Why is Russia beefing with Ukraine trying to start a war with those people, what's in it for them?

[Hispanic-Cool-Guy]

https://news.yahoo.com/russias-military-buildup-has-ukraine-and-nato-on-edge-100031445.html

[Xtcy2083]

I'll tell you what their "beef" is - NATO expansionism and encirclement. Look at this from Russia's perspective, just this one time if you don't mind.
Ever since 1989, NATO has been pushing (hard) against Russia's borders. First East Germany fell, then the other Warsaw Pact nations like Poland and Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia disintegrated into a civil war, and the other states of the USSR fell away. The Baltic States of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania were originally a part of the USSR, and now they belong to NATO.
There are American bases in Central Asia, the "Stans", which also used to belong the the USSR. During World War 2, the USSR lost approx. 27 million citizens to the Nazis. Can you blame them for being on edge, for being so defensive? How would you like it if Mexico and Canada joined a hostile alliance that threatened the existence of the United States?
Anyway, if there is going to be an invasion of the Ukraine (unlikely, but possible) it will be timed to coincide with a Chinese invasion of Taiwan.
By the way, yes, I know a lot about history, geography, politics, and heaps of other cool stuff :) Just in case anyone was curious.

[lightbulb27]

maybe they should realize their method of society doesn't work so great?

[007kingifrit]

geopolitics is actually my specialty. some history first.

* russia has been invaded on average once every 70 years the concept of trust does not exist to a russian
* russia is normally invaded through the "volgagrad gap" which is a very long flat piece of land that is easy to invade and can easily cut the country in half if you get to the volga river. hitler, manstein, and napoleon all took this path
* the russian territory is large and flat making it impossible to build any defensive lines
* russia is at its smallest size in centuries

so what is motivating the russians right now? demographics and birth rates. the red army will be half its manpower size in 2022 that it was in 2015 due to low birth rate and many old people. They don't have the numbers to fight a ww2 style war anymore.

The plan of the russians is to expand to the 5 "stop gaps" of Europe; these 5 barriers are rivers, mountain ranges, and narrow passages that can be easily defended with a smaller army.

the russians know the EU will fall apart in the next 10 years and war is coming. they are getting ready with these smaller invasions to give themselves more defensive grounds that they historically had.

[Soteris]

I can't say your analysis fills me with confidence. I mean to start with, being invaded every 70 years is pretty rarely all things considered. Europe by example was pretty much a dramatic reenactment of the thunderdome with enemies coming at you from left, right and center. There are plenty of generations of people who literally grew up not knowing what peace was.

The only thing I agree with you is that Russia is historically weak right now compared to its neighbors (not to do with birth rates) and that Russia lacks natural barriers which has been a constant worry for the nation as it makes much of it literally indefensible.

[007kingifrit]

@Soteris 70 years only seems like a long time to a mortal man

[Soteris]

When it comes to armed conflicts it IS a long time during historical times in Europe. Lets take France as an example then there are 14 different armed conflicts they where involved in between WW1 and WW2 and that is only a 21 year time-frame. Even if we limit ourselves to major conflicts you still have several of them within a single lifetime.

[007kingifrit]

@Soteris yes and that long peace as it is called was built on the bretton woods system... a system that is over now

[Soteris]

No, that happened before the bretton woods system and the reason Europe is currently not fighting WW3 is because the EU made it virtually impossible for a European country to attack another European country. Essentially we stopped endless war by creating the worlds most complicated network of trade that is so difficult to untangle that wars are a thing of the past.

[t-8900]

historically speaking the Ukraine has been the bread basket of that region and holds a lot more fertile farmlands. When The USSR feel apart and the Russians lost Ukraine many starved. On top of this it's rich in a lot of natural resources. What made the Russian Empire have so much potential was honestly the Ukraine, Crimea, and Alaska. In order to regain former glory they need the Ukraine since Alaska is completely off the table, obviously. Most of Russia has land which is infertile, lands impossible to tame, swamps, etc. great places for testing military weapons, sure. Not so great for economic development and growth however.

[laurcar34]

I'm no expert on this, but I think it's something like this: Putin and his oligarch cronies are interested in access to Ukrainian pipelines. Russia is a primary provider of natural gas to Europe, and much of Europe relies on Russian gas to heat their homes and other things. The more pipelines and gas he controls, the more he can hold the European free democratic republics in his thrall. Putin also believes in, or at least exploits, Russian nationalist feelings. And those include the belief that Ukrainians, especially the Russian-speaking ones, are fundamentally Russian; and Putin dreams of a reconstituted Soviet Union as a massively powerful, autocratic alternative to Western liberal republicanism. In short, a need to control energy and thus have power over Europe, combined with nationalistic sentiments and/or propaganda.

[collie22]

interesting read thanks for the info

[ChrisMaster69]

It’s a really critical strategic country for Russia. Not only does Putin want Greater Russia back, it goes access to Romania etc, larger front with Poland. Russia can then park division of troops, tanks aircraft etc on the Polish border.

It also puts pressure on Baltic countries as well, they are next. the big worry is Belarus, very much a loose canon

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/60e726bdd3bf7f5688e5d8da/FCDO__TA__044_-_Ukraine_Travel_Advice_Ed3.pdf

[Xtcy2083]

Why would Putin "park divisions of troops" near the Polish border? To prepare for an invasion of Poland? Poland is in NATO. Vladimir Putin may not be a very pleasant person, but he isn't the next Adolf Hitler, and he isn't stupid either.

[ChrisMaster69]

@Xtcy2083 yes but NATO then needs to do same thing.

This will then allow for political parties in all countries to argue about defence spending etc.

It’s a good move politically , he bases them at zero costs and causes political unrest in EU, NATO

[ChrisMaster69]

Hmm as the clock keeps ticking.

foreignpolicy.com/.../

www.scmp.com/.../amid-ukraine-crisis-russia-says-it-may-be-forced

www.airforcetimes.com/.../

liveuamap.com/.../10-december-in-a-new-provocation-russia-has-issued-warning

[ohshee]

Oh come on we all know Putin's fucking little boy bully he thinks by going in and taking things from people that he's considered a superstar China WhatsApp trying to take over the world so Putin's going to have to have his day all we need now is Pinky and the Brain or Rocky and Bullwinkle

[ibodi]

Some of ukrainian want to go back to russia. They had deep connection going through many but I think they just remember what stalin do but forgot nazi
https://kknews.cc/zh-tw/world/yayanxb.html
I found it when poles say china something those countries seem that move their hate to China. China was not USSR.
I am lazy to explain and I really dont know what is going on with their thought.

[Anonymous]

It's the opposite actually.

The US government is inciting Ukraine to take the separatist areas by force, which will trigger a war with Russia since Russia won't let the Ukrainian army freely kill the Ukrainian citizens of Russian origins in the Eastern part of Ukraine.

Russia isn't "trying to start" any war. It's the US government that does because they know that chaos in Eastern Europe would be very costly to the Russian economy and potentially weaken the Russian-Chinese alliance.

Stop watching corporate media for a fucking minute. The US government is a global mafia that's behind every world's disgrace since 1945.

[Sargentcaptain]

Crimea, oil, wheat, steel, strategic land position, more permanent naval bases, more work force and other resources. Given that Russia already has ample access to the Arctic Ocean, Pacific Ocean, Baltic Sea and Caspian Sea, adding Black Sea to the list would make them insanely powerful.

[Xtcy2083]

They already have access to the Black Sea, and please do explain how it would make them "insanely powerful" if they had the Ukraine.
People here keep mentioning oil, but that's just it - Russia has a lot of oil already, more than Saudi Arabia. They don't need it.

[Sargentcaptain]

No one in their right mind would ever turn down even more land or resources, and having a significant part of several world seas and oceans and getting even more land in Europe is a pretty big deal.

[AviatorTom]

For a long time, Ukraine was part of the USSR, which is Russia's glory days in the 20th Century. Russia would like to get that glory back.

Also, Ukraine is a buffer between communist Russia and capitalist Europe, and Ukraine is moving its ties closer to Europe, which is viewed by Russia (Putin in particular) as a defensive risk.

[Soteris]

Ukraine is of critical strategic importance to Russia. They could allow them to coexist as long as they aligned with Russia but since Ukraine has been moving towards the side of the EU it has triggered Russia to move against them before its too late.

[Lliam]

It cracks me up how, when a country beefs up its defenses in reaction to U. S. military aggression, the U. S. claims that that country is acting aggressively.

Bottom line, it's the Nazi Ukrainian government, back by the U. S. and NATO, that are openly threatening Russia.

[888theGreat]

1) Ukraine was also Soviet Union
2) Many Russians live in Ukraine
3) Many Russians in Ukraine asked for his help
4) US (Obama ) interfered in Ukraine;s elections and overthrew their elected President which had deals with Russia.
5) It would be like China coming to Mexico and replacing Mexican President that had deals with US and replacing him with a pro China Mexican. Now how would US respond to that?

[lightbulb27]

they've always tried to grab for more power since their ussr fell apart. why now? UM... because our government is not strong?

[Soleil7001]

Ukrainians are basically incompetent arrogant criminal scum - the guts who caused the Chernobyl nuclear disaster.
No one wants people like that, armed and still running nuclear power plants, 600km from their capital (distance from Ukraine to Moscow).

[007kingifrit]

what are you a russian puppet? the soviets caused the chernobyl disaster

[Soleil7001]

@007kingifrit that's BS. They only caused it by running the experiment of 'how dumb can the nuclear power operstors be before thry mess up' - the 'how low (in IQ) can we go for this thing to jeep working'. IQ being the amount of brain exercise you do (and, no - poison gives you a stroke, not the usage of your brain)

Have you been to Ukraine?

[007kingifrit]

the soviets built the reactor. and built it poorly, and had an inefficient communist system running it that allowed such corruption and mistakes

its 100% russia's fault. you must be a secret russian to deny this

[Soleil7001]

@007kingifrit nope. The local prostitutes over there wanted Balenciaga coats and Gucci bags from their tiny brain pimps.
I grew up in Yugoslavia, was looking at them every summer in Montenegro. We were even friends, but I was young and they wanted fame, glory and money - without anyone bothering to think and grow a big brain.

[Soleil7001]

@007kingifrit besides, Ukraine left he Hindu Saudi opium kingdom of the 'non aligned' countries, like Yugoslavia
It seems Hindu opium and transgenderisation machine does not like letting European counties go without causing them wars.

[007kingifrit]

well your response has NOTHING to do with what we are talking about. your personal feelings don't matter

[Stoner710]

There trying to regain the territory they had during the days of the Soviet Union

[WhiteBoyChill]

Its because Biden is such a weak puppet its the opportune time. There was none of this Russian aggression BS during Trump

[Xtcy2083]

Russian aggression? It isn't Russia that's constantly invading other countries, but the USA. Biden may be a complete clown, but Trump was just as bad, if not worse.

[007kingifrit]

@Xtcy2083 uuuuh actually its russia that actually does land grabs. america has never seized and kept anyone's territory. all america does is go on. establish order, leave.

[Xtcy2083]

@007kingifrit Try telling that to the natives of Hawaii. Didn't the US grab the Philippines, Puerto Rico and Cuba from Spain?

[007kingifrit]

@Xtcy2083 that's 100s of years ago. its been 5 years since russia invaded a country and kept the land

the past 75 years has been nothing but america invading other places for their own good and bringing global peace and stability. that's what matters

you're not an American are you? why do you lie on your profile?

[Xtcy2083]

@007kingifrit Oh, I see. The passage of time (like a hundred years) makes it okay. Gotcha.

[007kingifrit]

@Xtcy2083 of course it does. present wrongdoing is always worse than past wrongdoing

[JohnK123]

They want more land strategic land and limit the ally powers reaching east

[jahaims]

You don't know the history of this region very well do you?

[Hispanic-Cool-Guy]

Nope.

[CaptainSmartass]

It's so Putin can have another dick measuring contest.

Simples...

[DaveToo]

Oil, oil, and more oil.

[Xtcy2083]

Wrong, wrong, and wrong again. Russia doesn't need any more oil, because it already has much more than what it knows what to do with. You must have been thinking of the USA, because they're the ones who are always invading other countries in order to steal their resources. Russia doesn't do that, it never has.

[DaveToo]

@Xtcy2083 Yeah, okay.

[OddBeMe]

Same reason Hitler wanted Ukraine. Oil.

[Xtcy2083]

That was the Caucasus dummy, which is in RUSSIA! You know, that area just south of Stalingrad/Volgograd, where they had that big battle that turned the tide during World War 2 (that's right, it wasn't the Normandy invasion).
Sheesh! You Liberals!

[OddBeMe]

@Xtcy2083 wow you should really read a book.

[Xtcy2083]

I probably read more books in one year than you have in your entire life. The oil fields that Hitler was after lie near the Caucasus mountain range, which back then was in the USSR, far away from the Ukraine. The Ukraine he wanted for it's wheat-fields, for the food to supply the Wehrmacht and the millions who would live in his Thousand Year Reich.
You see, unlike you, I actually know what I'm talking about here, having studied (among other things, and because I'm actually interested in just about everything under and above the sun) geography, astronomy, economics, art, literature, physics, chemistry, World War 2 history, Byzantine history, have an IQ of 143 (I don't mean to brag, but there it is), and simply cannot tolerate fools like you. I'm kind of a geek.
Once again - Sheesh! You Liberals! :)

[Xtcy2083]

I mean "its wheat fields". There should be no apostrophe there.

[Naydyonov]

Oil?
Russia: 80 billion barrels of proven oil reserves as of 2016
Ukraine: 395 million barrels of proven oil reserves as of 2016
Giving Russia oil reserves 202.5x larger than Ukraine's.
Why on earth would Russia want Ukrainian oil if it not only has its own, but can take over Kazakhstan with its 30 billion barrels worth of oil reserves (76x more than Ukraine)?

[Xtcy2083]

@Naydyonov Exactly! Why would Putin want anyone else's oil? Russia doesn't need oil, it already has plenty.

[Naydyonov]

@Xtcy2083 Yep. Not to say Putin doesn't have other interests in Ukraine, but oil is not one of them.
And yeah, Caucasus is in Russia and was Hitler's goal for his 1942 summer offensive. There is no doubt about this. A capture of Stalingrad would allow Germany to cut off trade over the Volga, as well as establish a defense line on the Volga. This would help secure Army Group South's advance towards Baku. Otherwise, they'd be at risk of being cut off from the north side.

[Xtcy2083]

@Naydyonov Hey, someone else who actually knows what he's talking about. Finally! :)
Too many people here on GAG seem to be so impressed with their rather shallow and inaccurate understanding, and appreciation of, the complex issues involved, but they just wind up making complete fools of themselves. The Dunning-Kruger Effect I believe it is now known as.

[OddBeMe]

@Naydyonov ill demur to the Eastern Europeans who put up with Putin. But oil is everyone’s concern is oil.

[Naydyonov]

Oil is a concern, but Putin's interest is not in acquisition of Ukrainian oil. Arguing his concern are the pipelines running through Ukraine would make much more sense. As it is now, Russia has plenty of oil and has no need for Ukraine for that specific resource.

[OddBeMe]

@Naydyonov I’ll concede then.

[Naydyonov]

I respect this. Many people would not concede. by the way, Ukraine does have plenty of goods things going for it. Hitler did in fact want Ukraine for its fertile lands. So your comparison otherwise does make sense, though we can debate to what extent fertile lands are needed by Russia, considering its own agriculture.

[OddBeMe]

@Naydyonov I did read it had fertile fields during WW2. Not sure if that’s still a thing.

[Naydyonov]

It is!
While countries like America, Russia, China, India tend to dominate the top producing-country rankings for various food products, Ukraine is still in the top rankings by output:
Currant (3rd place), Gooseberry (2nd place), Sunflower Seed (1st place), Pumpkin (2nd place), Cucumber (4th place), Potato (4th place), Carrot (5th place), Rapeseed (5th place), Cabbage (5th place).
So while not an amazing agricultural producer overall (China & India generally dominate the rankings, but also do have an extra billion people each and much larger land areas which are also super fertile), but for country which is not very technologically advanced, does not have a huge farming population, or a huge land area, its agricultural output is still quite impressive on the whole.

[ObscuredBeyond]

Unpaid electric bills.

[Exterminatore]

Land and bodies to serve as troops.

[FilmGuy93]

A shit load of oil

[Xtcy2083]

Russia already has more than enough oil, it doesn't need anyone else's.

[FilmGuy93]

@Xtcy2083 Yes, my mistake. The Ukrainians control access to a pipeline to move the oil.

[Soteris]

It moves natural gas, not oil. Also its more of a strategic resource intending to make Europe dependent on Russia rather than a direct benefit to Russia itself.

[FilmGuy93]

@Soteris Still sounds like a pretty direct benefit to Russia, to me.

[Soteris]

I mean it does not hurt really but it makes no big difference one way or another. As an example, the gas pipelines through Ukraine is being avoided in the conflict not because Russia would be upset but because it would significantly cause problems in Europe.

[anylolone]

Ukraine.