing on this issue, then you may feel some hope for the future.

But there are still stragglers that continue to just hate each other and debase each other.

[joeldalton]

I just finished that podcast. It was an excellent episode... but anything with Bret and Heather is.

[Asker]

Fuck yeah man.

Those are amazing folks

[KrakenAttackin]

I'm with you. I am vaxed but I don't think it should be forced on anyone.