Should GAS STOVES be banned... US VP has one?

[AviatorTom]

In the US, President Joe Biden and his administration are planning on a ban of stoves powered by natural gas. The argument is that they leave bad things in the air when operating, disproportionately affect people of color, and is not part of their push for electric power to reduce effects on climate change.

If you look carefully at the picture of Vice President Kamala Harris and her husband with their Thanksgiving preparations (posted on X), you might notice a gas stove in the background. Several politicians have questioned if this is appropriate, considering the potential ban on gas stoves.

What do you think?

[Soteris]

I dont think its a particularly bad idea to ban gas in most circumstances. We quite frankly have progressed past it technologically so there is no real need for them and they are bad for the health as you mentioned. Of course, its going to take a while to replace them all over the US so there really is no real pressure to accomplish it in the near term nor any problem for people (even the VP) to have them currently.

Its an aspirational goal and should be seen as that rather than a crime that we should prosecute people for.

[DubiousIntentions]

Where are you planning on getting all this electricity to power everything like electric cars and everything else electric? With rolling blackouts and lines down after every big storm, someone won't be eating. At least with gas you can still cook a dinner.

[Soteris]

@DubiousIntentions What you are basically saying is that American infrastructure sucks and needs to be rebuilt, because this is a problem that other countries have already solved. The solution sounds pretty simple to me though. You simply invest a bunch of government money to create more well paying jobs and then rebuild USA's failing electrical infrastructure and everyone wins.

I mean seriously, what is going on in Texas? Why do they KEEP having blackouts?

Lastly, its much easier to have electric stoves during a blackout than gas. More specifically, you dont have a gas extraction facility in your back yard but getting a generator/solar panel or whatever is entirely feasible.

[love_conquers_lust]

@Soteris. US electrical infrastructure in it’s current state is undersized to replace fossil fuels with electric. If it were failing, I wouldn’t be able to criticize you right now.

How do you propose powering this generator? Fossil fuel? How do you propose to power solar panels in the middle of a winter storm? Battery banks are the only way that works. They don’t have higher energy densities than hydrocarbon fuels.

Texas had rolling blackouts because winter storms are not typical in that region. Vehicles in the south aren’t rated for winter conditions. As a result, upstream well heads couldn’t be accessed by serviceman when they froze up reducing refinery throughput to produce natural gas, thus reducing power plant throughput. Climate change may have contributed.

If the government wants to research things using tax payer funded dollars, fine. But then governments has no standing complaining about private donations coming from companies going toward universities to fund their own research. They also shouldn’t complain when the government gets defunded with money that wasn’t theirs to begin with. Liberal democracy.

There’s no need to throw a bunch of government money at privately maintained power infrastructure owned by power companies. It behooves them to maintain lines. There’s also no need to subsidize renewable energies. Mixed market economics will bring renewables into the fold.

Give the full story.

[Tanisha69]

No it not. Its stupid and they should never be banned

[Soteris]

@love_conquers_lust Alright, you want the full story?

We have been warned for literally decades that climate change was coming and that it would have serious consequences for our society at every level. For example:
https://history.aip.org/climate/public2.htm#S1988

People whos job it is to foresee future problems that threatens their country, such as in USA you have NASA and Department of Defense, have been warning about climate change and the need to prepare as a matter of critical national security.

The fact that you are here trying to defend gas stoves by saying the US electrical grid is undersized and to challenge me to find an energy source is not a problem with my argument but a problem of yours. You are correct, this is not something that is quick to address which is why you should have done this literally decades ago.

None of this is a surprise to anyone. The fact that your energy grid can't support the energy requirements required to phase out fossil fuels IS already a failure. Your government failed to take action. Capitalism AKA private companies refused to take action as well. Even with the disaster obviously approaching you all chose to do nothing to prepare yourself for it.

How would I fix it? Easy really, just do it piece by piece. For example the gas stove ban in New York only targets new houses and only in a few years. That is entirely manageable. As for what source of energy to replace it with? Sweden has a mixture of Hydro and nuclear. Its as good as any.

[Soteris]

@Tanisha69 Why? Is there a reason to keep gas stoves?

[love_conquers_lust]

@Soteris Our country is roughly the size of Europe and services far more people than Sweden. Sweden is the equivalent to a state to us.

You don't seem to understand that renewables are a large share of US produced energy and it's still growing. It will continue to grow as oil gets more expensive. That's why I said it's not necessary to outlaw stoves. That is such a dumb idea it defies common sense. Mixed market economy.

What disaster? I mean really. Economics is a shitty fallback for preventing future problems. But overcorrecting can also cause it's own problems when our government tries to intervene in free markets. They're useful for enforcing rules, not as an active participant.

We're not Sweden. We have different demographics than you AND it DOES matter, I don't care how horrible that sounds. Our government is very divided because of it.

I know your government is actively trying to deport refugees you once welcomed with open arms. I also know when Nordic countries helped draft ICERD, their demographics were pretty much homogenized. That's probably why you are more trusting of your government than we are of ours.

US Citizens are all American, but we disagree on what the American Dream is. One of the most American things that can be said is "Americans hate other Americans.". That's our liberal democracy at work, by design. That's how we keep the government working for us and not the other way around.

[Soteris]

@love_conquers_lust I just pointed out that even though renewables are growing in USA, its too late and its too slow. Furthermore, the problem with gas stoves is not only the energy aspect but also the health issue.

As for scale, its not really an issue. If you want to look at France instead then be my guest. France has a higher population density and they swing nuclear just fine. Its simply not a problem.

As for what disaster? Putting aside the Texas example that even you hinted at which cost lives not to mention money, global warming has a very steep cost.
www.npr.org/.../extreme-weather-fueled-by-climate-change-cost-the-u-s-165-billion-in-2022

Here for example they estimate both the cost in damages and human lives. NASA and Department of Defense regularly releases similarly high estimates of the damages of climate change.

I honestly do not understand how you could possible "over-correct" something which you are 50 years too late to do. Literally anything you do is going to be insufficient already unless you know some magical solution that the rest of the world has not caught onto yet.

[DubiousIntentions]

Yeah, the Government money is not really there. We are bankrolling everyone for one thing. We can't do everything without continually raising the National Debt. As I see it, the ND will never be paid off. Maybe fire all those 87,000 IRS agents they hired and Congress taking a pay cut would make us happy.

[Soteris]

@DubiousIntentions USA is very wealthy and actually could do everything at once. Also debt works differently for countries, namely that its not actually super important to repay it and having a certain amount of debt can even be desirable.

For example, before Russia invaded Ukraine and ruined its economy it actually had a lot of cash and gold reserves to counter any US and European sanctions in the future. They could easily have paid for all their debts without it making even a slight dent in their savings but instead they choose to keep debt ticking along.

I would also not fire the IRS agents since their job is literally to claw back government money which becomes a source of revenue.

[love_conquers_lust]

@Soteris This is the problem. You're Swedish. Do you want me telling you what to do in your backyard, like the arrogant American I am?

You don't have a dog in this fight so it's easy to sit back and armchair quarterback.

[Soteris]

@love_conquers_lust If I am right then I am right. If I am wrong then I am wrong. I am not particularly interested in your feelings on the matter or if you think I have the right to have an opinion or not. I deal in facts, nothing more and nothing less.

[love_conquers_lust]

@Soteris "I deal in facts, nothing more and nothing less.".

Except you don't. Half your OPINIONS are just that, opinions. Conjectures, speculation, and predictions are hardly fact. The only factual thing about them is that they are opinions.

[Soteris]

@love_conquers_lust
Just because I deal in facts does not mean I give them to you. The opinions I have, the positions I take, the speculations I make and the predictions I make are based on the facts as I observe them. If I was not convinced that I am right then I would avoid speaking on the subject.

[love_conquers_lust]

@Soteris Says you.

[Soteris]

@love_conquers_lust
I mean, yeah. Otherwise it would be weird. You have to understand though that I have a measure of respect to the people I talk to. Namely that I make the assumption that they too have done the bare minimum required to have an opinion which is to first inform yourself on the facts, the same facts I can see myself.

I do not have much patience for people who can't even form an informed opinion.

[slatyb]

@DubiousIntentions that happened in Texas because they refuse to connect to the national grid. The power will come from renewables, like home solar.

[exitseven]

no, the government needs to keep its big nose out of our business. It is none of their business what kind of stove i have. They have no right telling me I have to drive n electric car that will catch fire in my garage and burn my house down. They do not have the right to make me buy a toilet that makes me flush twice or a washing machine that makes me do the wash twice and still not get the clothes clean. They should spend more time weeding out crooked politicians and election cheats.

[exitseven]

Thanks for the MHO😎

[DubiousIntentions]

I would like to know where all this electricity is coming from to power all the electric cars, and now stoves? Oh, wait! I know! We'll just build more coal fired electric plants and spend Billions in new power stations and transmission lines to handle all the extra load.

[Billlewis]

@DubiousIntentions Oh, don't worry -- they'll just burn millions of tons of coal to generate sufficient electricity... lol

[love_conquers_lust]

I’m an engineer and we had an annual solar powered car contest. The problem I see with that photo is his glasses aren’t snazzy enough. That and it looks uncomfortable. He’s safety minded with that helmet.

[abc3643]

No, it comes from the Sun really.
In astrophysics and geophysics, there is a quantity called the Solar Constant.
On the surface of Earth, the Solar Constant is about, on average, 1.3608 kW/m^2.
To put things in perspective, that means that the Sun alone can power 13 old 100-W incandescent light bulbs in a square meter.

OK, so the Earth is 6371 km in radius. So, the surface area = 4 * π * (6371) km^2 =
510,064,471.9 km^2 = 5.10 x 10^14 m^2
Divide that by 2 since the Sun only shines over 1/2 of Earth...2.55 x 10^14 m^2
So, this means the amount of energy that the Sun is delivering to Earth every second is
2.55 x 10^14 m^2 * 1.3608 kW/m^2 = 3.47 x 10^14 kW = 3.47 x 10^17 W.

OK, NOW how much energy does Earth's civilization use?

Well, in 2022, the energy use per capita for the world was 21,039 kWh.
To make the numbers round, we'll say 21,000 kWh and that Earth's population is 8 billion.
So, how much energy did we use in 2022?
8x10^9 person * 21,000 kwh / person * 3600 s/hour = 6.048 x 10^17 kW s = 6.048 x 10^20 W s.
But a "watt second" is a Joule, the basic unit of energy in physics.
So, in 2022, humanity consumed 6.048 x 10^20 J of energy.
But 1 year is 24 hr/day * 3600 s/hr * 365 days/year = 31,536,000 seconds.
So, THE AVERAGE CONSUMPTION OF ENERGY BY HUMANS =
6.048 x 10^20 J / 31,536,000 s = 1.918 x 10^13 W

Now the big finish.
Humans consume power at about 2 x 10^13 W
The power of sunlight hitting the Earth is about 3.5 x 10^17 W

SO, the fraction of energy from sunlight hitting the Earth that is ultimately consumed by humans is:
2 x 10^13 W / 3.5 x 10^17 W = 1/17500 = about 5.71 x 10^-5

That means that humans are consuming only 1/17500 or 0.005.71% of the energy that the Sun is giving us for free.

In other words, we could go 100% solar 17500 times.

[love_conquers_lust]

@abc3643 I’ve run this calculation before, too.

The cross sectional or frontal area of the Earth is the what determines the solar flux of energy. So, divide your number again by two or the surface area by 4.

Only a fraction of that incident solar radiation reaches the Earth’s surface. Like 1/6 of it due to effects like the Albedo effect and atmospheric reflection/absorption. A majority of that energy is used to drive the weather.

The solar constant comes from the Steffan Boltzman law for black body radiation, the surface temperature of the sun, and the distance of the Earth from the sun if you ever want to run that quick calculation.

This is why I’m a big supporter of space based solar harvesting arrays. But those present a future engineering challenge with literally global warming us to death concentrating more heat beyond than just the steady state amount the Earth is irradiated with from the Sun.

“No, it comes from the Sun really.” Pretty much. That and the energy inputted from the Earth’s crust to sequester and transform it into fossil fuel.

[abc3643]

@love_conquers_lust I understand how it works.

[love_conquers_lust]

@abc3643 I'm thrilled you ran this calculation. People don't really understand what "We build shit" really means when asked what engineers do.

I should have mentioned I agree with your main point. There is a ton of solar energy we aren't using.

[DubiousIntentions]

@love_conquers_lust I don't see where they will put the groceries. 🤔

[DubiousIntentions]

@love_conquers_lust space based solar harvesting? Are they going to run a long extension cord down from the array?

[love_conquers_lust]

They’re in his lap. He took the grocery getter because the wife said some “nonsense” about caring about the planet, obviously.

A space elevator. They had them in Halo.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_elevator

https://www.halopedia.org/Space_elevator

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Fz6zkR9c6kw

This nerd pictures a building so tall it stretches into the sky and disappears. A structure that has no top. Something that requires a major advancement in material science and would be an engineering mega project. A pipe dream, that is probably centuries away that we won’t won’t live to see.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_megaprojects

[DubiousIntentions]

@love_conquers_lust Yeah, that won't happen. It would collapse by it's own weight from shoddy contractors. The cost alone would be nothing less than astronomical. But Biden will just print more money so we would be alright. 💰🤑💲💸💲💲💲💲💲

[love_conquers_lust]

@dubiousintentions I was always a fan of Calvin And Hobbes growing up. Maybe we should send him a copy so sleepy Joe could read himself a bedtime story and learn a thing or two when he puts on his thinking/nightcap.

It has lots of picturea.:

www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/1986/12/18

[love_conquers_lust]

*pictures

[DubiousIntentions]

@Billlewis And transport it in diesel powered trains and trucks. *cough cough! 😫

[chrissykerdock]

i once had an electric stove and very difficult to use... not so much hard but you don't get a sense of the flame and may place your hand on it... it's like th e dishwasher the goverment messed that up too.

[OlderAndWiser]

Politicians are known for telling us to do as they say and not as they do. Nothing new here.

[MiddleAgedClimbee]

Completely agree

[MiddleAgedClimbee]

We don't need them as role models.

[Constatine]

Well I don't agree everything on gas should be banned. The electrical grid can not handle everything... Specialy when everyone goes E.

( for most countries will not be ready for decades.. Their E grid is old and out dated)

The net wil collapse... Everything will go dark.. No fridge and no way to cook...

Yeah that is a realy good move... Not!

Lets send everyone back to 1200 BC...

[RavVid]

Gas stoves are highly efficient ~80%. Not 100% because of exhaust gas venting Power stations can be as low as 30% thermodynamic efficient with some getting as high 60%.

It is far better to use gas stoves than electricity as less carbon. Unless you have a solar panel and it is day time and it is sunny or you don't mind which day you eat the turkey.

[Joshydavid25]

Another silly thing the Biden Administration is working on.. But it's probably not as simple and cut as it's made out to be.. But that's silly.. Are they gonna replace them once they ban them.. This will be another instance of the government ruining something when they try and put their hands in it.

[AmandaYVR]

I've heard this, they're slowly releasing toxins into our homes. But damn it, they are sooooooooo superior to cook with. I need fire! I yelled at the TV news when I heard this.

I'm glad I'm old. I don't like the way things are going...

[slatyb]

Joe Biden is? Where's your source for that?

Some cities are considering banning them in new residential construction. Makes sense to me, they pollute the air.

[RobT312]

Until the country has a cleaner way to make all electricity (high % still made by coal) then things like this should not be a big deal!

[MiddleAgedClimbee]

How about we just use less overall, and try and keep our green spaces, healthy and lush if possible.

[sheikalana]

How bad is it for the environment? Cuz gas stoves have been around for ages before electric stoves and we survived.

[Anonymous]

Why does everything have to be banned? Just leave people alone. Look at how unpleasant our lives are just from all the things that have been banned.

[rigmarole]

The very notion of it violates the Commerce Clause...

[Static_In_The_Attic]

As for the White House it has four gas ovens & two hotel style gas ranges & if you ban gas stoves I guarantee the White House isn’t going to update its equipment to electric.

[RedInnocent68]

Am changing houses and about to get one. Now you have me worried… Maybe new ones.

[Jersey2]

If it makes a difference, yes. If its just BS, no.

We know private jets make a difference so they should be greatly curtailed, perhaps with a tax that makes it equal per capita to the carrying capacity of a 757.

[gorydetails]

I just bought a new one, the Biden admin can eat my dick.

[Anonymous]

Nope, love all the liberals saying yes

Wonder what they'd say if Joey turned up asking for one of the children and a tub of Vaseline

[KrakenAttackin]

Banning gas stoves and heating units is beyond idiotic.

[Dargil]

Government should ban nothing except by legislation (not unelected bureaucrat regulation, once it clears the Supreme Court.

[JacobJordan]

no. I have a gas stove in all my houses i installed them all personally and paid a very high price to have the gas brought in

[tfan1]

Man the fake smile on his face looks like Help me! Help me! And she looks like a black widow spider

[Mansearching]

No. They shouldn't. people have to be more careful.

[Guido]

It's just more government stupidity. Nothing they do makes sense.

[BarryLiverstone]

Think it’s the right playing politics

[Drewtate]

I feel its a non-issue.

[Joker_]

nope

[Hispanic-Cool-Guy]

Nope.

[Pterodon]

Fuck no