Do you believe freedom and democracy are compatible?

[goaded]

"I remain committed to the faith of my teenage years: to authentic human freedom as a precondition for the highest good. I stand against confiscatory taxes, totalitarian collectives, and the ideology of the inevitability of the death of every individual. For all these reasons, I still call myself “libertarian.”

But I must confess that over the last two decades, I have changed radically on the question of how to achieve these goals. Most importantly, I no longer believe that freedom and democracy are compatible. By tracing out the development of my thinking, I hope to frame some of the challenges faced by all classical liberals today."

https://www.cato-unbound.org/2009/04/13/peter-thiel/education-libertarian/

Me? I think democracy is the only way to protect freedom.

Yes

No

Don't know, see results

[OpenClose]

I'm surprised how many guys in here said yes.

Lots of conservatives on here. And their talking point these days is that "America is not and should not be a democracy" and "the individual is not owed representation. Only the states." And whatnot.

Probably to justify not winning a popular vote for a new president since Bush Sr.


It's also standard talking points now that "either we win the election, or the election was hijacked". Probably because someone set that precedent recently.

But basically, you have the constitution to protect individual rights, and you have elections to make sure that nobody gets into power without popular mandate. Once leaders start holding power without popular mandate, a republic is on its way out.

[OddBeMe]

No…with a but.

Everyone’s idea of freedom is different, like religion. But i’d say “democracy” isn't real, honestly. We’re in a republic with free-ish elections. But rich men are heard more.

[goaded]

Any system with elections is a democracy.

[OddBeMe]

I guess. But I wouldn't call Russia a democracy. You Putin was democratically elected?

[goaded]

Maybe the first time, but what happens to everyone who tries to run against him? Nobody gets 99% of the vote, at least 1% make mistakes.

[OddBeMe]

Yeah thats why i hesitate to call any country with “voting” democracy.

[BlacklightShade]

When banks and corporations pay politicians to pass laws that go against voter's best interests, it's no longer a democracy.

[goaded]

It's certainly a failing one in that case. Citizens United basically made that legal.

[DaveJord]

I think the Freedom that we find under Democratic Rule is compatible, and is probably the best thing we have going... so in that regard I am committed.

But also believe the Freedom is the greatest lie ever told, because as long as we have a society there will be rules and regulations and we will have to pay taxes and will be bound to the yoke of the limitations of government.

But Democracy is the best thing going.

[goaded]

"Many forms of Gov­ern­ment have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pre­tends that democ­ra­cy is per­fect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democ­ra­cy is the worst form of Gov­ern­ment except for all those oth­er forms that have been tried from time to time.…" Winston Churchill.

Also: "How is that word “democ­ra­cy” to be inter­pret­ed? My idea of it is that the plain, hum­ble, com­mon man, just the ordi­nary man who keeps a wife and fam­i­ly, who goes off to fight for his coun­try when it is in trou­ble, goes to the poll at the appro­pri­ate time, and puts his cross on the bal­lot paper show­ing the can­di­date he wish­es to be elect­ed to Parliament—that he is the foun­da­tion of democracy.

And it is also essen­tial to this foun­da­tion that this man or woman should do this with­out fear, and with­out any form of intim­i­da­tion or vic­tim­iza­tion. He marks his bal­lot paper in strict secre­cy, and then elect­ed rep­re­sen­ta­tives and togeth­er decide what gov­ern­ment, or even in times of stress, what form of gov­ern­ment they wish to have in their coun­try. If that is democ­ra­cy, I salute it. I espouse it. I would work for it.” —House of Com­mons, 8 Decem­ber 1944

[DaveJord]

A true democracy would be 51% majority rule, legislators would write laws and every law would be past by public referendum by popular vote. No electoral colleges, no super majorities, just straight up and down votes. So obviously we do not have and nor is there any type of True Democracy in the world. Athens is the closes thing we have ever seen to a true democracy... so it hypothetical talk when make these comparisons.

Basically any country with some type of voting standards is base upon democratic principals... but not in and of itself Democratic.

[goaded]

There are a multitude of democratic systems, most include representative democracies, because who has the time to look into the details of every bill affecting tens or hundreds of millions of people?

[RolandCuthbert]

Yeah trumpturds are on some kick that that we are not a democracy. Simply because we use reps to make political decisions.

It is just a strategy to make the argument that elections should not matter. As the only reason why we have reps. . . is because we elect them through majority vote. Well. . . except the President who has to win the electoral college.

[jshm2]

Don't be daft.

Nothing has stolen more freedoms, caused more loss of life, and caused more inequality than democracies.

It's why there are no pure democracies as the system is as bad as pure communism.

You just replace dictators and generals with CEO's and billionaires.

Each side exists to feed each others polemics. Politicians have replaced priests as the people causing the problems and then charging the public for the "solutions" to the problems they've created.

Just like we got rid of colonialism and Christendom to rid the world of "priest rule" so the next stage is becoming inevitable to get rid of corporatism to rid the world of "political rule"

[msc545]

This depends a lot on your definition of "freedom". You cannot do whatever you want and live with others, because inevitably you end up infringing on their freedom.

[Adam1978]

Democracy is the best government system so far for freedom. All other systems has been less free. But there is plenty to improve when it comes to democracy. And very little interest from people with power to do so.

[Jamie05rhs]

If you don't have freedom, you don't have democracy. Because democracy requires a free people in order to be legitimate. Otherwise the whole thing is fake and a sham.

[joeldalton]

A libertarian would never advocate for vaccine mandates, lol.

[goaded]

How about for choosing a side of the road for everyone to drive on?

[joeldalton]

nice dodge, lol.

[goaded]

Not really. Both things would obviously save lives.

[joeldalton]

If the government didn't mandate the side of the road, people would figure it out.

[goaded]

Of course they would,

[joeldalton]

Ever driven in a rain storm? Do people slow down even though the government told them that they can drive 55?

[goaded]

I've seen morons drive 150 in a rainstorm.

[joeldalton]

So then the 'rules' set by the government didn't make you any safer, did they.

[goaded]

It was legal.

[joeldalton]

It's not legal to drive 150 in the US, lol.

[goaded]

It is here.

[joeldalton]

Oh you’re pretending you’re in Germany today?

[goaded]

I've never pretended I was anywhere else than I was. I suspect you know that and are just lying again.

[joeldalton]

Bullshit and you know it.

[goaded]

Projection, again. Just another of your transparent lies.

[joeldalton]

@goaded. You’re starting to sound like papi choo choo, now. You two must be hanging out, now.

[goaded]

So you think you deserve any respect, when you lie on a daily basis? Tough.

[joeldalton]

Your problem is you think your respect is something anyone desires.

[Snakeyes7]

In a pure democracy it will depend on the will of the majority. If the majority wants everyone to be enslaved by the state, it will happen.

[Juxtapose]

There are no true democracies really, only Swiss cantons of Appenzell Innerrhoden and Glarus.

[MrTaboo]

It's has been for well over 200 years

[jimmy2]

It is for sure