Should we be funding the Ukrainians?

[OddBeMe]

Seems like anti-war repubs are coming out of the woodwork. And I didn't hear them complaining about Syria or Iraq...

Yes, the Ukrainians are under attack

No, we should stay out

No, Russia had a reason to invade

other

[nightdrot]

Voted Yes, - both in the form of military supplies and "cash" when necessary. Though that is not to suggest that the United States should go any further than that. It being important to add that the US has interests in Ukraine, but such interests are secondary and derivative.

It being best to start by recalling that through most of American history, Ukraine was part of Imperial Russia and from 1920 to 1991 the Soviet Union. This having no noticeable or deleterious impact on the American global strategic position.

Ukraine's current significance to the USA is rather based on its impact on several NATO allies. This especially true of Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Romania and to a lesser extent Hungary. The loss of Ukraine to Russia, absent American security assurances to those aforementioned states, would undermine their strategic position and likely result in the collapse of NATO.

Please also note that the dispute over Ukraine has already, in any case, divided NATO. Britain has been aggressive about sending weapons and diplomatic support to Ukraine. By contrast, Germany is seeking to develop its economic and trade ties with Russia, while using NATO security assurances to protect its own security interests. France, (with some sotto voce help from Italy) in all this, has been quietly seeking to entangle Russia more deeply in Europe, thereby making it a counterweight to German influence in the EU.

Put simply, there is a tangle of conflicting interests not just between NATO and Russia, but within NATO. Thus, to use and extreme example, for the United States to step in with a direct military intervention would likely please Poland, the Baltic States, Romania and the UK, but it would shatter German ties with NATO. This then effectively render NATO "null and void" as it is the fastest strategic access point to eastern Europe, including Russia.

Further, any confrontation between the United States and Russia plays out to the strategic advantage of the People's Republic of China. If the Americans and Russians are engaged in a conflict, (again, assuming that it does not go nuclear in which events all bets are off), China is left a free hand toward Taiwan and the South China Sea, This also meaning, in effect, that the USA would be abandoning Japan, South Korea, Australia, New Zealand and Thailand.

Put simply, the United States cannot walk away from Ukraine, but its interests require that it avoid war. Consequently, there is little beyond diplomatic and economic sanctions that the United States can offer. A direct military conflict between the USA and Russia would split NATO, to the latter's advantage, and give China a free hand.

This is a game of three dimensional chess and not simply a test of wills. The historic interests of the major European powers are at play and in this case American direct interests are secondary. For the USA, this is about reassuring NATO's eastern flank, balancing the interests of NATO's other major members - the UK, France, Germany and Italy - in order to keep the alliance whole.

This is not a mere contest of muscle. Suffice to add that it would be profoundly dangerous to see it in such simplistic terms.

[Daniela1982]

Unfortunately, cash can go into people's pockets as there is no oversite committee to see where the money goes. Since we, and others have given them so much in supplies why would they need that much cash? For all we know the cash never reaches them and is spent for black ops use in the US.

[nightdrot]

@Daniela1982 Well, obviously there has to be proper oversight. Further, when I used the word "cash" in this context I was referring to the normal methods of exchange in the international system. This including credits, loans and the like.

In any case, please note that any "cash" provided by the United States is in the form of U. S. dollars which can only be spent in the USA. Excepting of course that dollars can be traded for other currencies, but even in that case the money flows go back to the USA.

This why foreign aid, despite its' nominal unpopularity, remains a tool of US foreign policy. It both affords influence to the USA in diplomatic terms and also rebounds to the benefit of US companies.

Mostly, by the way, the Ukrainians are using such aid - and by far the majority of what we have sent has been military equipment - for medical supplies, food and other disaster relief supplies and equipment. In any case, as I say, direct US financial payments have been very small.

[OddBeMe]

Very true.

[Daniela1982]

Not on the beginning, but all that stuff we donate has to be replaced, and that DOES cost us money.

[OddBeMe]

@Daniela1982 it’s like lend lease. The govt would probably be buying it anyway just to store in a garage. Google “Abrams tanks parking lot”

[Daniela1982]

Funny how they mothball expensive machinery but balk when the post office wants to buy new vehicles which haven' been replaced since 1978.

[nightdrot]

@Daniela1982 Consider it an investment. Better to be donating American equipment to Ukrainian soldiers then American soldiers shedding their blood as they use American equipment. Short term gain to avoid very long term pain. @OddBeMe is right in his Lend-Lease comparison.

In any case, it is funny how the American public complains that it wastes its tax dollars. 1 in 7 who work, work for government. 1 in 6 is a Social Security recipient - for a program that as the population now has $22 trillion in unfunded liabilities but the public won't consent to any changes to it. 1/3 of all families this year will receive some form of transfer payment - in effect, free money. Less than half of ALL Americans pay any income tax at all.

If you want to see where the nation's fiscal problems begin - look at those stats. Ukraine is a drop in the bucket by comparison - and that is before you count the potential cost in blood and treasure if the USA's foreign adversaries become emboldened.

[Curmudgeon]

"Seems like anti-war repubs are coming out of the woodwork. And I didn't hear them complaining about Syria or Iraq..."

It is really time for you to update your political map of understanding. The fact is that there is now a low-key Civil War within the Republican Party, between The Globalist faction (Bush dynasty as archetypes) and the Nationalist faction (Trump as archetype). See also my analysis here:
How do you identify yourself politically? Why?

There have been fights within the Republican Party between the more cosmopolitan factions and the more provincial factions in the past, examples of which being Dewey vs. Taft, Rockefeller vs. Goldwater. But all through the Cold War era, there was a consensus that the Soviet Empire was just too menacing and dangerous to be isolationist, and so the Globalist faction generally held sway. This even lasted for a couple of decades after said empire fell apart, because many former Soviet clients became Troublemaking Turd World Tin-Horn Tyrants (e. g. Saddam Hussein).

However, in recent years the Globalist viewpoint is becoming dubious.

1. For starters, Globalism and "nation building" overseas benefits exactly whom? Certainly not the American working class, who have seen their old livelihoods disrupted and torn apart by this Globalism, even as they provide the military personnel to enforce this New World Order that is stacked against them. This, as well as Leftist "Woke" social engineering experiments in the military, explains the declining enlistments in same. It used to be that "What was good for General Motors was good for America", but increasingly the New Tech and Media corporations not only *do not* pay lip service to Americana anymore, but all too often are contemptuous of it. And so the American working class and small business class (the small business class really being the Republican Party core and backbone) is getting sick and tired of the Globalist Elite faction of the GOP wanting yet another foreign intervention.

2. And the Globalist promises of "Cakewalks", where the natives would greet the arriving American peacekeeping troops with "flowers and kisses", well, they were deluded at best and lying at worst.

3. "Nation Building" is increasingly proving to be a fool's errand. From Afghanistan to Bosnia, some nations are Humpty Dumpties, and all of our bombers and all of our men will not put them together again, as if they ever were together.

4. And so called "allies" are free riding and not pulling their weight on this peacekeeping task. Bosnia was driving distance from Italy and Germany, yet the USA had to do the heavy lifting. Arrogant Eurotrash boast of their wonderful social services the USA lacks, while relying on the USA to defend them. We could afford a lot more nice domestic programs over here, and the Eurotrash could afford a lot less nice domestic programs over there, if they pulled their military weight in proportion to what the USA has to do. Moreover, certain parts of the world, like Africa, were former European colonies, and the Europeans need to do the policing there. America has its hands full in the rest of the world as it is.

5. And what happens when your foes have a point? If Bosnian Serbs actually want to be in Greater Serbia, who are we to stop them? If the Crimea, Donbass, Donetsk, and Transnistria regions of the on paper Ukraine are chock full of ethnic Russians who are alienated and persecuted by Ukranian hyper-nationalism, are we really supposed to "take back" those places? If you look at the Russian military record, the areas of on paper Ukraine they have taken they did not really conquer but rather they were *invited in*.

So to answer your poll, "Yes, the Ukrainians are under attack" (in the sense that Putin would love Ukraine to be a compliant Russian client state like Belarus is),

but ALSO "No, Russia had a reason to invade" (in the sense that the on-paper borders of Ukraine are chock full of persecuted ethnic Russians and have been for centuries, and the boundaries of the former "Soviet Republics" were drawn for internal Soviet political reasons and not because they accurately reflected what ethnic group of the Soviet Empire actually lived where).

Now you "Woke", "Intersectional", Race-Baiting, and Gender-Bent Leftists are still scum and need to be snuffed out, but it turns out that the "Old Left", the Left of Trade Unions and working stiffs, may have had a point after all. The Old Left and the New Right (in terms of USA politics) might not be so far apart after all.

[OddBeMe]

So we shouldn’t trade globally?

[Curmudgeon]

@OddBeMe We could certainly trade on terms more favorable to us. We need not be chumps. Moreover, not if the cost of that is dangerously fragile supply chains (as we saw during COVID) or declining environmental quality (of all people, YOU ought to be sensitive to that!).

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

Russians weren't being persecuted in the areas of de-facto Ukrainian control (in fact most of the ceasefire violations in the months leading up to the 24th of February were committed by the separatists) but now thousands of Ukrainians are being killed by the Russian invasion.

Also, there has been a concerted propaganda campaign to portray the Donbas conflict as a regional uprising against Kiev that was brutally repressed when it wasn't. The Ukrainian army in 2014 was in tatters and most of the fighting in the Donbas was between Pro-Kiev and Pro-Kremlin militias that were home grown in the Donbas. So, the conflict would be best described as a Donbas Civil war (hence the ceasefire line runs down the middle of Donbas and Russia still hasn't been able to wrestle full control of it).

[OddBeMe]

@Curmudgeon Also if there's really that big of a civil war in the Repubs they need to separate more so we can tell them apart. If I identify with a broad brush and they get paint on them they're standing too close togeterh

[OddBeMe]

Also, I know everyone wants Europe to pull their weight, NATO wise, but that would mean counties rearming themselves. Do we really want that?

[Daniela1982]

Do we really have the money to help the Ukraine when we don't really have a spare dime to give? How much more debt can we afford? We are already $Trillions in debt and can't even cover the interest on this debt. To help you better understand this. One Trillion is a million millons. If we paid $1million per day, it would take more than 2,000 years to pay off just one $Trillion. And we have 30. China will be wanting their money some day as we owe them a wad of cash - $870 Billion. China has the second-greatest amount of U. S. debt held by a foreign country. Japan consistently tops the list, with the US owning about $1.3 trillion as of October 2021.
We are spending $Billions on illegal immigrants and doing squat for homeless/homeless vets, or the Elderly as Congress has raided the SS Fund in the past and not paid it back, so they could do it again. Frankly, I'm tired of the US taxpayers being everyone's cash cow. So let the rest of the World help out. We are busted. Also, the Russian people do not want this war. The soldiers are being forced to fight. If they don't they get shot by their own officers. Hell, a whole slew of them fled to other countries before they could be drafted. So we actually have a part of all these unfortunate soldier's murders. So we are providing Ukraine weapons for these murders. And yet our hypocritical Government want to take our guns away!

[OddBeMe]

That is an important question that’s not getting asked for a lot of things. Our military doesn’t use tanks anymore but still pays for hundreds of them for contractors. Seems like funding free people in Ukraine supersede that at least.

[Anonymous]

I see one huge problem with this war. This war can't have a winner or all hope is lost. Thats why we need to help Ukraine to defend its boarders but also stop them from getting agressive against Russia. I see two acceptable outcomes from this war.

1. Peace treaty with status quo: 23.02.2022 with Ukraine getting into Nato and states in power give Ukraine protection against a reinvade.

2. Successful civil Revolution in Russia. With Putin and his followers gone. Also resulting in a peace treaty.

Everything else even Ukraine winning the war is not helping, because Russia will not accept a loss and we all know what they have and we also learned that Putin is not caring about humans. Everything with Ukraine loosing is obviously not acceptable it has to stay a sovereign state of its own.

[Jerre]

An excellent response!

[OddBeMe]

Yeah, good answer. I really hope they didn’t murder that oligarchs daughter in Moscow with the car bomb.

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

Yes, but I think there should be calls for de-militarization across Europe (including the removal of US bases in Europe). This may seem counter-intuitive with Russia on the warpath BUT lets look at the big picture here. A common argument for NATO expansion was "where would countries like Poland be right now if NATO wasn't there to protect them from Russia?".

Well, given the performance of the Russian military in Ukraine, if they tried this kind of shit with Poland, the Polish army would mop the floor with them and months ago they'd have taken Minsk and would be dictating peace terms there. So regardless of how bellicose you think the Russian leadership is, they are militarily too weak to justify the kind of military buildup that we see in NATO countries today.

I'll admit the Western media jumped the gun big time when they said the world stands against Russia, but this picture nailed how the conflict changed the global view of Russia.

[Anonymous]

One of my biggest fears is the western influence.
-blm and black supremacy movements. Basically, your population gets replaced and you lose representation. For instance black people account for 12% of population in USA but they are over represented in almost everything. Whenever I watch commercials, all I see is mostly black people. I want my own people to be represented fairly in their own countries. I am not saying black people shouldn’t be represented but to cater to black people the way the west does is truly freighting to me.
-LGBTQIA+ these people are hurting women sports. There are women that are getting injured while playing with guys. There are also men in women’s bathrooms. This is not okay at all. Men should not be in female sports at all.
-degeneracy. American culture used to be really awesome and respectful. White guys were so powerful and respected that even today’s degenerates are seen with respect from the world and the USA still has a major influence despite all the degeneracy inside the culture. It is getting out of hand. We are talking about destruction of identities and calling it diversity. That is not okay either. Japan should stay majority Japanese. Russia should stay majority Russian. America wants to destroy their identity then let them do it themselves. DO NOT PUSH THESE RULES DOWN THE REST OF THE WORLD.


Please stay out of our countries. Russia is defending themselves from the western influence. They will be overtaken by the same western influence and before you know it, Russia will be destroyed in the future. We have to fight back against the western influence.

[OddBeMe]

Was America ever assisted in our fights for freedom?

[AmandaYVR]

Some aid was definitely warranted. But the cheques (or, checks, if you prefer) have to stop being written at some point. But I suppose this is a tactical move, rather than a moral one. The U. S. is afraid of Russia gaining too much power. I expect it's more about that now than Ukrainian sovereignty.

[OddBeMe]

Cheques or checks…. that’s the British spelling you loyalist scum! This is America!

[OddBeMe]

Sorry just read 1776 book.

[AmandaYVR]

Oooh, getting playful with me, eh? Aight.
First thing I thought of was the OG "Star Wars" and "Rebel scum!" I always remembered that. Burned into my brain as a child.

[exitseven]

It wouldn't be so bad if the other NATO countries would actually contribute some serious money for Ukraine but as usual they have only given a fraction of what the US is giving and these countries are a lot closer to Russia than the US is. Also there has been little or no oversight on where all that money is going.

[OddBeMe]

Aren’t they? Have you looked up how much other countries are giving?

[exitseven]

According to Wikipedia (it might be all lies) Great Britain gave 3.5 billion, Germany and France gave 1 Billion dollars each. Sweden also gave a billion. Most of the countries gave nothing and some gave between 1-200 million. The US has sent 20 Billion already and Biden is making noises about sending more.

[Anonymous]

Um, nope. We have thousands of homeless vets at home, nope, sorry we just don't have the money, good luck living on the streets. Corrupt Ukrainian government, we provoked Russia until they invaded us can you send some help? Sure here's a blank check take as much as you need. I don't care whether your a republican or democrat, both sides should be outraged that we never have money to take care of our vets, but Ukraine, who's be labeled the most corrupt country/government comes knocking for money, both sides are right there ready to hand them a check.

[OddBeMe]

Seems like we could do both, right? It’s not build a highway or a school. Normal people can do two things at a time. Maybe more if you’re evolved.

[Opinion Owner]

We could do both, but seeing as Ukraine government is corrupt, we shouldn't.
www.theguardian.com/.../welcome-to-the-most-corrupt-nation-in-europe-ukraine

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

Or we could slash our military budget, give the decommissioned equipment to Ukraine and use the extra money to help the homeless.

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

That's what I call killing two birds with one stone.

[Jamie05rhs]

All of those people are just closeted Russophiles. It's some weird new trendy fetish they have going on on the Right these days.
Don't ask me, because I don't get it, either.

[Jamie05rhs]

Also, it's funny how Ukraine is the "bridge too far" when it comes to Congressional spending. Like all of the other spending bills were okay but this one just won't do. Okay, suuurre.

[OddBeMe]

True. These same fcks were excoriating Obama over Syria just a few years ago.

[Jamie05rhs]

@OddBeMe IKR

[purplepoppy]

You either support Ukraine or Russia, there's no neutral ground. If you do nothing then you are supporting Russia.

[OddBeMe]

Agreed.

[jshm2]

It's because Iraq and Syria weren't White people.

Plus, most of them have probably bought a Ukrainian mistress or two over the years...

[OddBeMe]

That worries the hell outta me. I have seen an uptick in Ukrainian ads for women. And even if just 1% are sex traffickers that’s horrible

[lalaloveee]

Ukraine should fend for themselves and whatever happens happens

[OddBeMe]

You do know the US was helped by France against Britain right?

[HippieVeganJewslim]

Так, товарищ. Putin has no good enough reason to murder innocent Ukrainian civilians. However, We should help the State of Palestine and the region of Uyghur as well. Are Y’all helping them, OddBeMe?

[andreasderjuengere]

Other: who is ''we''?

Personally, I'd never support the idea to assist the murder of the child of one mother. No matter where from.

[Shamalien]

If America wasn’t fucking around in Ukraine there would BE no war. America was using Ukraine as a proxy and a front for a bioweapons attack

[OddBeMe]

Umm, Russia invaded back in 2014. What “fucking around” has the US been doing?

[Shamalien]

Setting up bioweapons labs along the ukraine russia border?

[Juxtapose]

No, we should not be sending over $100 billion to a foreign country when our own infrastructure is crumbling.

[OddBeMe]

Why can’t we do both?

[Juxtapose]

It's way too much money. The debt has meaning.

[OddBeMe]

It’s literally a tear drop compared to 30 trillion. You want to get serious about the debt, it’s military spending, Medicare and social security. Have at it.

[Juxtapose]

When there is a fire in the house it is best to not light more things on fire but instead focus on putting it out.

I think the entire military should be replaced with a militia and all citizens should be mandated to have guns and be trained with them. We should withdraw all military activity outside of the country and let the rest of the world sort itself out.

Medicare and social security could be funded if we tax the fuck out of these oligarchs.

[Jerre]

I voted yes, but perhaps not to the extent that we are currently doing. Time for European Countries to do more than they are now.

[OddBeMe]

How much are they contributing? Have you looked it up?

[Jerre]

Combining all European Countries, they are paying 10% of what the US is paying

[KrakenAttackin]

I supported the Ukrainians UNTIL the most corrupt Democrats begin making their corruption-kick back tours, now I realize it's all a scam.

[msc545]

Yes, but we also could engage in some very serious peace keeping as well.

[OddBeMe]

True. And checking an immature nation against reciprocating violence. I hope Ukraine didn’t kill that oligarchs daughter in that botched Moscow assassination.

[msc545]

They might have but i hope not

[OddBeMe]

That and that gas pipe explosion. It’s all curious.

[jimmy2]

It been announced Tonight bden regime told NATO to send in boots on the ground even if it means we will be drawn into war

[OddBeMe]

Stop getting your news from Putin’s cuckboys.
https://www.bbc.com/news/62974506

[joeldalton]

Not another penny to this bullshit.

[OddBeMe]

Why?

[OddBeMe]

Love you some Putin titty?

[joeldalton]

So weird you always think of gay sex. Very telling. Because Ukraine is a corrupt country and our tax dollars are being thrown over there by the billions and laundered back to our politicians. I know you think that's fine and dandy, but I do not.

[OddBeMe]

I don’t know think Ukraine really has an economy that could be corrupted at the moment as it’s being shelled by Russians.

But it’s nice that you back up Putin so loyally. You and trump should go hunting with him shirtless. No pics please.

[joeldalton]

Lmao. You’re such a fag.

[OddBeMe]

You’re the one doubletiming Putin and Trump. You like them London bridging you?

[joeldalton]

That’s your homo fantasies. What did you run out of peanut butter so now even the dog avoids you?

[ManHater]

Nuclear weapons plain and simple.

[OddBeMe]

Boom goes China? More room for you and more room for me.

[Anonymous]

Yes. Perhaps it will bring down Putin.

[OddBeMe]

yes.

[Cassie88]

HELL NO!

[OddBeMe]

Why?

[Cassie88]

Where do I even begin? Well, for starters, the funding, arming and general backing of Ukraine in their war is only making the situation far worse! You know the old expression, "Pouring petrol on the fire". That's what it's doing.
This whole stupid situation wouldn't have occurred if those imbeciles in various Western governments hadn't decided that expanding NATO territory to include former Soviet states was such a dandy idea.

[OddBeMe]

If we weren’t Ukraine would be conquered. Is that better?

[Cassie88]

Yes! Ukraine has historically always belonged to Russia. Besides, why should you care? You're not Ukrainian, you're not even European. You're just some Yank who thinks he knows better.

[OddBeMe]

If that’s the rules Mexico should invade the US and take back Texas and California.

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

If Ukraine is overtaken by Russia, the war won't end and it will cause an even longer more dragged out insurrection.

[Cassie88]

Yes, Texas (and New MEXICO, California Arizona...), belong to Mexico. It will only be a matter of time before those states secede anyway, due to the ever-increasing percentages of Spanish-speakers in those states.

[OddBeMe]

And England used to own parts of France. Which were all owned by the Roman Empire.

You're opening a whole can of worms.