Was this OK to refuse?

[msc545]

A man collapsed while swing-dancing with friends in Golden Gate Park Sunday, a fellow dancer raced to the nearby de Young Museum in search of a defibrillator. Museum officials refused to allow the defirrillator out of the building.

The man died.

Was the refusal reasonable?

[BoopBoopBeep]

Legally, probably, but it depends on the jurisdiction. Morally, pretty reprehensible.

That said, it's not the movies, defibrillation rarely works in real life and it's only valid for... here it comes... ventricular fibrillation. If the dancer died from tachycardia (common) or bradycardia, or any type of blockage it's not going to actually do anything. Anything muscular/mechanical that caused heart failure, if that's even what he died from (could have been pulmonary embolism, I don't know) would be unaffected by a defib as all that is intended to do is realign the electrical activity. In the case of SCA (sudden cardiac arrest), this particular flat line MAY be restarted with a defib just like me slapping you across the face MAY get you to snap out of a panic attack, but that's an added bonus. The automated ones won't even shock if they don't detect the proper rhythm, because if you shock someone who went down for bradycardia you'll likely stop their heart completely.

When I was running through vfibs, tachs and skipped beats pretty regularly for three days I asked a lot of questions of the cardiac staff because I wanted to know everything I could about the particular way I was dying. Learned a lot. Hope nobody ever has to learn that way.

[msc545]

A good summary of the limitations of defibrillators.

[BoopBoopBeep]

Thing is, still though, the guy that said "no" didn't know what the person was going through. An outside chance of being saved is still a chance, and it's beyond "jerk move" level to say no. I get whoever it was that was talking about the liability of the establishment, but I promise if I'm going somewhere and "asking" for my loved one who just collapsed, I'm not so much asking... if you get my drift, and if you waste time I'm going to get creative and going to jail don't scare me a whole lot in this country, especially when the stakes are that high.

Flipside, they're only like a grand (an AED). Are you going to risk the PR nightmare on the off chance he doesn't bring it back? Send an employee with him... whatever... priorities are off on this one.

[msc545]

The person asking for it asked an employee of the Museum who then asked his supervisor who said "No". The museum people may or may not have been aware of the gravity of the situation...

[msc545]

That said, I would conclude that anyone asking for such equipment NEEDS IT and I would give it to them and help them as well - urgently!

[BoopBoopBeep]

Yeah... I'd probably go with them/send someone to make sure they aren't just stealing it, but as an employee of the museum... not my money either way. I'm not letting someone die because something that is a rounding error in the budget of a museum is needed elsewhere.

[msc545]

Exactly.

[NathanDavis]

I'm not a doctor... so I don't know if it would have been okay or not okay to just give a defibrillator to anybody just like that

I'm not a lawyer... so I don't know if it would have been legally viable to risk a tremendous lawsuit or even face any criminal charges, I just don't know about which laws are in place regarding all of this

and then you have the morals... which are always easy to say and throw around as words, that is simple... but when it comes to real, actual, difficult situations happening in real time it becomes all much more complicated and I wasn't there either, I don't know how things actually happened or what else could have been done by many

but I am wondering something... why such a big ass park does not have their own emergency station/services available to their visitors... if the museum has it, why don't all other venues have one as well I think that's not okay and something can be done about it

lawsuits just suck... in other countries or maybe other states, people would not even touch that man on the floor just to avoid a lawsuit and that's not okay either

[msc545]

This device is designed to be used by almost anyone, and most states have good Samaritan laws such that if you try to help in good faith and it goes wrong, you are not liable. This happened in San Francisco, and California where I live definitely has such a law.

[NathanDavis]

you might not be liable as an individual on the street...

but this wasn't a street, this was a museum, and that was an employee...

and you said it yourself "by almost anyone" does not, in any way, means absolutely anyone and in any circumstance, no

which, legally... makes you liable to the very fine print and the implications of the law that is usually open to interpretations

[NathanDavis]

the devil is always in the details, and that sucks... that's not okay

[msc545]

It was in a park, not in the museum, and you would literally have to be deaf and blind to not be able to follow the instructions that are provided in writing and audible. The law means you *cannot* be sued at all. It has been tested many times.

[NathanDavis]

the defibrillator and the employee are inside the museum... not outside at the park

also, you're a doctor... you should know way better than most that NOT everyone is able to properly and correctly follow instructions

the law has been twisted so many times... it has been done some many times, this is America lol

[msc545]

The defibrillator is portable. The woman dancing with him asked the museum employee to borrow it after he collapsed. Even if someone messes up the instructions it simply will not work - you cannot hurt anyone with it.

[NathanDavis]

are you able to accurately and properly evaluate and decide if a person that collapses needs or does not need a defibrillator? and then whether it will actually help them or make things worse?

I surely am not, not even close...

I would leave that decision to a professional, a paramedic at least...

[msc545]

This is a very smart device - it will not do anything unless it detects an abnormal rhythm it can correct. Nobody has ever been injured by one.

[NathanDavis]

are you implying that a device is 100% safe and will never able fail?

absolutely fail proof? what kind of guarantee is that?

just because nobody has been injured by one yet... that's not a guarantee that it could happen or that everyone will use it correctly, especially somebody that has never used one before

[msc545]

Do you drive on public roads or fly in airplanes?

[NathanDavis]

no... the drivers and the pilots do that

I'm merely a passenger

[msc545]

When you were a passenger in a car or plane that does not protect you from crashes. Just because you're not operating, it doesn't mean you can't get hurt. So there is a non-zero chance every time you get in a plane or a car that you may it killed or badly injured yet you do it anyway. On the other hand, if I understand this correctly, you might not be willing to borrow or use an automatic defibrillator to save someone's life for some fear of getting sued. Do you really think having to live with the idea that you could have saved somebody and instead just let them die is worth it?

[NathanDavis]

@msc545 I think it would be worth to point out something

this is not about what I would personally do, no... we are not judging my morals or my stance on what I would do, I wasn't there

now, your choice of a simile is just ridiculous, lol... so I will fix it a bit... you talk about the probability of getting killed while you fly or drive, well yeah... chances are always there but the few things that are under my control is all I can do, I would very much rather get into a more modern car that has seatbelts and airbags for passengers and all kinds of drive-assistance controls... and I would prefer to flight with an airline that has pilots who are not overworked or allowed to fly while drunk, because yes, that could lower the chances of running into trouble

and then no, you did not understand correctly... I never said I would never use a defibrillator because I am afraid of getting sued, no... if you had asked me personally, what I would do myself, to me it would have been very simple, if I was absolutely certain that a person needed a defibrillator, and that a venue nearby has one, I would go and get that defibrillator? would the employees at the museum try to stop me? maybe so... but I would still try to get it, I would not ask them for permission I would just get that thing because I know it is needed to save a life and if there's a lawsuit coming against me or charges so be it, I would not care because for me, the life of someone I know is above money

[NathanDavis]

@msc545
as for your last question, that is also the wrong question... you asked me "if you knew you could have saved a life" and this exactly my point... I do NOT KNOW, and you don't know either... we are not cardiologists as far as I know, I do not have the medical backgrounds to be able to assess if a person has the exact thing that can be solved by and only by a defibrillator

so, again I DO NOT KNOW... and, whatever I think of the actions of others do not have to reflect how I would act myself, because the context and circumstances would be very different from one another

[msc545]

Ok, nitpick all you want. "You might have saved a life"

[NathanDavis]

I don't dwell on the what if... especially when it didn't happen at all

as a doctor yourself... you might have saved a life, but you could also have ruined many other lives

and then you come to this site and tell people that you won't risk it on getting too involved, right?

because, that's not ethical... and it could be very much at risk of liability, or a guilty conscience

[msc545]

So you finally resort to personal attacks; I was wondering how long it would take you to do that. The implications for you speak for themselves.

[NathanDavis]

it is not a personal attack...

you said something about me... that actually applies to you

if you feel attacked by the thing I pointed out then don't say the same thing about me

[NathanDavis]

also, the one thing I said about you... it is the one thin you describe in your profile at this site

[msc545]

Let it go. I am weary of your nitpicking.

[LaFemmeFatale_1]

I think human life is far more important than whatever rule they have…

How could they stand and watch someone dying when they could help?

I don’t understand how it’s possible to have such disregard to the life of another human being, someone loves him, he loves someone,

They stand there and watch someone’s brother, father, son or husband dying and do nothing?

I don’t understand…

Those people will be quick to judge others for every little mistake they make, while they failed to protect the sweetest thing a person has - life.

It could be them next time, or their family. Wouldn’t they want to be helped?

I find it very hard to imagine, that people are so heartless.

I think of myself as heartless sometimes but then I read things that surprise me.

[msc545]

Welcome to the United States where money is more important than life.

[Daniela1982]

With thefts gone viral, someone may wonder if they were intent on stealing an expensive piece of equipment. My question is why did these dummies waste time trying to get a defibrillator instead of performing CPR, especially when there were a lot of people there to do it? How did they know the museum even had one? Something doesn't sound right here. I can't believe they didn't have medical people there at a venue like that.

[msc545]

I didn't really want to quote the whole article but they did CPR but unfortunately even when it's done right it only works about 10% of the time. I'm not sure why they believed that a defibrillator would help, but I think at that point they would try anything that wasn't overly harmful to help that man.

[msc545]

Any life has the same value as any other life.

[Daniela1982]

Exactly! So why are you worried about one and not about many?

[msc545]

I can be concerned about whatever I feel like being concerned about without your approval. I don't much care what you think about what I think.

[msc545]

You've obviously never been there. This is a very large public park and there are no medical staff there and never have been. If people are actually holding an event there that is of any size. Then they usually bring their own medical people. The event in question was just a small dance that occurs all the time and that nobody feels the need to have medical staff at. Also, that park is in the middle of San Francisco and there are medical facilities almost within walking distance which were not enough to save this man unfortunately.

[GoodGuyBreakingBad]

This is inhumane to administer help.

[Daniela1982]

@goodguybreakingbad Inhumane "To" administer help, or "not to" administer help?

[lightbulb27]

Wow... I'd say no.

It's easy to deny in some crazy scenarios, ya don't know whom to trust. But this is safety and security, that should be universal to people. If that was any of us, we'd want that defib.

If that was D Trump, J Biden, or B Clintons kid, better dang well expect that fib to be let go.

They made a bad decision from my viewpoint. But what is their reason... those things can be used to kill people and do harm. If not trained, can do damage. That means lawyers and lawsuits... and nobody wants sued. So that be my guess why it was held back. Thus I blame the death on the root cause... idiots that sue people whom try to do right to take their $.

[exitseven]

The refusal was legal but was not reasonable. The way things are today drug addicts could scam somebody out of a defibrillator and sell it on the street for a quick couple hundred bucks. It sucks that this is what society has become.

You see muggings all the time where instead of calling the cops people are taking videos to try and sell to local TV stations.

[whirled_up_girl]

I don’t understand what they’re reason for refusing the use but it seems pretty terrible. You mentioned good samaritain laws in another comment which is true. I have training in CPR and AED use but I never would have thought I would need to present my certification card. What a sad story.

[Astarlessnightsky]

No, refusing to provide aid and help someone in a medical emergency is even considered crime in germany.

[JesseP1nk]

Here those Museum officials would go to court and if found guilty can face 3 years in jail.

§ 124. Refusal to provide assistance
(1) Knowing refusal to provide assistance to a person who is in a life-threatening situation due to an accident or general danger, although such assistance could be provided without endangering the person providing assistance,
is punishable by a pecuniary punishment or up to three years’ imprisonment.

[Andres77]

On the surface, no. Given how often a defibrillator is in demand and noting the urgency…it should have been utilized

[boggboss]

Moraly yes it was wrong but the reasons why are probobly coprate with it not being the choice of any individual but policy for the museum unfortunately

[boobliker]

very questsioable if you ask me as a defirrillator any one who may need it

[Fireguy17]

No, if they were worried about it then just go with them.
I don't think they are worth a lot on market place.

[RealMarek]

This is sad. It’s not okay. Of course they probably have a policy out of fear it would be stolen.

[On_cloud_wine]

That’s horrible. Stupid mankind.