What do you think of this quote from President John Adams?

[exitseven]

John Adams said, “Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”

Is John Adams right?

Maybe this is why America is on the ropes right now. We do not have a moral population anymore. We have rioters and looters. Mass murderers and cheaters. Nobody takes responsibility for their own actions.

TRUMP 2024

[RealMarek]

Adams was, in my opinion, the most perceptive and realistic of the founding fathers. Interestingly, he became more liberal and idealistic in his later years as he was influenced by the emergence of universalism in New England at that point. As for this opinion, Adams was recognizing that the American system did not appear out of nowhere, but in the context of English culture and a population that was extremely self-disciplined due to their religious training and observance. The revolution came about, in part, as an effort by colonial elites to recover what they thought of as their rights as Englishmen - rights that evolved in England due to the self-discipline of the people and the high level of social trust that came about from it. It was as close to libertarianism as anything the world has seen. His hunch was that if religious discipline was lost, chaos would gradually increase, the level of mutual trust would decrease, and government would have to wield a much heavier hand than the founders desired. This is, in fact, exactly what we have seen.

This is not to say that everyone needs religion to live in a disciplined and productive manner, but the reality is something like 80-90% of people will either have their values inculcated into them as a system of belief or, failing this, will eventually descend into chaos. This brings to mind Neuhaus’ Law: “Where orthodoxy is optional, orthodoxy will sooner or later be proscribed.” We see this now in the form of intersectionality (“wokery”) - the heretical form of Calvinism without God that is the current elite’s desired replacement for Christianity. Orthodoxy became optional and now a new orthodoxy is being proscribed. It is, of course, so defective that it will not succeed in preserving a well ordered society, but that’s not the point. The point is that the vast majority of people need moral guidance and the elites, to the extent that they have power, will always seek to provide it. If the guidance is flawed or the masses are left to determine their own morality, the result is barbarism such that the system of government designed by the founders would be unable to function. In my opinion, Adams was correct.

[JacobJordan]

that quote is very very accurate. Our system works great for peoples with morals. but it works even better for those without morals. those willing to screw over everyone else to get ahead.

[exitseven]

@jacobjordan That is what we are seeing now. It is not sustainable.

[jennifer_bloom]

I believe morality is has two qualities - one is the binary legal structure of good and evil - beneath that is the passive and quietly inclusive emotional structure of compassion and empathy. Many people are so fixated on the procedure of humanity they have forgotten the humanity behind the procedures of humanity. This is why people are upset with the conservatives, it's not because they support homosexuality or abortion, its because they believe society should not prematurely exclude those that have not forfeited their right to opportunity by any ill action in themselves and that we should be judged on an individual merit by merit basis and not on a collective persuasion basis. Because the compassion of social procedures must exceed the procedures themselves.

[sage2021]

Maybe we should have a John Adams rememberence day?

[exitseven]

Yes but I am abigger fan of Thomas Jefferson

[OlderAndWiser]

I think the old guys understood politics real well!

[Lliam]

Here's from Thomas Jefferson to Richard Price

"...I concur with you strictly in your opinion of the comparative merits of atheism & demonism, and really see nothing but the latter in the being worshipped by many who think themselves Christians. Your opinions and writings will have effect in bringing others to reason on this subject. Our new constitution, of which you speak also, has succeeded beyond what I apprehended it would have done. I did not at first believe that 11. states of 13. would have consented to a plan consolidating them as much into one. a change in their dispositions, which had taken place since I left them, had rendered this consolidation necessary, that is to say, had called for a federal government which could walk upon it's own legs, without leaning for support on the state legislatures. A sense of this necessity, & a submission to it, is to me a new and consolatory proof that wherever the people are well informed they can be trusted with their own government; that whenever things get so far wrong as to attract their notice, they may be relied on to set them to rights. you say you are not sufficiently informed about the nature & circumstances of the present struggle here. having been on the spot from it's first."

And another quote attributed to Jefferson: "An educated citizenry is a vital requisite for our survival as a free people."

"When the people fear the government, tyranny has found victory. The federal government is our servant, not our master!" - George Washington?

I think we have two main problems today.
1. The government and media work to keep people uninformed, fearful and divided. They spread lies and disinformation to prevent people from governing the government and its monied masters.
And our educational system is woefully inadequate.

2. At the time of our nation's founding, there was little police presence and no standing army. So people relied upon each other to keep the peace. A swindler, thief, bandit or murderer wouldn't be tolerated by honest people.
Today, the government has the sole power to apprehend criminals and bring them to justice. The People have no power to keep the peace. And the government engages in more criminal activity than do outlaws.

Also, I don't think people need to be religious to be moral. Conversely, religious people commit all kinds of immoral acts.

[Agagagagaga]

No, people don’t need to be religious to be moral, so where does their moral instruction come from?

Do most Americans have civics in school? Ethics? What philosophical instruction are they given? To whom do they look to for guidance and moral education?

Their parents? Really? In a country full of divorce, single parent homes, and latch key kids with absent parents who are at work, driving to work, or coming home from work? And how much time does mom or dad really spend with their kid TEACHING them?

C’mon man. You act as though people all have Aesop or Uncle Remus to impart wisdom to the youth. Or to people.

We don’t have that anymore.

And we haven’t had it for decades.

[Agagagagaga]

If we did, people wouldn’t be craving moral guidance or instruction from people like Jordan Peterson. 🙄

You’ve got to get your ethics and your morals from somewhere. But with the shrinkig family, fewer extended family relatives, working parents, and kids distracted with smartphones and video games, they really aren’t learning much.

Is there some television programming or some Netflix special that gives moral instruction that j don’t know about? I mean obviously people have to be getting their morals from SOMEWHERE even without religion, right?

I’m sure we can trust the public schools and Hollywood to provide our moral education. God knows people don’t read books anymore. But do you really think that Black Panther is going to teach someone how to be a better person?

No, religion isn’t necessary for moral instruction, but in our completely amoral society, no one else is taking up the charge. If anything we are told that morals are relative. Subjective. They change with the times and social “progress.” What was once immoral and degenerate is just another opinion or kink.

Look, I wish everyone spent their time reading Aristotle, Plato, and pontificating on John Locke and Rousseau. They don’t. And their parents are absent, their grandparents dead or gone, and their schools completely politically captured. Let’s just hope that some magical person learns ethics and morality from watching Game of Thrones.

🙄

[Lliam]

@Agagagagaga. What do you suggest, religion?

My point was similar to yours. We have been deliberately kept in the dark and dumbed down by people who want to control us.

I think we need free access to information, not just government approved information, and not just information that we are fed by corporations. And we need full freedom of speech for the free exchange of knowledge and ideas.

We do need good role models. For example, there were TV shows for families and children in the 1960s that taught good values. Off the top of my head, I'm thinking of The Rifleman, Bonanza, The Andy Griffith Show, Leave it to Beaver, and many others.

[exitseven]

Yes, We need more MeTV.

[Agagagagaga]

I’m completely with you on role models on tv. When I was a kid I was watching the Lone Ranger and the Rifleman. Stuff like that. They had strong father figures who provided moral guidance. I remember there was a hole episode on The Andy Griffith show where Opie is playing with a slingshot and he accidentally kills a bird in her nest. He feels guilty and bad about it, and Andy his father tells him that it is now his responsibility to care for the baby birds since he killed their mother. You won’t get that on any shows today.

Frankly, I wish everyone grew up reading ethics. People should be reading the Nicomachean Ethics by Aristotle, or reading Marcus Aurelius or Thomas Paine. John Locke. Hobbes. John Stuart Mill.

Unfortunately this body of moral and ethical instruction is left only to the University (as if people only have need of ethics in a college class).

I don’t know. I just feel that there is a giant hole that has been left in people. At least in the last people made themselves or their kids go to church. It isn’t the only thing for moral instruction or guidance, but it’s better than nothing. And at leas social convention in generations past urged and encouraged church attendance.

If we don’t have God or the church, we need philosophical works and instruction, and if we don’t get that through literature, self-study, reflection, and personal instruction, all that is left is mass media. Television and Netflix.

Bring back The Rifleman. He’ll sort things out. LoL

[lightbulb27]

that sounds spot on right. the idea of "immoral" people having gun rights is a bad one. immoral people following a code of civility, doesn't make sense either.

separation of church and state doesn't mean removal of church. The church used to be schools, medical, who knows what else. we've replaced that with teh corporation... and we know they are immoral as they serve money... or the love of money... mammon.

Even the govt fell prey to "gold is your currency".. e. g. ya can't print it, it's rare and that limits govts ability to create and fund wars. We'll, we corrupted money with printing press and now govt poisons everything it touches, wheather for good intentions or not.

So yea, we are screwed...

This why a lot of peope are saying "Scotty... beam me up".

The religious peoples version is "Jesus is Coming"...

[Daniela1982]

@lightbulb27 When a billion or more people disappear off the face of the Earth, it will not be "Jesus is coming", it will be "Jesus was just here and you got left behind." 😴😴

[PositiveFlight]

I wholeheartedly agree with John Adams. He is absolutely spot on and I would concur with your assessment that this is why America is falling apart right now. America and any other nation that has ever stood on this ground within the new world has never survived but rather has been wiped off the face of this ground if they do not remain a moral nation. This land is meant to be the land of liberty and freedom but it cannot be the case so long as there is not morality and adherence to God to accompany it.

[PositiveFlight]

I might add, God is the author of liberty

[RavVid]

Not a US citizen but I think this applies very broadly across the West. I'm not convinced on the religious side or even on the moral side.

Constitutions require wide acceptance that these are the rules and it is the way it works and will always work. A relatively small percentage thinking No, not if we have molotov cocktails can destroy it.

I think that is what John Adams was getting at but I am not familiar with him and the Federalist papers.

[exitseven]

Yes, it only takes a very small percentage of the population to cause the wheels to fall off the wagon.

[RavVid]

Exactly! John Adams knew about 1776. As an American do you think that was what he was meaning?

On the other hand the US constitution survived the Civil War so that is evidence against his proposition.

[BCA6010]

That's a big part of it. Furthermore, a limited government relies on the population overwhelmingly sharing similar values, which we no longer do. This can be most broadly and easily explained by pointing out that modern American culture has shifted away from families and towards individuals, which has directly led to many problems from rampant narcissism and celebrity worship to unsustainably low birth rates and weak or broken family units.

[abc3643]

I think he's wrong to a large extent.

The very fact that the Constitution is still in effect after almost 235 years is a testament that the Founding Fathers had the foresight to acknowledge the darker side of human nature when they wrote it and thus attempted to limit the dark side.

The fact that they were NOT perfect establishing those limits is perhaps because there was some truth to what Adams said. They were men of a time when manners and decorum meant quite a bit and more so than to the general American populations of today. A guy like Trump would be ostracized by them. In their day, there may have been others like Trump, but they would generally not be considered good company and, so not often being around such people, the Founding Fathers didn't have in mind that such a person would even be successful in politics. In short, they DID make assumptions about civility in government and would likely be a bit surprised at what has happened since.

[Juxtapose]

He's right, the more freedom people have the more they need to self-regulate.

All these worshippers of thugs and thugs themselves will never be able to properly self-regulate. Look at how they self segregate based on race in prison and even engage in homosexual rape because they have so little control over their urges.

[Jersey2]

I think there is truth there but our country has always had periods of upheaval. We do have a lot of people who vote stupidly and then blame others for the bad results. They won’t learn until the country is in ashes but there will be no phoenix rebirth as fallen super powers do not regain their position in the world.

[AviatorTom]

John Adams was an intelligent person... with strong morals. Who else would have defended the British soldiers accused or murdering colonist?

[jimmy2]

America was built on Judeao Christian values and we Lost our love for God
I believe it is God's will for Biden and demcorate run this country into the ground

[FunkyMonkee]

https://www.youtube.com/embed/Hclq5ksnOEY

Well?

[exitseven]

Elmer Fudd is a big supporter of the second amandment.

[FunkyMonkee]

Sure is! Hardly ever seen without a gun except when he was still Egghead.

[Jamie05rhs]

I agree. He's 100% right.

[Miristheiss]

Agree.