Have you heard of the Death Row phenomenon?

[OddBeMe]

There’re actually TWO. The first is the brutality of being on death row. Usually isolation, not much stimulation. It’s actually crimes against humanity… But whatevs…. right?

The 2nd Phenomenon is: Prisoners getting a Stay and transfer to a Life Sentence. The prisoner is REBORN and goes on to get education degrees and other attributes.

Basically it’s looking down the barrel of a gun and then being given mercy.

My question: WHY can’t people see this before they commit crime?

How can we get people to care before they’re looking at death?

Impossible to make people think about consequences of their actions beforehand

Could happen, somehow…

[Taniisokay]

Human BEINGS aren't unpredictable BEINGS. Probably those people given up on life that's why they done such awful things.

[OddBeMe]

If they’re guilty. And we can only be 99% sure. Not enough.

[genericname85]

the first thing you said wasn't a "phenomenon". it was your opinion on a fact. the second thing you stated was not a "phenomenon" either. it was just an insane lie stated as if it was a fact.

[OddBeMe]

Shoulda picked the mho before gag automatically chose the dumbest…

digital.sandiego.edu/.../

[genericname85]

well you mentioned nothing about that actual phenomenon of "psychological effects of death row on prisoners in death row" instead you made it a point about falls religious nonsense claim that is neither even stated nor claimed or supported in the source you just provided so i guess gag is pretty good at choosing correctly.

[OddBeMe]

This whole Q is about psychological effects of crime dummy.

[genericname85]

it doesn't work like: you make an outlandish claim and then post some random scientific source that uses one word you also used. it needs to support your actual claim. and most of all: if you're citing a source, don't expect people not to actually read it to see if it says the same you said. that only works with brainless fools.

[OddBeMe]

Yeah. Gag is so interested in well cited opinions.

[OtterMan68]

The DP is not about justice. It's about vengeance.

Look at the list of top 10 countries by number of excutions. Other than the US, they are all dictatorships, theocracies, and oligarchies.

[Juxtapose]

Fully agreed.

[OddBeMe]

That’s true.

But I was trying to ask how we could get people to think before committing crimes.

[Juxtapose]

"You can't fix stupid." - George Carlin

[OddBeMe]

Then why lock people up? Just mass grave.

[Juxtapose]

I don't think anyone but the most out of touch assholes thought prison actually rehabilitated people.

[Juxtapose]

And I don't agree with giving the government permission to kill people anymore than absolutely necessary.

[OtterMan68]

raising better children

[Juxtapose]

There's a lot of trashy people raising kids. Ever since I moved to Ohio I have seen some pretty fucked up shit. Like a kid going door to door in a apartment complex, asking people for food. Then there is a 15-year-old fucking older dudes. Then there's kids being left on with electronics and then watching beastiality.

Children are absolutely exposed to a lot of crap unless they are raised by rich parents who shelter them I believe.

[dustybiker2]

You're assuming they are sane and have clear thought process. Sane people do not take lives. Sane people are involved in accidental death and are traumatized for life because of it.

[OddBeMe]

You say that but only.5% of convicts successfully use the inanity defense.

[msc545]

The insanity defense is extremely complicated and technical and most lawyers cannot present it effectively. Moreover, most jurors refuse to accept that someone can be so mentally ill that they have no control over their impulses. This is of course not the case. I have seen many people and taken care of many people who have literally no impulse control and no judgment as a result of mental illness. The fact that only a small percentage of convicts have successfully used the insanity defense is more of a comment on the bloody-mindedness and stupidity of jurors than it is an indicator of the prevalence of mental illness in the population.

[dustybiker2]

Is that 5% because they are stuck with state lawyers fresh out of college and zero experience?

[msc545]

No if it's because the whole thing is very technical and difficult to explain to lay people. Lawyers do the best they can with it but in the end many jurors refuse to believe it. The lawyers are not incompetent but the whole topic is very complex. I've testified in these kind of trials multiple times and most of the time the insanity plea is rejected.

[OddBeMe]

Either way…legal insanity is not knowing right from wrong. Most murderers cover up their crimes. Thus not insane.

Even the few who could be close: one killer believed he had to drink blood to stay alive, the other thought he had to kill to prevent earthquakes- knew it was legally wrong.

[dustybiker2]

So how do we define them? Monsters? Psychopaths is brushing that sketchy insanity area again.
Is the legal system wrong separating insanity as knowing right and wrong from knowingly doing wrong anyway? Legally that is just guilty. But to perform such crimes, especially if strategically planned is insane, no? (Double checked the definition of insanity)

[msc545]

It is not just right from wrong. Look up the irresistible impulse test to find out more about what I'm talking about.

[OddBeMe]

There’s not really a hard science. How else do you decide insanity? If they know right from wrong, they’re guilty.

[msc545]

Insanity is a legal term, not a medical one. A person can know right from wrong and still be legally insane.

[msc545]

here:

"Under the "Irresistible Impulse" test a jury may find a defendant not guilty by reason of insanity where the defendant was laboring under a mental disease or defect that compelled them to commit the object offense."

"Under the "Irresistible Impulse" test a jury may find a defendant not guilty by reason of insanity where the defendant was laboring under a mental disease or defect that compelled them to commit the object offense."

www.law.cornell.edu/.../insanity_defense

[OddBeMe]

@msc545 I mean lots of mumbo jumbo…. same thing as “Did he know right from wrong?” “Yes he covered up his crimes.” “Right, he’s liable for them. But can be treated in prison.”

[msc545]

What are you trying to say here?

[dustybiker2]

If it's not a medical definition in a trial then does this not make it human interpretation of all things involved? Is that fair?

Should juries be educated and trained instead of simply some suckers whose names popped up on the summons list?

[msc545]

If humans don't interpret things, who will? My cat Allister has wisely declined.

[dustybiker2]

I'm just pondering instead of taking sides.

[OddBeMe]

We all are. I will to defer to msc’s experience. But from what I read it’s virtually impossible for any defendant to claim they are insane.

However to Msc’s point, the slenderman girls were committed to a mental institution, which I’m reading is far worse than prison.

[dustybiker2]

Ugh agreed.

[msc545]

You first have to decide what you mean by the word "insane". It is not just not being able to differentiate right and wrong.

[dustybiker2]

@msc545 I'm trying to think of a way to categorize monstrous behavior. Insane seems insulting to those with severe mental illness who would never hurt another living thing, or property.

[OddBeMe]

Very true, even legal scholars and judges have to stop themselves from calling Dahmer who ate people, Bundy who was a necrophile and Gacy who loved torture “insane”.

But the truth is they all knew their crimes were illegal. Simple.

[dustybiker2]

Yes.

[msc545]

@OddBeMe How do you know they knew?

[dustybiker2]

If they were proven guilty the judges didn't see them proving themselves as insane.

[msc545]

It doesn't follow that they necessarily knew that what they did was illegal when they did it.

[dustybiker2]

If they didn't do their crimes in plain sight, broad daylight, essentially hid them. Would that not show they knew enough to hide something they were doing? Or would it just be coincidence? (Something else that struck me)

[OddBeMe]

@msc545 When they cover up their crimes…they know they’ve done wrong.

[OddBeMe]

@dustybiker2 correct…it’s obvious even the “craziest” killers, like the bath salts guys, knew it was wrong.

[msc545]

You are both simplifying things that can't be simplified in this way. At least not accurately. Just because somebody hides a crime does not indicate that they knew it was wrong. They might be very convinced that it was right but that other people wouldn't understand that and thus hide it. It might be embarrassed by it but not understand that it's wrong or illegal and thus try to hide it. R. It might be just an obscure kind of thing and not deliberately hidden but winds up being hidden. Anyway. There are all sorts of possibilities here and to say that one that a needs to b in the sense that hiding means cognizance of wrongness is not true.

[dustybiker2]

"They might be very convinced that it was right but that other people wouldn't understand that and thus hide it."

But this would show intent in a legal sense. Proof to knowing others would not like the actions. So in turn surely shows they knew it was wrong.

[msc545]

It does not show that they knew or believed it was wrong. It only shows that they knew others would not approve of it. That is different.

[dustybiker2]

They knew enough to hide something. That shows intent at worst and guilt at best. No?

[msc545]

Nope.

[OddBeMe]

@msc545 if they knew the cops wouldn’t “approve” is that not the same thing as illegal?

[msc545]

No, it isn't the same thing. Cops don't approve of many things and not all of those things are illegal. You're sort of nitpicking here, aren't you?

[dustybiker2]

You're almost proving my earlier point of human interpretation of the law. It's sounding a bit bias and less consistent all around.

[msc545]

If human don't interpret the law, who or what does? My cat Allister again refuses to get involved.

[OddBeMe]

@msc545 at least we know your password to everything. Lol

[msc545]

Allister uses my name as HIS password. God help you if you try to hack his stuff.

[Sevenpointfive]

we are completely run by a corrupt government trying to extort money from it's citizens. and if it can't get it directly, it will use taxpayer money. i'm definitely moving out of the u. s. soon

[Sevenpointfive]

i think i'm going to start making fentanyl for the cartels. we could be nuked any day anyway

[msc545]

Some people are simply unable to anticipate consequences or to realize they matter even when they do.