Did you hear that Biden vetoed a Republican bill meant to force student loan paybacks?

[msc545]

President Joe Biden officially vetoed legislation Wednesday that would block his student loan forgiveness program, blasting lawmakers who supported the bill for what he called an “unprecedented attempt to deny critical relief to millions of their own constituents.” Biden stated "don’t forget, some of the same members of Congress who want to cut student aid personally received loans to keep their small businesses afloat during the pandemic.”

[richardcory]

The entire student loan program had problems because it was not coupled to limits on college tuition. The idea was great - giving young people a chance to go to college is an excellent goal. The problem is that universities act like for-profit companies, and the more loans that were available, the more they could increase their fees, requiring yet more loans.

Forgiveness programs were almost invertible as students found themselves saddled with impossible debt. Some were able to pay, but others - either though poor choices, or bad luck ended up unable to get jobs that would cover their debts. Of course forgiveness just adds to the endless spiraling of costs.

Its not an easy problem to fix. College is incredibly valuable. I went to school mostly on loans (paid back decades ago - but costs were much lower then ) and now decades later the contacts I made there (not to mention the education ) are why I have a high paying job now.

Maybe loans to particular universities and study programs could be tied to how many of their graduates manage to pay back their loans? But that is a very slow feedback as well

Its a difficult problem

[msc545]

You are mostly right about this. Predatory colleges with outrageous tuition and worthless degrees were established all over California where I live, and almost all have closed- leaving mountains of mostly unpaid debt in their wake.

[BoopBoopBeep]

Make college debt dischargeable under bankruptcy and the universities will have no choice but to police themselves.

[richardcory]

@BoopBoopBeep But the colleges don't carry the loans, the federal govt does. If the colleges were at risk they'd just take wealthy students who could pay - which was why the loan program started in the first place. It used to be that poor students had almost no chance of going to college

[BoopBoopBeep]

Right, the federal government should not carry the loan. That's my point. Colleges would take wealthy students and poor students going into STEM, because they don't actually care who you are or what you look like they care if you can pay them back. That'll weed out 90% of the gender studies degrees out there. Does that mean everybody can't go to college? Sure. Everybody doesn't need to go to college. I'm okay with that.

[msc545]

@BoopBoopBeep That is a good idea but it would get rid of all the predatory lenders too. We could make child support and alimony judgments dischargeable too, except women would never get married then.

[BoopBoopBeep]

@msc545 Haha then they can join the men.

[msc545]

Assuming there would be any wealthy students that would go to these places - there are a lot of very expensive diploma mills sadly.

[msc545]

@BoopBoopBeep exactly.

[richardcory]

The high end schools provide such a valuable product that there would be enough people paying to go. Its probably worth millions to go to Harvard or Princeton. Poor people would be locked out of those opportunities.

[BoopBoopBeep]

It isn't worth millions to go to Harvard. I work with three people who went to Harvard or Harvard Law. They all report to me now. Someone who incidentally turned down harvard because I got cheaper out of pocket elsewhere. Where's your return on investment if that had cost them a million dollars? You would have to make 50k/year more than your non-Harvard equivalent to arguably break even over a 20 year career. That's not factoring in opportunity cost of using that money somewhere wiser.

[richardcory]

@BoopBoopBeep I went to a well known school on a student loan (paid back decades ago). My current job, which pays embarassingly well was because of contacts from all those years ago. I've help other people I knew, (and knew were good) find jobs. Its easily been worth >>50K/year to me.

The education was valuable, but the contacts even more so. Its not corruption, at least not in a simple way. Its that when you know someone well and know that they are very good at what they do, it makes sense to recommend them of positions your company is hiring. Other people get lost in the sometimes hundreds of applications - most of them lies.

[BoopBoopBeep]

Okay but there simply aren't enough high-enough paying jobs out there for everyone to get slotted. You made it, good on you, and a sincere congrats there, but the three I work with didn't, and they're stuck lingering in jobs barely making 6 figures. At my last job I was the only one without a PhD or higher. I was also the supervisor over 12-15 people. So we have one that made it, you, and over a dozen that didn't. Did they not have the same opportunity to make these invaluable connections that you did?

[msc545]

Very well said, thanks!

[BoopBoopBeep]

Thanks buddy. Not to mention I have three friends who are NOT in tech/IT that are making 6 figures with a GED/HS diploma. Guess who has saved a LOT of retirement.

[richardcory]

@BoopBoopBeep I think you are describing the problem. There are not many high paying jobs and not many slots in top colleges. So colleges can charge very high tuition (several are above $55K/year now - add room an board and you are at a quarter million or more - and rising).

Without student loans, only the wealthy can go to those colleges and get the high paying jobs that let the send THEIR kids to college.

Its possible to succeed without connections but they really help.

[BoopBoopBeep]

You take out 2 million in loans to pay for your gender study degree what were you expecting to happen?

No such thing as too big to fail.

No such thing as debt relief

No such thing as eviction moratorium (I still have mortgages to pay in the interim)

Not in a just world.

The government runs like a well-oiled bag of gravel. They ought not be any more involved in personal finance than absolutely necessary.

[Soteris]

Student debt sounds like the posterchild of absolutely necessary though.

[BoopBoopBeep]

@Soteris No there's plenty of people w/o worthless degrees who have worthwhile jobs.

Philosophy of English lit ain't one of them.

[msc545]

Actually, unless someone is going into a profession like law or medicine or engineering, the actual subject matter of a degree may not matter as long as you have a BA or BS degree in almost anything. Plenty of companies just require a "4 year degree".

[BoopBoopBeep]

Yeah nobody ever asked me after the hiring process a) where i went to school b) what was my GPA or c) what's my degree in. Check the box as cheaply as possible.

I got a degree with no loans, my ex got a degree with 240k of loans. I make 100k more than her and work fewer hours. She's really educated though...

[msc545]

Exactly. Hardly anyone not in a profession goes beyond a 4-year degree.

[BoopBoopBeep]

Well to be fair she's an attorney so she did need the J. D., but "prestige" doesn't pay the mortgage.

[msc545]

So a lot of attorneys seem not to take the bar exam for some reason...

[BoopBoopBeep]

She was first time go on the NY bar, which is supposedly one of the harder ones. There seems to b a pattern of some of them never taking it because they dont' need it to teach, and they realized in law school that they aren't actually any good at it.

[BoopBoopBeep]

I hate that there's no way to edit a response here.

[msc545]

We all hate it and admins don't care.

[BoopBoopBeep]

Haha training for a role in politics then I see.

[Soteris]

I literally do not care what you consider to be worthless degrees or not, especially since you dont even know the purposes of them. Dont get me wrong, I would love it if schools just taught you things because you wanted to learn about something. But lets face it, that is not the society we live in. We live in a capitalist society, and that applies to schools as well.

Schools are there because corporations wants better workers. Every degree available for you to study only exists because somewhere there is a need for a corporation or a rich/powerful person to fill a position.

Of course, this says nothing about the actual number of students in each field since they may or may not crowd out the demand but that is besides the point. You are barking up the wrong tree, the people who create what you consider to be worthless degrees are employers who demand said skills.

[BoopBoopBeep]

@Soteris You cared enough to respond.

I do know the purpose of worthless degrees, to part a fool from his money. There's a need for somebody to pick up my dry cleaning. I get it. I don't need a corporation to "need" it I just need to convince you that you want it... like all other marketing in a capitalist society. But of course you know more than me. That must be why I know so many academics with shite degrees that literally could do nothing but teach their same shite degree to a new generation.

Tell yourself whatever you have to to sleep well at night buddy, but when the rocket ships blast off to save society from the impending comet there won't be a lot of seats saved for gender studies professors. Good news is they won't have to worry about that crippling student debt anymore.

And I'm not actually barking up any tree. I left college with no debt (thanks Army) and walked into a six figure job 3 years later. Maybe if I'd done History of Interpretive Dance in the Middle Ages I'd have gotten there sooner? Ya think? Anybody? Bueller? No? Nobody? Bummer.

[Soteris]

What a stupid logic. "Worthless degrees are for parting a fool from his money". Really? You actually think that? Like literally, what is the point of making a "fake" degree when you already have "non-fake" degrees? Surely it would just be cheaper and easier if you streamlined the process and had as few degrees as possible available?

Also yes, I do know more than you. That is what happens when you have an interest in learning new things. I also find it hilarious that you have mentioned "Philosophy of English" as a useless degree and then referenced marketing as if they were not directly related. Also, if you are going to send off colonist from a doomed earth then there is going to be a hell of a lot of social science degrees among them.

The biggest obstacle in rebuilding society from a small number of people is not bringing enough guys who can lay a brick wall but people who can keep society together and not devolve into chaos. A gender studies degree or two would DEFINITELY be aboard.

But I digress. The fact still remains that it is the demand of employers that controls what degrees students have to choose from. Furthermore, you literally just admitted to receiving a government handout to clear your student debt, that is exactly what the Army is doing you dufus.

[BoopBoopBeep]

@Soteris Actually I said Philosophy of English Lit (erature). At least quote me properly.

There WILL be social science people on that space ship, to be sure, but not the gender studies ones ;)

It's funny, in all the developing nations I've been to, we DID have the brick layers out there... we never had the gender studies people, so maybe you're not as accurate as you think you are. I'm sure they have some nice quirks. I don't know, there aren't a lot of them at my MENSA meetings.

What employers are demanding the gender studies degrees that you keep talking about?

I didn't get a handout. It was transactional. I gave them three years they gave me college. That's like saying your employer giving you a paycheck is a handout. Wait do you know what a paycheck is? Try harder.

[Soteris]

Yes I know you said philosophy of English literature and yes I do mean that is useful in marketing.

Also, yes you are going to need a few gender studies. You are aiming to rebuild society which also includes both sex, gender roles and gender psychology etc.. All things that might result in major issues without experts.

I also find it hilarious that you use developing nations as an example of what you imagine a colony to be like. Especially since it is supposed to be a GOOD example of human society and I bet you are not super impressed by the culture and society in most developing nations even if they might have awesome brick walls.

I also find it hilarious that you are bringing up mensa as if that matters for shit. IQ is not a good measurement for intelligence so its just a club for pretentious assholes.

As for what employers are demanding gender studies degree? Mostly law firms looking for lawyers and governments wanting social workers.

Also, your deal with the military is not transactional. It was a government handout. You already got paid a salary for your service, additional benefits are just that, benefits. They are not transactional.

[BoopBoopBeep]

@Soteris Bless your heart.

[Soteris]

Please dont. It would be a shame if I ended up in the Christian version of heaven. can't imagine a worse place, even hell would be literally infinitely preferable.

[msc545]

@Soteris Since you think IQ is not a good measure of intelligence, what do you think is a good measure?

Also, do you have any idea how little infantrymen get paid and how much risk they take?

[Soteris]

If you find out a way to accurately calculate "intelligence", or even necessarily define what that is in the first place then you would probably become a very rich person. We have more or less no idea what "intelligence" actually is if you have not realized that already outside of the broadest of strokes.

Surprise surprise, its hard to put a number on something that so far is just an abstract concept.

I also dont particularly care how much or how little your country is willing to screw over their own servicemen. What is your opinion of a minimum wage?

[normalice]

I wonder if part of the debt ceiling deal was that republicans had to start pushing their policies instead of distracting with culture wars. This was such a performative thing. House republicans got to look like they were serious about making educated people forfeit their marginally higher salaries to validate their base's insecure notion that the smart thing was to not get educated. Senate democrats got to show they are happy to bring legislation they disagree with to the floor and even have a bipartisan coalition within their own party. And Biden got to look like he single handedly fulfilled another campaign promise. All based on headlines with nothing actually changing.

[kuffs]

Student loan forgiveness is a slap in the face to those who paid their loans back the right way.
Forcing the American people to pay THEIR loan that THEY took the classes on is not fair. It’s buying votes. I didn’t take any classes, I don’t have the degrees to get me more money. But they have the degrees that earn them more money and no bill. Its bullcrap.
How would they feel if the government took my mortgage payments away from me and made you pay for my house instead of me? I say here but you eat the bill.

[msc545]

You would do better to whine about all the OTHER ways you are being ripped off - military spending of your tax money for instance - 858 billion this year to defense contractors for unneeded crap that doesn't work well.

[kuffs]

Well as the military protects America and other countries that are not so well off. Who says it doesn’t work? CNN? Cause their always right. Someone getting a degee doesn’t help me at all. I will stick with my statement.

[msc545]

Protects America against whom and what, and at what cost?

[LiamJHayden]

My biggest issue with the student loan system is that it was almost completely removed from elimination through bankruptcy. Same with credit card debt. It seems insane to me that someone can borrow $10M+ for a venture and BK the debt away when it fails, but some 18-year-old kid who was never taught about how compound interest works can suffer for decades or even life because of succumbing to the pressure of those with a vesting interest in conning them.

[exitseven]

He is pandering for votes. I heard there is enough bi partisan support to override the veto. Bailing out a group that went into a business arrangement without any coercion and agreed to the terms of the loan because they are having trouble paying it back because their degree in woman's studies isn't worth the paper it is printed on.

[msc545]

The coercion was the state of the economy at that time. The same coercion that compels men to enlist in the service and go off to fight meaningless but deadly wars to enrich people who are already too rich.

[exitseven]

No excuse. What about people who invested in stocks during the Trump economy when the stock market was booming and all of a sudden when Biden gets into office they saw their investments disappear overnight, How can they get a bailout? Why favor one group over another?

[Agape93]

Lol good. It doesn't even affect me but the schadenfreude is lovely

[Anonymous]

If Biden really wanted to solve this issue, he should get rid of student loans entirely.

Once these colleges realize that not as many people can afford college anymore, they will probably lower the price. If not, well at least you can learn most of the things you can get degrees on online anyway.

[Emelina]

I don't keep tabs on the USA politics bc it doesn't effect me or my kids. Lol.

[Anonymous]

I believe Biden will do all things, whether it's to help the American people or hurt the American people. Why would he veto a bill forced to payback student loans, if anything the American people needs help paying the student loans off. SMH?

[msc545]

you seem not to understand this. Biden vetoed a bill that would have PREVENTED the cancellation of student loan debt and therefore forced the loans to be paid back. Got it now?

[Anonymous]

Buying votes, still a bargain compared to the costs of the Ukrainian situation and hunters habits

[AngryCarl2]

No I didn't hear that. Did you hear Trump got arrested again?

[msc545]

He got indicted. The arrest comes next week.