US Supreme Court takes up race-based college admissions. To what extent should race be a factor?

[Adaeva]

Proponents for affirmative action in higher education rally in front of the U. S. Supreme Court

Before writing the following, I discussed the subject with my family and read a number of articles:

If two students are equally qualified the college should give preference to the minority student. However, “A white, out-of -state male who had only a 10% chance of admission would have a 98% chance if UNC treated him as an African American and a 69% chance if UNC treated him as a Hispanic.” https://www.cnn.com/2022/10/30/politics/harvard-unc-supreme-court-affirmative-action/index.html

One solution would be to admit the minority student but expel the student if he doesn't pass his coursed and at colleges such as Harvard, the courses should have extremely high standards to pass.

[NamerOfStars]

It shouldn't- admission should be based on MERIT. Full stop. Concerned about subconscious bias impacting that? Okay- anonymize the process; don't give the admissions department anything that could identify race or sex.

You say that "If two students are equally qualified the college should give preference to the minority student"- why? If punishing people for the color of their skin is wrong- something we all used to agree on- then it's WRONG. But if you cold-heartedly insist on doing it, then why do it to favor the person whose ethnic group is underperforming? Why reward incompetence? What's going to motivate the members of a group to do a better job if you discriminate in their favor? Expanding a welfare program to make sure you don't starve isn't the same thing as a expanding an "affirmative action" program to make sure you can make six figures at a Fortune 500 company.

The Chinese, the Jews, and the Irish each took their turn as the bottom rung of society- and each, through industriousness, education, and the willingness to fight social battles no other group was willing to, rose out of that. Punishing their descendants because their ancestors WORKED to fix their situations is just going to encourage other people to wallow in mediocrity.

[exitseven]

I teach at a local college. They definitely give preference to minority students. Then they set them up with tutors and have "retention counselors" in case they are in danger of failing. All the courses are dumbed down as well. Race should not even be a factor.

[exitseven]

Thanks for the MHO😎

[OddBeMe]

I’m not an asshole. :)

[exitseven]

@OddBeMe I never said you were, .

[OddBeMe]

I meant this on another guy…but I’m seriously not!!! Lol

[exitseven]

@OddBeMe I know that.

[Anonymous]

Universities like Harvard or any IVY League universities only benefit people of color. There's a stereotype that blacks and Hispanics are "welfare sponges," "lazy," or affirmative action hires. So having "Harvard." on their resume shows the employer that they know what they are doing.

I have taken classes at the ivy league, and the work is basically the same. I finished at a state school because I didn't want to take out loans. The only difference is the curriculum is more strict. At the state schools, the professor is more lenient. As a white man, I had no problem getting a high-paying career despite finishing at a lower school.

I have seen black and Hispanic resumes get rejected if they had a black-sounding or Spanish-sounding name. And they would only hire people of color if they have a prestigious university on their resume. Of course, the employer is not stupid. He won't outright say that's the reason why, but they will come up with any reason not to hire them. "too much cologne," "doesn't sit still," "lack of enthusiasm," even though he is qualified to do the job.

You can say, "that's against the law, and they can't do that," but that argument is based on hope and ethics. And do you think everyone in the world is ethical? Nope. Like I've seen a lot of corporations lower people's hours right before they hit retirement age.

They lower their hours so they won't have enough money to pay their bills and have to quit their job. And the reason they only reduce it is that if they fire them, they have to pay them unemployment, or the employee can take legal action.

[Adaeva]

Saying you have seen this or that is meaningless because you provide zero proof that your claims are true.

[Opinion Owner]

As much as I would love to post my personal information on a website with 1000s of crazy trolls, I am sorry I won't.

But I suggest you ask any white or black person if they love corporate life.

[RavVid]

Not a US citizen and I am not wanting to comment on US politics. But this something of a generic Western problem in terms of having relatively fair outcomes across sections of society. So please view in that light.

This approach has been problematic in Australia as while it is a nice idea to give a leg up to disadvantaged students it often doesn't work out that way.

If you admit a disadvantage student but they struggle to meet the high standards and you expel them then perhaps all you have done is to give the disadvantaged student a very negative life experience. Possibly one that drags them down in life instead of boosting them up.

Even without an expulsion clause if students struggle in a course they usually end up dropping out. Much the same result.

A better way might be to help disadvantaged students financially so they can do courses they have a reasonable expectation of completing successfully.

[Adaeva]

If elite college had very high for students after they are admitted, that might be true. However, once admitted, it is hard to fail. For example, in reality, it’s very difficult to fail out of Harvard. With Harvard’s grade inflation, about half of the grades awarded are either A’s or A-‘s. In fact, Harvard has a rule that not more than 50 percent of any graduating class can graduate with honors. That makes graduating with honors meaningless.

[RavVid]

OK I was unaware of those aspects s thanks for the info.

[jshm2]

It isn't a factor and that is what the court is hoping will be revealed in the case - if it takes it up.

The main issue is not around race but experiences by minorities. A Black or Jew getting a degree is no different to a White getting a degree. But the allegation is around the "minorities" getting an easier ride to a pass, than a White person.

Whereas the opposite is more likely true. The minorities have to work twice as hard to "prove" themselves, will be getting less help, but subject to more clique behaviours than an equivalent White student.

But ultimately it's because America, despite all it's equality pretensions, does have a social class system which is heavily based on race and upbringing.

[goaded]

By all means get rid of race based affirmative action, but not without also getting rid of legacy admissions. If most former students are white, most legacy admissions will be too.

Another field-levelling approach might be to consider how well they did compared to the rest of their final school class. The top 5% (say) from any school have worked harder or been smarter, or both, than the other 95%.

It's easier to get good grades in a school that has small class sizes, excellent resources, and extra assistance for students that are falling behind than one that doesn't.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legacy_admissions

[goaded]

OK, so what was worth a disagree? People generally look like their parents. Prioritising people who look like the class of 2000, who look like the class of 1980, prioritises white people.

[jorfan3]

I don't understand why race is even a factor. Why is that on the application?

Applications should be race blind, and may the odds be ever in your favor. If we did that, it would be totally unbiased, and colored and white students could attend 100% on merit, nothing else. The way it should be.

[OddBeMe]

Two students are never “equally qualified”. That’s impossible. Similar, sure. And it seems admission boards decided by flawed humans.


All I know is resumes and apps from minorities are passed over 10x more in other areas. But immigrant families push their kids 10x harder than families who’ve been here for generations.

[Adaeva]

No two people are identical but with scores of 0 to 100, dozens of students will have identical scores. If 300 people have a score of 90 and 50 are black and the college only selects 49 with a score of 90, should the 49 be black when whites Asians with scores of 95 are not selected? In the first case, perhaps but surely not the second case.

[OddBeMe]

No doubt that happens. Humans make decisions poorly or based on politics. But perhaps the chosen applicant has the same gpa, but more rounded electives.

[Adaeva]

Then the chosen applicant would have a higher score. I'm talking about blacks admitted with the same or lower scores. College admission process looks at the whole person. That means they have a holistic approach to the admission review. Grades are the foundation in the process but they look beyond just the grade point average. They look at the individual course work from 9 - 12 grade, types of courses and trends in your grades. Along with grades, an essay, a resume, a recommendation and possible conversation with the student will be utilized before they make their final decision.

[OddBeMe]

What made these scores so low? Racism or just a poorer student? Obviously college admission boards aren’t a numbers game as they’re filled with people making decisions like detectives. And corruption can happen.

So perhaps the scoring confuses me.

[Snakeyes7]

None. Race shouldn't be considered for admissions at all.

Also the lady who is holding the Asian-Americans for affirmative action sign obviously doesn't know what she is advocating for. As far as colleges with existing affirmative action policies go, Asians are put at a lower tier than white people are.

[Anonymous]

I understand the arguments for equity but it still seems unfair. My conclusion is it's a clumsy sticky plaster over a complicated system of failure that governments can't or won't resolve and for a number of reasons, many of which they won't dare discuss with the likes of us

[BeMuse]

It's hilarious that those protesters don't want to go back to equality. That tells you everything you need to know about them.

[Paul_in_Indy]

With the current downward trend in university admissions numbers, this looks more and more like an obsolete concern.

[Sasahara]

None at all. Racism against white people (as in giving them less of chance for being white) should not be seen as more acceptable than other forms.

[Adaeva]

Should disparities in wealth by race and ethnicity be a factor? "Middle-income white households typically have twice as much wealth as their Latinx counterparts and three times more wealth than their black counterparts. As a result, students of color (especially black students) are more likely than similarly situated white students to attend underfunded and high-poverty K-12 schools."
www.americanprogress.org/.../

[Sasahara]

No. Everyone should have a equal chance to get in based on their qualifications. No special treatment. Also, latinx is a madeup term that is offensive to latino people.

[KostasKouvalis]

It would be interesting to do a study on who's more likely to flunk their courses.

But keep this up, and we'll become the next South Africa.

[AviatorTom]

Admission should be based on the student's qualifications, not race or gender,

[HighValue]

Affirmative action is racist and do is anybody that supports it.

[Dargil]

None whatsoever. I can accept academic performance and personal character.

[BJP21]

They only thing I can think of is to prevent exclusion of a race.

[Anonymous]

Until you white people make equality more fair for my people then we should consider race into applications because I think we should keep affirmative action until you white people fix the system.

[KrakenAttackin]

The more racial preferences are enforced the more racism there will be.

[LazerBean]

Not at all.