Why can’t people just accept that Russia isn’t going to lose this war?

[Anonymous]

They are very committed to winning , so just let Putin get what he wants. We can’t stop them

[Lliam]

Because they listen to U. S. propaganda on mainstream media.

Russia tried to negotiate peaceful terms with the Ukrainian government for 8 years, beginning in 2014, only to be rebuffed and lied to. Russia's main concern was not having NATO on its door step. It also wasn't going to give up it's naval base in Crimea, which would be like the U. S. giving up its Pacific fleet. Ain't gonna happen. Finally, Russia felt an obligation to help the ethnic Russians and Russian speaking people in Crimea and eastern Ukraine, who were being terrorized and murdered by the Ukrainian military and Nazi brigades and begging for assistance.

Russia had no desire to occupy all of Ukraine and certainly has no plans to expand.
How would expansion benefit Russia?
If Russia had wanted to annex all of Ukraine, it would have done so very quickly. Contrary to myth, it wasn't halted by the heroic Ukrainian defense forces.

The U. S. promotes the lie of Russia as an aggressor in order justify its ongoing obsession with trying to destroy Russia one way or the other. That's a standard U. S. modus operandi around the world. It paints uncooperative governments as dangerous so that it can attack them in pursuit of its own hegemonic goal.

[Create21]

ARE YOU SERIOUS? Russia had every desire to occupy all of Ukraine. They landed troops right outside of Kyiv within hours after they started military operations. That isn’t made up, that is fact. They hit ALL major Ukraine cities with cruise missles the first night of military operations. WOW. Have you been brainwashed. History will tell you that since the end of World War 1, Russia has been an expansionist government with the minor blip in the 90s. They want territory. They want the former glory of Russia from the 50s, 60s and 70s. Wow, just wow. I can’t even comprehend how you came to these conclusions. Everything Russia has done and their history goes completely against what you said. Do you work on one of Vlad’s disinformation farms?

[Lliam]

@Create21. In 2022, Russia went as far as Kiev to show that it could. It also bombed the shit out of Ukraine's air and military bases, as well as bio-engineering facilities. But it didn't destroy Kiev. It didn't prosecute a shock and awe campaign like the U. S. did in Baghdad. It went to great lengths to avoid civilian casualties. Then it voluntarily withdrew and tried to negotiate a peaceful settlement like it wanted all along for the previous 8 years. Ukraine was going to go along with it until the U. S. and NATO convinced it to hold out.

Russia isn't the USSR, dude. It's not controlled by Bolsheviks anymore. It was the communist Bolsheviks who wanted to conquer Europe. That's why Hitler started expanding eastward until Britain declared war.

What would modern Russia do with occupied European countries? Doing so would lead to its destruction. It has all the land and resources it needs. It would take way to much man power to occupy European countries. It would much rather have trading partners. It want peace. But the U. S. wants to destroy Russia.
What Russia wants is to keep NATO off of it's doorstep. It doesn't want military bases and missiles on its border. Period.

What would the U. S. do if a partnership of hostile countries pulled off a coup in Mexico and started building military bases along the U. S. southern border? Look how the U. S. reacted to the Cuban missile crisis.

[Create21]

The leader of Russia is trying to restore the glory of the U. S. S. R., which is what he grew up with. He has made that clear and even said as much.

They were not peaceful negotiations. Russia was already supply backing for separatist before 2014. People only started paying attention because they invaded a sovereign country. Yes, it was an invasion. We own a base on Cuba - it doesn’t give us the right to occupy Cuba and deem it the 51st state, which is what Russia did with Crimea, Luhansk, Donetsk and Zaph. HUGE, BIGLY difference.

Where we agree is that Russia does not want NATO on their doorstep. But, the reason countries are jumping to join NATO is because they don’t trust Russia. Why do you think Belarus and Georgia have Russian-friendly governments when they both originally tried to join NATO? Because Russia destabilized those governments and purposely supported campaigns to put in Russian-friendly leaders. There was no reason Belarus needed to be the launching pad for the Russian ground invasion of Ukraine. Also, it wasn’t because Ukraine wanted to join NATO, it was because Ukraine was set to join the European Union to have better trading partners in Europe. VERY different organizations. And, in case you didn’t understand, there was a Kremlin-friendly leader in Ukraine who withdrew that application and then fled when hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians protested in the streets because they WANT NOTHING TO DO WITH RUSSIA.

[Create21]

Adding on:
AND you are 100 percent wrong that Russia only wanted to show their might and then pulled back. Ukraine said from the first moment that they would fight this until they were back to their original borders. They have been consistent in this since day 1. Also, first, Russia showed incredible incompetence with supply chains, that is why you have burned out Russian tanks all over Ukraine. Second, there was nothing peaceful about it. Both sides lost thousands of people. Third, Russia targeted hospitals and other civic areas with their missles and killed thousands of civilians. Fourth, if Russia is so merciful, why did they try to cripple the Ukraine power grid in the dead of winter when they know thousands of Ukrainians would die from cold? Fifth, why did they purposefully take over Chernobyl and get thousands of their soldiers sick if they were so peaceful? Finally, Ukraine has said they would pull back their NATO application if Russia would go back to the borders before Crimea was annexed and Russia has refused.

Regarding occupied countries, Russia has lots of resources, but they are embargoed on their distribution. If they can acquire territory and take over mining operations, piping, etc., they would be massively rich. Do you know that the Russian economy is dependent on oil selling at $100 per barrel? They need money from other resources and they need to diversify. Easiest way to do that is to acquire it from somewhere else.

[Lliam]

@Create21. Whatever. I wouldn't believe the U. S. government or corporate media if they said that water was wet unless I verified it myself or from independent sources.

I didn't fall for the Rusophobic or anti-Putin propaganda.
I many ways, the U. S. and many European government are worse.

So you can save your arguments. I already know where you are coming from.
You sound like you work on one of the State Department or CIA disinformation farms.

[Create21]

And, I guess you work for one of the Putin disinformation farms. It’s a sad day when Americans become propaganda monsters for Russia. Veterans who have laid down their lives for you deserve better than your pile of Russian beliefs. But, i bet you believed the U. S. government for everything from 2017 to 2021, didn’t you? I weep for our future.

[Lliam]

@Create21. LOL I started wising up during the Vietnam War. I also read lots of books. The history of U. S. aggression (especially since WWII), with dozens of wars and coups, not to mention sanctions (sieges) is appalling. None of it was ever about human rights or democracy, that's for sure.

I opposed our attack on Serbia, the war in Afghanistan, and the despicable shock and awe campaign in Iraq. I oppose support for Izrahell.

I don't love Putin. But I'm not an msm consuming, mind controlled robot.

I feel sorry for our military personnel who are nothing but mercenaries for corporate profiteers. When they are half way around the world attacking people in another country that never attacked us, they are not defending the U. S. from anything.

[Create21]

Okay. Interesting and thank you for the background - that is much appreciated. The issues around Vietnam I’ll admit are disturbing and what the Pentagon Papers brought to light was incredible (although, interesting that it was the “Mainstream Media” that made that happen - but that is another aside). The same could be said about the regime switches in Iran and Iraq that were supported by our intelligence agencies and of course, the Bay of Pigs fiasco.

I think we can agree that pretty much every government has things happening that, if we knew, people would be shocked and deeply disturbed. Are all those things bad? Probably in some respect, but probably also better than the alternative. And, that is where I fall with Ukraine. First, I believe they want to be a free country with the borders as they were before the invasion in 2014. Second, I believe it is better for the U. S. to support Ukraine to deter an aggressive Russia that I believe wants to restore itself as THE world power. That said, I don’t support U. S. soldiers being put on the ground in Ukraine. But, providing them arms and hardware and some cash does not bother me. Let them slug it out with Russia and weaken the Ruskies. It will make it that much easier for us to deal with China.

I’m curious about the books you read about WW2 and U. S. aggression - please share the titles as I’ve not heard about this topic. Do you mean the reason that Roosevelt secretly wanted us brought into the war?

Anyway … again, thank you for the background and have a good evening/morning/afternoon whatever it is where you are.

[Lliam]

@Create21. Not so much about WWII, although that is way more complicated than what people are taught.
I did read "Hidden History: The Secret Origins of the First World War". Mind blowing.

But I was talking about U. S. actions after the war. In the 1940s and 50s alone:
Greece 1947-49
Italy 1948
Philippines 1948-53
Korean 1950-53
Iran 1953
Guatemala 1954
Lebanon 1958

The list goes on and on to the present day.

And I'll say that the U. S. baited Russia into attacking Ukraine. By 2022, Russia had little other choice. And, as you said, the goal was to weaken Russia, but it didn't work out that way. The Russian economy and military are stronger than ever. U. S. leaders are insane. They even fucked their European allies in the process.

Again, why would Russia invade anyone? It's not pushing an ideology like the Soviets. It would be content to be treated as a trading partner instead of an enemy. But we are fed the nonsense that Putin is a power-mad dictator. The U. S. says that about every leader it doesn't like. It said the same thing about Assad and Maduro for Christ's sake.

[abc3643]

There's an old saying:
"Those who fail to learn from history are condemned to repeat it."

Since you are one of those folks, here's your remedial history lesson...

Your words are pretty much the same sentiments as former UK Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain.
In September 1938, he signed the Munich Agreement with NAZI Germany thus ceding the Sudetenland of Czechoslovakia to the Germans. Hitler wanted it and Chamberlain rolled over and let him have it.

BUT, 1 year later, in September 1939, Hitler wanted more and invaded Poland and later Russia after signing a non-aggression pact with them. Thus begat WW2 with 10s of millions dead.

>>> The appeasement of the Munich Agreement didn't work. Because appeasement doesn't work.
You don't defeat a bully - especially an untrustworthy one, at that - by letting him rule. You defeat him by kicking him in the teeth.

You need to learn this lesson.
And, at "(30-35)", you should have learned it 20 years ago.

If Putin is successful in getting Trump into the White House again, he will in since he has Trump by the balls. However, if Biden stays, the war may continue, but Europe will be safe.

[lightbulb27]

a good read with some interesting rational. I don't fully agree, but who cares. my question is... how do you (and your perspective) see this war ending and to what end would USA ensure Russia does not win? How do you see Russi being defeated and "giving up", stopping, accepting defeat, abandoning their goals? If Russia progresses... what else does USA throw at it... to ensure they do reverse course?
I see no way in H they quit and negotiate their border security from a weak position. What would that look like... russia implosion? It's either russia falls or russia gets what they want. Am I reading that right?
What do you think the USA neocon/Biden viewpoint believes is the end state?

[abc3643]

@lightbulb27
The war should have ended by now. What happened is the allies wavered in their support of Ukraine. That allow Russia time to regroup and make adjustments. If the Allies stepped up again and did not stop, Russia will have been stalmated and the war will end. Something else: the Allies need to do more about obstructing Iran and China from assisting the Russians. In a sense this is an ersatz WW3.

[abc3643]

The war would end tomorrow if NATO just instantly made Ukraine a member. That would never happen though because of the leeriness of invoking Article 5.

[Daniela1982]

Russia will still be around in the End Times, and will be much bigger and more powerful. So it seems to me that Ukraine will probably be part of them. In other words, they will lose.

[ApplePie409]

They can't admit it. If they admitted it, they could no longer justify this massive money laundering scheme that the American taxpayers are burdened with?

[Create21]

You do realize that hardly any currency has gone to Ukraine. It has all been in the form of hardware and equipment.

[ApplePie409]

107 billion

[Daniela1982]

@Create21 Bull shit! They have been given cash which went to some oligarchs.

[ApplePie409]

@Daniela1982

Those oligarchs went on lavish vacations and even had swimming pools put in their backyards. All on the American taxpayer's dime. @exitseven understands this. He said Joey has no choice, because Joey is compromised and has no choice but to hand over our tax dollars to Ukraine and China.

Remember when Joey sold our strategic oil reserve to China? Liberals were fine with that. It would be like selling the spare tire on your car. You hope you never need it, but if you do need it, you're glad you have it.

[Create21]

Sold strategic oil reserve to China? Where the hell did you make that up from? Our strategic oil reserves are stored in the U. S. China is not a big exporter of oil. We however are. The U. S. is the largest exporter of oil in the world. We sell it to many countries. We buy from others because it is cheaper to purchase some oil on the open market than it is for us to manufacture. You should take some economics courses.

[ApplePie409]

@Create21

You should pull your fucking head out of your ass and learn how to do research. Biden sold our strategic oil supply to China. So your argument is that China doesn't export oil? LMAO
Buying oil is NOT exporting it. You should take an economics class.

[ApplePie409]

This guy can't be American. He's a dumb as a box of rocks.

[Create21]

Hey dumb fuck. Yes, buying is not exporting you stupid illiterate piece of shit. Selling is exporting which is what I said. Can you not read left to right and put words together to form a sentence? The U. S. is the LARGEST exporter of oil in the world dumb ass. We have so much oil we sell it. And, we also are a large buyer. WHY? Because it is cheaper for us to buy from other countries than produce our own.

Biden did NOT sell our strategic reserves. By law he can’t sell off our strategic reserves. He released some onto the open market, but didn’t sell of our reserves. Where do you come up with this stuff?

NOW. If you want to talk about sending massive amounts of money somewhere, why don’t you looking into Chevron and other American oil companies and look at the price supports and tax breaks they get. That is where the real robbery is happening.

You’re so frickin’ dumb you probably think that inflation is completely because of Biden. Blah, blah, blah. I do have an economics background - quite well rounded in fact. And, economics has nothing to do with exporting or importing dumb ass, that is market movement. Market movement has an impact on the economy, but it isn’t the economy. FUCK. My brain hurts because of people like you who have the brain power of a hamster.

[Daniela1982]

@Create21 If this is true, why do we buy oil from Saudi Arabia? I thought that what the Alaska pipeline was for, to reduce our dependance on oil from other countries. I mean, isn't that why we went to war in Iraq, to protect Kuwait oil that we depend on? We knew weapons of mass destruction was BS. It was really for the oil. If we have so much oil why would we care? And why would our gas prices depend on the price of a barrel of oil we import? I don't get it.

[WindAtMyBack]

I said almost as soon as it started that Ukraine would end up being sacrificed. Russia could very easily be beat, but the west is unwilling to do what it takes. They keep doing half measure, instead of going all in and getting it over with fast.

Either you play to win, or don't play at all. But all the west is doing is fucking around which only draws it out and ends up with lots more death and destruction. Why can't these countries learn their lessons? They have to keep learning the same thing over and over, but ten years later completely forgot what they learned.

The thing is that there is nothing left to fight over. It's a wasteland, and has been for a long time.

[normalice]

They have already lost the narrative of military dominance over the west. In a war between Russia and NATO, Russia has lost hundreds of thousands of pedophile soldiers, tens of thousands of toy tanks, wasted tons of ammunition, and so on. And NATO? NATO hasn't even shown up yet.

[Sevenpointfive]

are you new to the usa? this is the only way the government can use taxpayer money to pad the rich and secure peace.

you have to be an idiot if you'd think russia couldn't crush the ukraine in a day. they don't need to announce it in the news that they are going to do this for 3 years until a major us election chimes in a new president. zelensky hasn't spent a day in the ukraine since the war. i wish the war was real

[exitseven]

There is so much money to be made in this war. The arms manufacturers are donating millions to political campaigns to keep this war going forever. President Zalinsky also has leverage over Biden because Hunter was given millions for access to "the Big Guy" I am sure that Biden would not want Zalinsky to announce the the world how corrupt he is during an election year.

[Pohjolan]

Just like they weren't going to lose the war in Afghanistan?

Besides even if they do win there is the question of how much they are going to win and what price.

Thirdly the more Russia bleeds now the less likely we have to fight both Russia and China at the same time.

[jshm2]

Because Western hubris has always been like that. From the crusades to the "war" on terror.

It would rather kill thousands of people, than admit it was wrong.

[DryGermanGuy]

They had the same or even larger commitment as USSR in Afghanistan and still lost the war.

[lightbulb27]

good question.

What's more concerning is what those people... and they are in power... will do when Russia does get what they want.

[ApplePie409]

Bulb, I was listening to an interview with retired General Flynn. That guy is one sharp cookie. He said that America will be putting boots on the ground in Ukraine. I believe him. When have we NOT put American boots on the ground in war? I know that Biden promised he would never do that, but when has Joey ever told the truth about anything? Is he even capable of telling the truth?

[Create21]

@ApplePie409 Flynn is an idiot. There is a reason he was forced to retire from the military and why he lasted less than a month as National Security Advisor. Flynn was also a PAID consultant for the Russian military before being picked up by the Trump administration. The guy is not sharp, he is an absolute idiot.

The reason for sending money and weapons is to keep American troops out of conflict, while degrading the Russian military. Ukraine has specifically said they don’t WANT American troops on the ground, they will fight their own fight. WOW. Just where did you come up with this stuff?

[ApplePie409]

@Create21
You are so full of fucking shit. I saw Volodymyr Oleksandrovych Zelenskyy demand that America put boots on the ground in Ukraine. Dorks like you will probably deny that there is a military industrial complex. Zelenskyy has admitted that a lot of the money we send them has been taken by corrupt officials for their own personal gain. Swimming pools in their backyards and lavious vacations. Why do you think that Joey the clown refuses to have accountants figure out where the money is going?
This is nothing but a scam, and you are a useful idiot.

[Create21]

@ApplePie409 Wow … Do you know actually how much currency has gone to Ukraine … less than 10%. Almost all that has been sent to them has been hardware. Good lord. You scare me for the future of our country. There have been MANY times we haven’t put boots on the ground. Afghanistan in the 80s, Iran in the 70s, Iraq in the 80s, Central America - the list goes on and on. You are so wrapped up in your conspiracy theories and your head is so far up your ass that you see the backside of your teeth.

So, are you one of the people that still believes Donald is in control of the U. S. government? That he didn’t lose and that he still controls the military? The same “military complex” that you bemoan? You are proof that even though there is a God, Darwin wasn’t too far off with some people. Go ahead mouth breather (yes, I can throw insults too, but at least I have facts), believe all the conspiracy theories; think that there is a secret division in the government of men who stare at goats and do mind control; believe that Russia and Ukraine are sacrificing hundreds of thousands of lives just for good TV ratings - whatever. Feed yourself with morsels of AI generate materials you see online and donate to Donald’s lawsuit defense fund. I, nor can any professional, help you.

[lightbulb27]

@ApplePie409 I hadn't heard that and it doesn't make sense beyond "advisors". It's bad enough we are somehow delivering all these materials, those are boots on the ground somewhere close by... and probably in ukraine at times, training. But in combat roles... I don't see that happening, certainly not before an election. To justify it, would require a major "false flag" event, but even that be a stretch.
It leaves the question... what will they do as russia pushes west and holds ground?

[Create21]

@ApplePie409 Why is the PM of Estonia on the most wanted list of Russia? Because she has opposed Putin vigorously and is the biggest supporter of NATO. Do you know where the Zelensky Yacht story started? Truth Social - did you know that it has already been traced back to Moscow? No, probably not. Funny. You will rip people apart because of things you see or hear in a very small echo chamber, because it is what you want to believe. And, I guess that is fine. But, it is a direct threat to the world and the security of the U. S.

[OddBeMe]

Why couldn’t we accept the US was gonna win in Vietnam? They were just a bunch of guerrilla savages!
- General Westmoreland…or Nixon…or some other ahole.

[OtterMan68]

It's their Vietnam just like their invasion of Afghanistan. What's the end game? Will they have to occupy large parts of Ukraine for years?

[michol123]

If they give Putin what he wants do you think he'd be satisfied

[Lliam]

Yes. He simply will not allow more NATO on Russia's border.

[Create21]

@Lliam Stooge. Is that why Finland and Sweden immediately applied for NATO acceptance? No, because they are worried they are next. Moldova is scared shitless that they are next. Hell, Poland is worried they are next. You don’t get it, do you? A dictator (which Putin is, because their elections are a joke) is never satisfied with what they have, they always want more. Dumbass.

[Lliam]

@Create21. LMAO. Okay, retard.

[Create21]

@Lliam that’s the best you have … clearly unarmed for a battle of wits.

[nawtee_me]

All it takes for evil to succeed is that good people do nothing….

[Astarlessnightsky]

Yes, great idea to "just let dictators win"

[Anonymous]

What if he doesn't stop at Ukraine?

[handsomelad70]

So was Nazi Germany.

[jahaims]

We can stop him. Just not via proxy wars.

[noohair]

Even a pyrrhic victory.

[Twalli]

We actually can if we want to.

[Anonymous]

Well, because we have a moron in the WH.

[Create21]

Explain how that means anything?