What should be done about the unsafe operation of trains in the US?

[msc545]

US Corporations that operate trains are so focused on profits that the trains are operated in an unsafe manner with compromised safety equipment. The operators of a Norfolk Southern train carrying hazardous chemicals near East Palestine, Ohio, earlier this month tried to stop the train after a wheel bearing overheated to a dangerous degree, the National Transportation Safety Board said.

The trackside detectors that finally alerted the train crew of an overheating wheel bearing activated too late and by the time an alarm rang to alert the crew of the danger, the bearing was already so compromised that it failed as the train was still coming to a stop and much of the train derailed. The spacing of "hot-box" detectors and the temperatures at which they trigger alarms are not currently regulated by federal law. Summary of NTSB Report

Updates

1 y

The train track is another issue - defects in tracks cause derailments. Corporations want to use only automated track inspection (ATI) which identifies less than half of the defects. Unions want to do away with ATI for the most part and use only human inspectors.

[monorprise]

Reading how the hot-box works (basically cameras put on the side of the tracks to monitor trains externally) it seems to me it would be far less expensive to put the sensors on the train cars themselfs and monitor all the axle box constantly.

This problem goes back to the dawn of trains, akin to a car breaking down on the highway. Except trains being soo long and confined to a track there is no way for the engineer to know about the problem until its too late.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_box

Hopefully they don't try to increase the coverage of hot-boxs as there are vastly superior and more cost effective solutions today.

[msc545]

Possibly not less expensive since you would need detectors on every train covering most if not all of the wheels. Not sure but detectors might need a certain distance from a given wheel to work right.

What technology is better than the detectors they have now? I am unfamilar.

[monorprise]

That may be so, or at least was so when they started building said detectors. I am not at all convinced that is still true or will be true in the future.

The cost of supporting and maintaining distant and sprawling infrastructure like a network of external detector every few miles. Is likely far more than simply putting increasingly inexpensive electronics on the train itself.

Think about it, there may be a lot of rail road cars but there is even more rail road track, and a large share of that track is out in the middle of nowhere and thus you have to pay a good deal of money simply to reach it.

Combine this with the inherit problem of a diversity of rail road tecnoligy the detector somehow has to account for, and its going to be an ever less ideal solution to the problem.

[msc545]

I think what you've said is probably correct.

I also was considering what material (s) could be used in place of or in addition to steel for the train track. Maybe something more durable. So far, it seems like carbon steel is a choice but expensive. I wonder if there is some other material that might be more suitable?

[goaded]

I see we agree about low cost electronic detectors.

[msc545]

The corporations that own these trains are going to resist like crazy any additional expenses even if they do increase safety.

[NathanDavis]

a proper... safety, maintenance and regulation of security is not currently required by law...

that... was the work of the lobbyists who have sponsored legislators on both sides of the political spectrum

the Congress accepted these bribes by these lobbyists on behalf of these companies...

both, Republicans and Democrats got paid and the people pay the price...

what should be done? it won't be done... people are still going to vote for either Republicans or Democrats that are still going to accept the bribes from these lobbyists... on behalf of these greedy companies, business as usual...

[monorprise]

Train companies have nothing to gain from losing trains like this. They will already pay a very high price for the damages of this industrial deaster.

A deaster caused by a very old problem inherit in the Rail road tecnoligy that occurs somewhat regularly.

"regulation" such as that being pushed with the forced expanded use of external "hot box" detectors would only inhibit far better and more reliable solutions.

Solutions such as new Axel technologies and puting sensors on the car themselfs actually calibrated to the tolerances of said technology. rather than the broad rules followed by the hot-box detectors that would frankly be dangerous with some technologies.

[msc545]

@monorprise Do you have any links to promising new technologies? I am learning this stuff.

[monorprise]

Here are some of the current bearing designs they list on this website:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plain_bearing#Design

As you can see there is a variety of ranges maintenance requirements, operating conditions, temperature tolerance/failure points.

As our own material tecnoligy improves its likely we will develop or have developed even better solutions than discussed here.

What I can tell you from an electronics perspective, is that it would be rather inexpensive to install many difference sensors on these cars and calibrate them to whatever tecnoligy is being used so that we would have constant updates and adjustments relevant to what is actually being used.

The Hot-box detectors is a very crude solution.

[NathanDavis]

@monorprise

" As a result, rail carrier companies are essentially incentivized to spend less money on rail operations and more stock buybacks or dividends to measure success in the eyes of Wall Street."

roguerocket.com/.../

" Regulation

A Norfolk Southern Policy Lets Officials Order Crews to Ignore Safety Alerts

In October, months before the East Palestine derailment, the company also directed a train to keep moving with an overheated wheel that caused it to derail miles later in Sandusky, Ohio. "

www.propublica.org/.../norfolk-southern-policy-safety-alerts-east-palestine-derailment

[NathanDavis]

@monorprise the main problem is when these trains that are loaded with hazardous materials... are not subjected to the proper safety measures and protocol

they are just managed as any other regular train

" Beyond that, when the transportation safety regulations in place today were first created, “a federal agency sided with industry lobbyists and limited regulations governing the transport of hazardous compounds.”

“The decision effectively exempted many trains hauling dangerous materials — including the one in Ohio — from the ‘high-hazard’ classification and its more stringent safety requirements,” The Lever reported, adding federal officials told the outlet that the Norfolk Standard train was not being regulated as a “high-hazard flammable train.”

[monorprise]

@NathanDavis Setting aside the fact that Washington shouldn't be telling anyone how to build or run a train. Washington can't even run themselfs. I really don't buy that changing their classification makes a difference.

As for how the rail company was spending its money I suspect your not telling me the whole truth with that story. For the sake of argument investor who see greater value in a rail road sacrificing the safety of its equipment and liability are not likely to retain their wealth.

Nor does it follow that buying back your own stock is done in the interest of increasing its value instead of increasing the security and accountability of the company.

[NathanDavis]

@monorprise alternative facts... right?

[msc545]

@monorprise Thank you! That web page is very instructive as were your comments on sensors.

[ChefPapiChulo]

lol...

[lightbulb27]

Do what Toyota does, find the root source, fix it. It sounds like safety equipment put in place didn't address this issue. Treat it same as airplanes... inspect, replace, etc..

Regarding hazardous transport, seems we could have an online site with a map of such going around, maybe for private/police use only... in case nut jobs want to terrorize.

Costs go up... businesses don't pay for this, consumers do. But that's better than accidents. We don't have issues like this often, but they are dramatic when they occur. Safety should be #1.

[monorprise]

Its fairly straightforward what happened, one of the train car's many axles failed, likely due to a loss of lubricant or overlooked maintenance , and they didn't know about it until it was too late.

Its not a terribly complicated piece of tecnoligy:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_box
They been having this kind of problem with trains since day one in no small part due to the length of trains (thus distant and number of axle boxes that could fail)

The irony is they are trying to blame it on the infrequency of hot-box detectors when as a concept that tecnoligy itself is probably part of the problem given the logistical problem of supporting such external infrastructure along the tracks and the diverse needs of different of axle box technologies possible.

A far better solution is to put the sensors on the cars themselfs and calibrate them to whatever technology is being used.
This could be done relatively inexpensively today.

[Chazmatazz269]

Increase penalties to operators who cause avoidable accidents and owners who allow any number of failures. For operators, a single catastrophe should end their career if they were afforded opportunities to avoid such events. For owners, a single event should cost them EVERYTHING, and they shouldn’t be allowed to claim bankruptcy. The end result should be financial destitution and long term prison sentences for EVERY person who profited from choices that resulted in catastrophe. I personally would support public executions of such individuals.

[AviatorTom]

Overall, trains are operated safely in the US. About 70 million freight miles happen each year, with only a few accidents, and most accidents are not hazardous. Occasionally, a hazardous accident (like the one in East Palestine Ohio) occur, and government and industry learn to deal with them, often enhancing policies and procedures to provide increased safety.

[exitseven]

There were over a thousand train derailment last year. Most never made the news. Still, each one has the potential to kill somebody.

[goaded]

There were Obama-era regulations in place to require better braking systems be installed on "high hazard cargo" trains by 2023. Trump's administration cancelled them.

This particular train might not have had to have had the upgrade (the chemicals on board weren't in that category, the requirement had been watered down by lobbyists for the train companies), but deregulation definitely has consequences.

fortune.com/.../

And, yes, Trump crowed about it at the time.

[AviatorTom]

@exitseven Of 5 million police-reported car accidents in the U. S. in 2020, there were 38,824 traffic-related deaths resulted from 35,766 fatal accidents. Trains are much safer than cars.

[exitseven]

yes, there are plenty of fatal car wrecks. Usually only one or two people die in these. A Train wreck can kill many people and like we just saw in Ohio cause millions in damages.

[monorprise]

@goaded
Rail road companies have no interest in losing trains nor subjecting themselfs to costly liability.
Regardless the problem here was not breaking but rather a Hot-box which is to say a broken axle.

Unfortunately with trains due to their sheer length, number of axles that can break, and confinement to a track this is been a problem since day.

One of the solutions they have implemented the track side Hot-box detectors which they are now pushing to expand, really is outdated, makes broad assumptions about the tecnoligy used in cars axle boxes and is difficult to maintain in large areas of the country where there is little to no power or communication infrastructure to support it.

[goaded]

@monorprise They will happily do so if ensuring safety is more expensive and they're not forced to do it.

The trains don't have to be as long as they are. I can't believe there's no way to retrofit a wagon with self-contained networked sensors to detect overheating and warn the driver (or even stop the train). It could probably even be powered by the movement of the wagon. The company in question apparently raved about how great the 21st century braking system (now over 20 years old) was, until there was a chance they'd have to pay for it. They (and others) got the regulations restricted to a subset of trains under Obama and then eliminated altogether under Trump.

[monorprise]

@goaded The efficiency of a train very much depends upon its length shorten the train and the train becomes and even less viable option for transportation. As it stands right now trains are only viable if they can be very long, otherwise your better off with cars and aircraft.

The only way you can tell something is wrong with your car is because you can feel and hear it riding on top of it. So short of sensors a train engineers has little no no way to know whats happening more than a few cars back.
As such they had to take very pro-active maintenance which naturally is subject to human error multiplied by diversity of tecnoligy and number of points of failure. This is why trains have suffered from this sort of problem since day 1.

To let the goverment command what is done will only inhibit the implementation of solutions. For example right now it will almost certantly result locking all the rail roads into the external hot-box detector solution which is a technology with major limits.

Said regulators would also inhibit any possible expansion of the rail roads for they like the politicians who command them would invariably be captured by the largest rail road companies themselfs and used to force schemes favorable to that company and inhibitory to any competition.

The simple truth is said companies are the only ones who would even pay attention to said regulators as such they would own them.

[goaded]

@monorprise It's strange that you don't seem to be able to conceive of a government being able to successfully regulate an industry. It seems a lot like how Russians not being able to conceive of a country where a vote cast actually does count.

Look outside the United States and you'll see government regulations keeping prices down and safety up all over the world.

[monorprise]

@goaded I am an American and I know of history of this country and even a little history of countries around the world.

While goverment in general is subject too corruption and mismanagement this problem only gets worse as you scale that goverment further from the people. As such for us it is not a question of whether or not the German Goverment can a just but rather our Federal goverment can, and we know from 200 years of experience that it won't.

I have been over this with you many times why that is, and i feel i must tell you again.
Our central goverment is thousands of miles from the eyes of any meaningful electorate.
The same electorate is very diverse in its Geographic, economic, political, and social needs and values invariably puting them into conflict on most issues.

Our Central Goverment has assumed responsibility for a large number of theses issues far too many of which dominate elections leaving minor things like rail roads nobody uses to be inquired most of the time.

When a politician is ignored by a majority of the electorate it means he is unaccountable, and can sell that issue to the highest bidder? Who is able and willing to pay the most directly or indirectly for control of regulations on any subject?
The biggest companies of course!
What are they going to pay the regulators to do? Make regulations that harm their competition and secure their market share.

That is exactly what happened, and has been happening for as long as the same goverment has assumed such power.

[goaded]

@monorprise You know you're saying you deserve the politicians you get, right?

Unlike Russia, your vote can make a difference. When was the last time you voted for someone who credibly committed to getting money out of politics or introduce legislation to at least level the playing field between individual donations and corporate funding? There must be at least a few candidates in your party of choice, surely?

There are many people who would be horrified at the idea of endangering people's lives in exchange for campaign funding. Vote for them. (Unless their name is probably George Santos, he's lying.)

[monorprise]

@goaded We do indeed deserve the corruption we get when we allow any organization to assume control over us in ways we cannot or will not reliably observe much-less be able cast our vote to hold them accountable.

People who want distant and big goverment absolutely deserve the corruption, dysfunction, and tyranny. Because they can never hold that goverment accountable for everything they allow it to control.

That you point out Russia a similarly large nation struggles with democracy in no small part for many of the same reasons. Russia is a large country with a diverse array of conflicting interests and cultures. Russia has always functioned as an empire like most large countries in human history. This is to say they have 1 core population in this case centered in its eastern Moscow region who dominates and imposes upon the others.

This arrangement of course makes it very difficult to maintain a democracy due to the odds of the alien minority factions taking advantage of division and ending up in control. So they like strongmen such as Putin who generally represent them and protect them from their enemies.

Regarding campaign financing and anti-corruption laws the problem is the enforceable and abusable of such laws. Its almost impossible to trace money, were this not the case nearly all forms of thief would not exist. So campaign financing laws really just shift around the money while giving the faction in control of enforcement a very dangerous advantage.

Hence the biggest problem with such financing and anti-corruption laws is what little enforcement that does exist invariably happens at the discretion and in the direction of the party in power who invariably favors using it against their rivals as to help insure they remain in power.

[goaded]

@monorprise "Russia a similarly large nation struggles with democracy in no small part for many of the same reasons"
No it doesn't. It has a democracy in name only because Putin is a dictator who has been fixing elections and killing his opponents and journalists who dare to tell the truth.

Hell, civilians are not even allowed to call his war a war or be put in prison. Russia basically hasn't changed since the before the revolution. Votes there have never counted except maybe once or twice after the fall of the USSR.

[monorprise]

@goaded said "a democracy in name only because Putin is a dictator who has been fixing elections and killing his opponents and journalists who dare to tell the truth."

There is a reason for this and why Russia has always been governed as it was. Why Russia finds ideas like Democracy soo difficult to adapt to.

[goaded]

@monorprise You're not going to tell me it's because Russia is like the USA, are you?

[monorprise]

@goaded Russia is older than the USA and this problem goes back to the very first empires.

The USA is by far among the most successful at dealing with it, due to a relative lack of initial cultural diversity, and a more cleverly designed system build with the knowledge of prior ones.

Whereas Russia is more of an older school empire dealing with controlling pre-existing cultural diversity on top of their vast geographic diversity.

[goaded]

@monorprise How is Russia older than the USA? Its current constitution dates from the 1990's, Soviet Russia from 1917 (iirc), prior to that it was a monarchy. OK, North America was settled from Russia, but that was something like 50,000 years ago.

Putin is currently displaying his approach to "cultural diversity" by trying to wipe out the Ukrainian people.

Are you claiming "cultural diversity" is what is harming the USA?

[monorprise]

@goaded Simple the goverment of Russia be it monarchy, communist, or some other kind of oligarchy it is today controlled since 1762. The originating imperial goverment started as "Grand Duchy of Moscow" around 1300.

[monorprise]

@goaded "Cultural diversity" is very much undermining the USA ability to operate as our politicians with it to, without said diversity we would have far more agreement on any particular policy they wanted to impose.

[goaded]

@monorprise So, Russia's form of government has only changed three times since a few years before the declaration of independence? And "cultural diversity" is the bane of the USA?

[monorprise]

@goaded I said Russia has had theses problems of an empire since the 1300s. I would agree it has operated as an empire under some form of oligarchy for nearly all that time.

As for cultural diversity I said one of the advantages the USA previously had in dealing with the same problems was our lack of cultural diversity. This enables us to better tolerate what our power hungry politicians invariably impose. Our system of divided and checked power, as well as our broad political, economic, and cultural history with more merchantmen based power rather than a traditional empire has been more important.

Althou the difference there is largely demonstrated in the difference between English speaking America and Latin America. Granted Latin America has made great efforts to mimic English speaking America politically and even culturally as has much of the world.

[goaded]

@monorprise Just concentrating on the USA: you say the "lack of cultural diversity" was an advantage for the USA. When are you thinking of? I mean, just until 1865?

Is that an example of something your "power hungry politicians" imposing (which was in fact the will of the people)?

Now, presumably, you think there's too much "cultural diversity". Why?

[exitseven]

Trains need to be inspected just like planes are. If you have ever seen a freight train it looks like most cars have not seen any maintenance since the Eisenhower administration.

[Dargil]

There is said to be a form of electric terrorism being conducted against railroads, which makes their monitors malfunction. A strategy for better controlling this should be developed.

[Anonymous]

Until you start looking at these chemical spills for what they really are... planned attacks against the population... then you won't understand why they continue to happen in increasing numbers. Or can you accidentally just happen to have a chemical spill that just so happens to form the exact chemicals used in World War II. Wake up...

[monorprise]

If that were the case they might have chosen to have their accident near a large city rather than a small town.

[Opinion Owner]

@monorprise That would be too obvious. Take a look at the number of similar incidents and you will see. There was also an explosion in a metal factory in Ohio as well. They don't need to target large cities because this stuff travels much further than they will ever admit.

[msc545]

Sorry, there is no evidence other than raw speculation that this is the case.

[monorprise]

So you think there is an conspiracy because an explosion happens in the place where you might expect to find an industrial accident and derailment happens where trains spent most of their time traveling largely rural country side.

If there is some kind of conspiracy here its been going on for hundreds of years un-betrayed by its key members.

A better conspiracy against the people would be simply encouraging them to use birth control, knowing how it effects male fishs and possibly male babies via the hormonal leaching into the water supply.

The people who might conspire to suppress the reports of said harm are mostly the people who think the population is too high and men are "toxic" anyway.

[Anonymous]

I think the Biden Administration has already reached a conclusion on that issue...

And that’s why Ukraine is getting a few more billion dollars. 👍

[Anonymous]

It's not just trains but the entire infrastructure of the country needs invested in, rebuilt and modernised. We can expect more of this.

[QuietRunner]

Adopt the Japanese system of train opertations

seems to work for them

[Pterodon]

Typical democrat response would be to ban trains all together

[Anonymous]

Wait. Isn't "build back better" taking care of that? 😆😆😆