Defund the Police. Yay or nay?

[Drewtate]

Updates

1 y

We can see what's happening in places where the police were defunded, a huge spike in crime and closing of buisnesses. It's fine if you live in a gated community with 24 hour armed security.

[fr44c3]

Nope! There are definitely flaws in the law enforcement system, but it doesn’t mean that we should get rid of the law enforcement! They also keep the communities safe, but to get them to keep the communities fully safe like they should, and enforce the laws just right, and don’t act brutal, we need serious police reform! That means unbiased training to be unbiased towards blacks, whites, and all races, and to men and women. Like, if someone accuses a white man of stealing, the police should go and investigate and detain that white man rather than assuming that white people don’t steal, and if someone accuses a woman of raping a man, the police should detain the woman and investigate, rather than assuming that women can’t rape men! The law enforcement should be color blind and gender blind! Sure, when searching for the suspect, they need the details of physical description, and when they have it, they shouldn’t be in disbelief because it doesn’t match to stereotypes, and they shouldn’t fall for stereotypes nor believe the stereotypes! That is how we will bring about a very just policing system that will do the job just right, and be trusted by the people!

[JackBnymble]

That's woke BS and you know it.
Color DOES matter, just not in the biased way you claim. If I stop and frisk a white guy, no one cares. If I stop and frisk a black guy, I get drilled by my supervisor, the news, the captain, the chief, the detective, and the DA about why I stopped and frisked him. If two suspects run from a robbery, one black and one white, who am i going to chase? The WHITE guy. Because I'm going to get a ton of shit if I catch the black suspect and the white one gets away. I'll be accused of being racist. That's why a lot of cities are such fucked up messes. I don't blame the cops for doing nothing. If your store gets robbed and I pull up and two black guys are fleeing the scene, I'm just letting them run. If I try to detain them, I'm a racist. If one resists and I have to use force to detain him, I'm a racist. If one of them pulls a gun and I shoot him in self defense, I'm a racist. The "revrun" will surely show up with his camera crew and Bible and make a dog-and-pony show out of the fact that a white cop arrested a "black youth".

No amount of "training" will change that. The woke crowd just needs to accept the fact that a suspect is a suspect regardless of what color he is. I haven't ever rolled up to a call with the attitude that I'm "looking for a N**** to beat down". If I see a guy of any color and the suspicion is reasonable under the "reasonable man" doctrine, then he's my suspect no matter what color he is.

[Chazmatazz269]

Depends on what you’re getting at.
In the entire hilariously tragic history of mankind, nothing has ever worked better when we invested LESS in it. No exceptions. If we want better policing, we have to spend more.
That said, the irony of “defund the police” is that the idiots who want to defund police are the ones who will die first when we do. So… go right on ahead. I’m a big fan of the Darwin awards, and i’m absolutely certain i’ll live long enough to see that one handed up for the grand daddy of all f*ckups! Ell oh ell!

[northerngal]

Big Nay... spend more money on police. More money to train them better. Cutting police budgets is not the answer. We should expect more from our police but that requires we prepare them better for a difficult job.

[Drewtate]

I agree. If you call 911 they should show up.

[onedarkcloud]

Answer me this question. How can the police show up if there are none to show up since they have been defunded? How can the Fire Dept put out fires when they are being defunded to give money and health benefits to illegals how can schools teach when they are being defunded? I would like to know how it works. DEFUNDING IS ROBBING PETER TO PAY PETER

[JackBnymble]

@onedarkcloud

Give this man a cigar!

On an average night, at any given time, I have about 15 calls waiting in line ahead of your call since 10% of the force has quit over Antifa BS, and the other 20% have been laid off due to budget cuts, and 90% of the qualified never even applied for the job because they aren't going to work 12-hour shifts, four days a week, 365 days a year for $45,000 a year. Mind you I have to buy my own gun, my own body armor, my own uniforms, my own bullets, my on handcuffs, and my own leather out of that $45.000. Plus they expect me to spend money to look good and be well groomed and smell nice.

I have to further delay that call que just to take a 20 minute lunch break to swallow down a taco or two (if I'm lucky). Try paying $17 for a "lunch" once a day, then having to get up in the middle of eating it and leave it because a life-threatening priority call comes in and we're short staffed. I'm not going to let you be murdered or raped while I'm sitting and eating a meal, that just isn't cool.

Defund the cops and I'm going to have 40 calls waiting in line ahead of your call instead of 15..

But yeah, they bitch because I'm not there 8 minutes after they dial 9-1-1. Or because they see me "goofing off" at Whataburger trying to get something to eat during a ten minute break between their "Neighbor is playing loud music" calls.

[onedarkcloud]

@JackBnymble Maybe after reading your spot on description of a dedicated person who works for the general public well being. The defund idiots have no clue as to what is behind the scenes to help and keep the general population safe at what personal price. Thank You for your Dedication, and to all the men and women who work and have to do an impossible job underfunded by the idiots in charge THANK YOU!

[XXblack88]

No unless you want your state to look like NY, CA etc.

[Drewtate]

San Francisco, detroit, Chicago. All good for these liberal elites living in their gated communities with 24/7 security

[XXblack88]

yeah

[OlderAndWiser]

Only an idiot would think that the police should be defunded.

[FunkyMonkee]

TOTALLY agree!!

[SomothErgai]

Defund? Fuck no. If anything we need to increase funding. BUT, big big big BUT. That doesn't mean that there's nothing wrong with policing in america. I worked in law enforcement for some time and I can tell you there are too many flaws and straight up dumb shit pervading throughout the entire system to even articulate fully.

The problem is intelligence. Not the kind where you gather information. The kind that happens between the ears. Most law enforcement is staffed by some of the dumbest most incompetent people you will ever come across.

The "ideals" that are supposed to govern law enforcement are actually fine. It's all good stuff when you actually get into it. The problem is execution. When You have idiots and incompetent morons in charge of a system it does not matter how well designed the system is.

If the people in charge are too stupid to run it effectively or ethically then the system will fail. It's not the system. It's the people.

So when I say we need to increase funding I mean something very specific. We need way WAAYYYYY better training as well as a far more rigorous selection method. AND that training and selection needs to be ongoing. Just because you were able to get In Doesn't mean you're golden for the rest of eternity.

People can start off being the best of the best but over time and the right circumstances become corrupt and unfit for the job. Regular psych evals, comprehensive training regime's and performance reviews should be at the tippy top of the list of priorities for maintaining good staff.

And these evaluations must be done by outside agencies that have nothing to do with the success or failure of the departments they are assessing.

I'll add one more thing that I think a lot of people don't realize the Importance of. Ongoing hand to hand training. As a lifelong martial artist I can say without a shadow of a doubt that I can tell EXACTLY what kind of person you are if I train with you.

If you're overly aggressive, hot headed, prejudiced, mentally ill, scared, whatever, I'll know within the first few sessions. This should be one of the most vital roles In Every department and red flags in personnel should be reported by the training instructors. That is the single best way to weed out every single "bad apple" you've ever heard of.

[Flatmanlewis]

Absolutely not. Come to California and see what soft-on-crime and social Justice and reform looks like. Entire shopping centers closed, transients and druggies walking around like some zombie movie, defecating in the street. So few cops available that when you do have an emergency they take 1hr to get off the last emergency to get to the next one. All this chatter about redirecting funding from “police to prevention” is a meme talking point. California taxes the living crud out of us. It’s not like they don’t have enough money.

[Syntosi]

In USA, I do not see why not. While you could theoretically reform the police the fact remains that it is a lot of work and arguably harder than starting over from scratch. Why do I say from scratch? Because once again, there is an argument to be made that the US police today has a worse impact on society than unrestricted criminality without policing. In other words, the police is a larger problem than the problem it is trying to solve, it is the greater of two evils.

If you were simply trying to improve society then statistically you would choose crime above the police. That is just how bad and incompetent US police actually are and why it makes sense to start over by making a whole new institution rather than trying to salvage the old.

[Drewtate]

Working well in San Francisco

[Syntosi]

Ill take your word for it.

[KrakenAttackin]

Bro, you have ZERO FUCKING CLUE WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.

[Syntosi]

@KrakenAttackin But I do.

[FunkyMonkee]

@KrakenAttackin Sounds like a psycho, to me!!

[Syntosi]

@FunkyMonkee I'll take that as a compliment. The eccentric mad scientist type is pretty cool.

[JackBnymble]

Well, from your grammar my response would be if you don't like the way I do my job, Delta has a flight leaving the U. S. to somewhere every 4 hours. BYE. I'm sure the police force in whatever shit hole sewer country you fled from is better.

If I am mistaken about your nationality, then I apologize that our public education system has failed you so badly.

[Syntosi]

@JackBnymble I mean, I would damn well hope so. I can scarcely imagine any police being more inept than in USA and I am saying that as a factual statement and not a hyperbole.

While I dont have the up-to-date data with me (because I am incurably lazy) I do have a set that is many years old since the last time I had this argument.

Putting aside the obvious uselessness of the police such as how they are not required to protect civilians according to the supreme court and therefore can happily sit outside a school while the suspect slowly runs out of ammo from shooting all the kids, and also not bring up the fact that police keeps abusing their authority etc..

Putting all that aside, how well do you think they do their actual job? Or in other words, what do you think the case clearance rate is which basically means the percent of individual cases that are handed over to the court after being reported to the police. My data is from 2017 which at the time was a pretty good year for the police, so if anything I am being overly charitable.

[Syntosi]

@JackBnymble So what do you think it is? 90% Perhaps? I mean if I employed someone and they had a success rate of 90% I might be pretty happy with their work performance. 70%? I mean.. less than 2 in 3? That is getting pretty low there. Keep in mind, this is not convictions, just cases where the police actually do their job by investigating and handing their findings over to the courts.

The clearance rate for homicide in 2017 was 61.6%. That is bad. On a GOOD YEAR the police failed to do their basic job on almost half of homicide cases. It gets worse though. This only accounts for cases that are "opened" with the police. If people are just "missing" then they are not counted either. Adding those in and the number is more like 50%. If you get murdered in USA there is a 50% chance that your case won't even make it to the court. That is not okey.

I could go on if you want. The clearance rate on homicide rates are practically exemplar compared to some of the other categories. It will only get uglier from here if you try to argue with me.

[JackBnymble]

It isn't the cops, man. That's the SYSTEM. I've arrested guys I knew damned well were guilty. But the judge or the DA says the evidence isn't admissible. I did my job, it was the system that let them walk. Here in the USA the DA has to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. "Probably did it" or "Most likely did it" isn't good enough. The fact that I know the guy did it isn't good enough. I have to be able to prove he did it. Sometimes the evidence just isn't there. Sometimes it is, but it isn't allowed.

I collared a guy one night, watched him leave the store he robbed, watched him run into the alley, caught him running out of the other end of the alley. Judge let him go because I didn't see him change clothes while he was in the alley. You can't blame the cops. I just arrest them. I don't try them, judge them, or convict them.

[JackBnymble]

I had one guy I arrested about every week. He'd do 24 hours in jail, bail out, and be right back at the Stop-and-Go slinging dope. I'd arrest him again. Judge would give him bail. He'd be back at the Stop-and-Go slinging dope a day or two later. What was I supposed to do? My "authority" was limited to jacking him up and driving him to the magistrates office. After that, what happened to him was up to the system.

The way I finally got an understanding with Nehemiah was harassing the shit out of him every time I saw him, making sure his dope money got blowed away in the wind when I patted him down, "accidentally" dropping his pager on the cement and busting it, and nearly shooting him one night during a foot chase. But when you do that to get results then they call you a bad cop.

After nearly shooting him one night we came to an agreement, He didn't sling dope on my beat and I wouldn't make his life miserable every time I saw him. We never had a problem again.

[Syntosi]

@JackBnymble No, that is literally the cops. I specifically DID NOT include the judgement from the courts and only hinted towards cases not being opened in the first place. The clearance rate has nothing to do with if the suspect is guilty or not, it is only concerned with if the police handed over the case after the investigation to the courts. Do that and it counts towards the clearance rate and I begrudgingly admit that the cops "did their job" regardless of the quality of their investigation or anything else.

You do the investigation/job, you get the cookie. The actual outcome of the case and if they walk free or not is a whole other can of worms I have not even bothered opening because I dont need to. The example you mentioned with the robber is an example of a "cleared case" since it reached the courtroom and also an example of JUST HOW DAMN CHARITABLE I AM BEING RIGHT NOW.

But since you are interested in arguing, lets look at the next category. Rape. 34.5% of cases opened with the police is cleared and reaches the court. That is abysmal. But it gets worse, because rape is the most under reported crime in USA. If you get raped in USA, the actual chance that your case even reaches the court room is not 34.5%, its in the single digits.

I think its worth mentioning once again how charitable I have been. I have not blamed the police for why people dont want to call the police when something happens to them, such as rape, even though the reason very much has to do with how badly the police handles their cases in the first place. So yes, I am the fairest man in the world, I will turn a blind eye towards the literal SINGLE DIGIT chance that a rape case is actually processed properly by the police and instead settle for 34.5% Dont say I never did anything for you. Keep arguing and ill continue down the list.

[JackBnymble]

Not arguing just debating your idea.

" if the police handed over the case after the investigation to the courts"
That's not my job. I arrest the guy and take him to booking. The DA accepts the charges or not, builds the case against the guy, and argues the facts in court. If he summons me to court I go to court that day and testify. Once I hand him over to the booking officer at the jail, all I have to do with the case is writing a report of why I arrested the guy.

"hinted towards cases not being opened in the first place."
I don't tell the DA which cases he must prosecute. He tells me which charges he will accept or not and which cases he will prosecute or not. If I book a suspect on robbery and the DA says, "Turn him loose, I'm not prosecuting him", then the jail can't legally hold him. I can't over-rule his decision to not prosecute the guy.

That's common with marijuana charges nowadays. Many DA's won't prosecute minor possession of recreational weed now. Does me no good to waste my time to arrest a guy with a joint and take him to booking if the DA will not prosecute him. Even though possession is n the books as a misdemeanor crime There's only one DA and I'm not his boss.

My DA won't prosecute public intoxication either. If you're not doing something else like fighting or being a drunk asshole, it's a waste of resources and time for me to arrest and take a drunk to booking. The jail won't take him, even though PI is a misdemeanor crime on the books.

You seem to think cops have more authority than they do. I don't prosecute anybody. I'm literally a witness with a gun who drives a black and white taxi cab. I arrest a suspect and take him to the magistrate then write a report detailing what I witnessed and heard. The DA reads my report and determines there is enough evidence to prosecute the guy or not.

[Syntosi]

@JackBnymble No you misunderstand me. I am not talking about prosecution at all, I am talking about if the police even process cases or not. Even if the DA rejects the charges you would still have cleared the case and been recorded in these statistics. A failed cleared case means that something was reported to the police and then nothing happened. Perhaps the suspect was still unknown or perhaps there was not enough evidence or whatever. Point is that it is specifically the police that did not do their job, not the DA or any other group.

Only 61.6% of homicides and 34.5% of rapes are processed fully by the police. Every other case for some reason or another got stuck within the police bureaucracy or something and was never concluded. And as I said before, the numbers only gets worse from here if I go on to the next categories. The police in USA is simply not doing its job, objectively speaking. This is your job, and its being unfulfilled.

[JackBnymble]

Oh. You're talking about a cop just not arresting someone because he doesn't want to bother or he's too lazy to do a report? I got you. Yeah there's a few of them like that I guess.

My state has "officer discretion" but it isn't unlimited discretion. I can be prosecuted for "willfully omitting, neglecting or refusing to discharge any of the duties of his office". It's called "Failure to Discharge Duties". The only discretion I have in "ignoring" a crime is for instance, there's a jaywalker and a robbery in progress. I'm allowed to ignore the jaywalker to stop the robbery.

Maybe other states are different.

[Syntosi]

@JackBnymble Well not arresting someone would indeed fall into that bracket but its a bit of a catch-all term. It covers any case that was opened but never finished for whatever reason. You for example ignoring jaywalkers does not count because it probably was not reported into the police in the first place and therefore not had a case opened.

[FunkyMonkee]

A true psycho would!
What's your science, nose picking?

[JackBnymble]

I don't know of any agency that "opens a case" on jaywalking.
Except Barney Fife in Mayberry. LOL

My point was, the courts have ruled I have the discretion to let a small crime go if there's a worse crime being comitted. If I'm on a traffic stop for some guy doing 60 in a 55, and an "active shooter at the school" call comes over the radio, I'm letting the speeder go and I'm going to the school. Don't you think it should be that way? The speeder gets a free pass that day, and society says that's OK. I believe the term used is "common sense" (Davis, K. (1975). "Police Discretion" West Publishing).

[Syntosi]

@JackBnymble I am not saying you should or should not open a case in jaywalking. I am talking about the data I have and what it actually represents. If you, as a police officer, let something slide then that is not part of these numbers (and arguably also an issue regarding if police is doing their job or not).

In a twisted way you are just admitting that I am correct as well. My argument is that the police is not doing their job. That means that in theory the police should do everything, including apprehending everyone who is jaywalking. Realistically that is impossible which means the level of enforcement we can expect from the police can't be 100% so maybe 90 or even 70% is more realistic. However, the real number is not 90 or 70. Its VERY low. Unacceptably low. So low that if we defunded the police it would barely be statistically noticeable. The truth is that the police is not doing what we are paying them for.

[Syntosi]

@FunkyMonkee Well in the current conversation with JackBnymble I am using the criminal data provided by the FBI. More specifically, it is part of this:
ucr.fbi.gov/.../crime-in-the-u.s.-2017

Again, old numbers but I am too lazy to prepare a new set when I already prepared my arguments years earlier and nothing much has changed since then. Point is that I know what I am talking about. Do you?

[FunkyMonkee]

Yes!

[Syntosi]

@FunkyMonkee Well then, lets hear it. What is your argument for or against defunding the police?

[zagor]

Then why have a legal system at all? We can all arm ourselves and settle matter ourselves, as that always works so well.

[Syntosi]

@zagor Now you are getting it! Why have a legal system at all when it is not doing what it is supposed to be doing. When the system is so corrupted that it takes more money and effort to repair it instead of replacing it with something else.

[Joshydavid25]

Even though police are an arm of the state, and will impose any unnecessary restrictions the state puts on us... Nay... In fact I think I'm these silly Liberal cities we need to allow people to carry their own weapons, and be much harsher on criminals..

[Drewtate]

It's funny liberal cities just get worse with crime.

[Joshydavid25]

Exactly.. I don't know what they hope to accomplish by basically letting criminals do what they want almost..

[MisterWack]

Defund the police departments that have corruptions (Los Angeles Police Department, anyone?)

Seriously, we should be shifting funds into the education & training of our police officers to be less brute force and more effective. So many innocent people died from police brutality, police raids, crossfire, and more. There should be less funds going to the actual department and more going more into how we train them.

Another important note: School shootings aren’t going to be solved since no politician wants to get rid of their big NRA money check in favor of saving American children lives…. So we should train bodyguards & policemen how to handle that sort of stressful situation better and navigate it properly to avoid the loss of innocent people including faculty.

Defund, move the funds to education. Don’t cut off all the funding obviously, lessen it and use it in fields where the force will benefit therefore so will the American people.

[JackBnymble]

The NRA hasn't been a thing for 20 years, grandpa. I think they stopped lobbying in 2004 or thereabout. After LaPierre left they filed bankruptcy. About all they can manage nowadays is bitching on TV interviews about "unconstitutional gun laws". The NRA hasn't had the funds to influence anything in a decade.

[JackBnymble]

Sure. Go ahead.
Don't whine to the news crew that it took me 50 minutes to get there after you dialed 9-1-1.
Sorry your family was killed or your wife raped 20 minutes after you dialed.
Or that the home invasion was over half hour before I got there and all your shit is gone.
Budgets are a cruel mistress.

[Anonymous]

Until people in urban areas are skilled and prepared to defend themselfs until the sheriff shows up they best keep their police.

To clarify thou Police work for Local or State goverment. There are not 'federal' police under or federal Constitutional system, all 'federal' agencies acting in said capacity are traitors that absolute should get 0 funds. As state policing powers represents a vital check upon the usurpation of near non-existent Federal Federal domestic powers.

[D_Bone_Steak]

It's just another one of those changes that everyone with a brain predicted the results of it, and then it came true.

[JacobJordan]

Sounds good until the libtards need to report a crime

[findacure4wokeness]

BLM should be put in a state with no emergency services. let them kill each other for all I care. The more you help POC the most they hate you for it.

[AviatorTom]

Big NAY!!! Without police, there would be total anarchy and chaos.

[RedInnocent69]

Defund the police doesn’t actually mean defund the police. It means defund certain police that departments in desperate need of overhaul and replacement by actual law abiding enforcement authorities that follow and respect the rule of law.

[Anonymous]

no. and if i see anyone on here saying yes, i hope they know what that truly means and when they actually need the police and they won't be there.

[ApplePie409]

The moronic liberals that advocated for this, are now saying the conservatives want it. LOL

[DryGermanGuy]

Marjorie Traitor-Greene is the one constantly asking to defund the police. Sooo...

[DryGermanGuy]

So, according to all the statistical data, right wing media is just a concerted lie about crime:

https://youtu.be/DuHEG-Y46ao?si=R748L9Pu5IXNPKRQ

[chrissykerdock]

defunding the poliice is a scam which means more raping of women

[ManInChains]

Nay, we need law and order to prevent the chaos Women keep voting for

[Staximus]

Any idiot politician that pushes the "defund the police" agenda should be denied police protection and then we'll see how long that bullshit lasts

[John_Cobretti]

I guess it's easy to ask for defunding police when your only brush with the law is playing Grand Theft Auto.

[Anonymous]

I don't think defunding the police is the answer. I think the police needs thorough training and a mental evaluation before being put in the force.

[Chazmatazz269]

Not to mention ONGOING training, mental health checks and mandatory breaks from the stressors of field duties.

[Knightwatch27]

A question too stupid to even entertain as far as I'm concenred. Any who seriously want that go ahead, do it and see what happens. They'll change their tune quickly.

[Meropatrick]

Now the better question why some politicians talk about defunding?

[JackBnymble]

Because they can stick that money in their pockets or redirect it to their pork projects.

[Meropatrick]

@JackBnymble 👍true

[Anonymous]

more like defund the universities, defund the media and defund the politicians

[GoodGuyBreakingBad]

Nay.

[Anonymous]

The police unions need to be reformed but defending will not have the effect they think it will.

[RavVid]

Do t if you want bad people to run things

[handsomelad70]

H**L NO !!! Who'd arrest the bad guys?

[exitseven]

defund the IRS.

[jahaims]

The opposite