Trump Vs Zelensky. Who's Right?

[Ladsin2]

They had a pretty public argument today. If both are right who's more right?

Trump

Zelensky

Neither

[WhiteSteve]

Zelenskyy. This whole thing seemed obviously staged in order to get a response out of Zelenskyy (they didn’t get the one I think they wanted) so they could reframe the situation from “our ally who we’ve been aiding in their defense against a clear-cut, no-chance-they’re-in-the-right aggressor like Russia is” to “look at this ingrate! How dare he expect anything from America without crawling into the Oval Office on his knees, and genuflecting before the great King Donald The First?”

The America I used to know and could be proud of didn’t stand for shit like what Putin is trying to do, and they SURE AS SHIT didn’t try to “both sides” the situation. Stand up for your friends, and stand up to bullies. That’s what a real “alpha male” would do, for all the hypermasculine posturing MAGA seems into. The fact that they’re even coming to the table with any sort of “Let’s hear Putin out” attitude is APPALLING. This is a time in world history where it’s incumbent upon us and the rest of the decent world to stand up and say “NO, ABSOLUTELY FUCKING NOT.” to Putin. Anything short of backing him into a corner, and hopefully taking him out, is a massive, MASSIVE geopolitical failure. You don’t negotiate with terrorists.

A choice is before us: do we stand with democracy? Or with autocracy? And I fear we’re choosing to align ourselves with the latter, which is a complete abandonment of everything I used to believe America stood for. This was maybe the most disgraceful thing I’ve ever seen American politics, and that’s REALLY saying something.

[Ladsin2]

That's certainly a position, but Ukraine isn't our friend or ally. They're not a member of any treaties for defense we've negotiated. Out of the kindness of our hearts we've been supporting them without any obligation to do so. Our kindness has to end somewhere, especially when the recipient of that kindness is not appreciative of it.

[WhiteSteve]

We’re all part of the NPT from The Budapest Memorandum of 1994. President Kravchuk, along with Russian President Boris Yeltsin and our own Billy Clint, all signed on in the interest of non-proliferation of nukes, etc. Russia is in direct violation of this agreement with its Crimean annexation a decade ago, actually. Ukraine doesn’t have to be NATO to be an ally, or at least a friendly acquaintance. Russia, until yesterday, I’ve been told my entire life was “the enemy”, and they’ve done enough in that time that I believe this to be the correct stance.

We live in the modern world, and we’re fully capable of not just resigning ourselves to “welp, sometimes there are going to be wars and it is what it is.” That absolutely does NOT have to be the reality. We choose to allow it to be.

Also, “the kindness of our hearts” should be the driving force behind 90%+ of what we do in life. We have to stop approaching everything like it’s some kind of business/monetary transaction, that’s a wholly disgusting mindset to walk through life with.

[WhiteSteve]

World geopolitical order and stability are at stake. America is the World Police, unless we want to join the bad guys, which it seems like that’s what’s happening. Anything other than a strong, forceful response to Putin is the wrong move, and serves as a green light to not only Russia, but China and wherever else gets the itch. If we can maintain this in the cheapest possible way by just giving money to Ukraine, like the previous administration did, that’s optimal.

But we cannot —CANNOT— look at this in any sort of “how much is this gonna cost us?” kind of way. This isn’t the time for that. Putin needs to be stopped dead in his tracks, and a message sent to any other world leader with designs on territorial expansion. The “territorial expansion” age of Earth has to be over with, period, point blank. And we’re the toughest kid on the block, so it’s incumbent upon us to step up and defend our weaker neighbors for the greater good of the global neighborhood.

Oh, and Zelenskyy being “unappreciative” is a completely MAGA-manufactured red herring. What Trump wants to do is a slap in the face to what America used to stand for, and to do it, he needs to sour Americans on an easily sympathize-able actor like Ukraine. He wants to do the bad guy thing, but look like a hero, so he needs to change the American narrative about Ukraine, and make Zelenskyy out as a villain, which is preposterous on its face, but a whole lot of Americans are so deep in the MAGA brainwash that he just might pull it off.

[Ladsin2]

If it's the case that we have any obligations then we've been ignoring them since the Obama administration. If it's the case that we've been meeting our obligations by providing material support then I see no reason that has to proceed indefinitely.

I completely disagree on the issue of cost. We always have to ask the cost and benefits of our actions. Thus far we have had a really good cost to benefit ratio on our expenditure in Ukraine. If we continue that expense will we incur the same results? I don't think so. I believe that we're at the point of diminishing returns.

As far as the lack of appreciation. He campaigned against the present POTUS and is now arguing with him in public. That is clearly a lack of appreciation on the global stage. I see no way around that.

[WhiteSteve]

Yeah, Obama should’ve done more to ensure Ukraine’s security and NATO inclusion. I liked Obama, but that was a ball-drop on his part. But we’re where we are, and I definitely feel it’s incumbent upon us to proceed as we’ve been proceeding for the sake of world security. All these ideas of American isolationism, in 2025, are an absolute pipe dream. Everything falls apart if we step away from our role as a global security guard. The world doesn’t just go on as it is today, and all that changes is we keep our shit in-house and don’t deal with anyone else and just swim in vaults of gold coins like Scrooge McDuck all day. Russia, and more importantly CHINA, are popping champagne bottles this weekend. This is an unforced error like I’ve never seen before.

So does cost outweigh decency to you? “Sorry, we’d help you out, but we have this big gold statue of Trump we want to build in Gaza that we need the money for, so good luck and Godspeed!”, really?

Zelenskyy is trying to save his country. This dude is doing real deal heroic shit. And we’ve got idiots worried about what he’s wearing to the Oval Office, days after Elon is in there looking like one of those dozen or so kids from everyone’s high school who wore trenchcoats and played Magic: The Gathering in the cafeteria. Zelenskyy had reason to be thankful to the Biden administration, and more so, reason to believe the fate of his country had a better outlook under a Harris regime. Harris called this very thing out in the debate, the whole “you say you’ll end the war right away because you’ll just give Putin whatever he wants” because of his perceived friendship or admiration or whatever of a dictator “who would eat [Trump] for lunch.”

[WhiteSteve]

Zelenskyy is just looking for security guarantees, because Putin hasn’t honored ceasefires in the past. This isn’t out of nowhere. I don’t know why we want him to walk into the White House “yes, sir, thank you, sir, you’re the greatest, sir, may I shine your shoes, sir?” Again, Trump before this meeting was already calling him a dictator a week ago. No apology for that.

Trump hasn’t been very respectful to Zelenskyy, and the fact that we’re even approaching this as a negotiation is PREPOSTEROUS, this is literally “negotiating with terrorists”, to sit down at a table with Putin as if he’s an equally legitimately aggrieved party in any of this.

That’s like if someone broke into your house, stole $1,000 in cash, you catch them and are trying to fight them to get your money back, the cops show up as you’re both rolling around on your front lawn, and they say “STOP IT! KNOCK IT OFF, BOTH OF YOU! Now sit down over here….”, and after you explain the situation, the cops say “ok, well, let’s think about who gets to keep what of this $1,000.” It shouldn’t be a conversation. You get all of your money back, the burglar gets arrested and tried. As it should be.

This just feels like a wrestling heel-turn, and we’re joining the New Axis of America/Russia/China/North Korea. Just weird to be wearing the black hat now.

[Ladsin2]

What is the extent of our security guarantees then? I don't want to get involved in a war with Russia over Ukraine and don't think we're obligated to do so. I think we've met and exceeded our obligations and are now trying to draw an end to the war. I agree with isolationism being rather humorous in the current world. The reason I want to draw back from Europe is so we can focus on China. I believe Europeans should stand up and take more security control of their country so we can focus on the bigger threat.

Yes, cost can certainly outweigh decency. If decency leads to death should you still be decent? Not in my estimation.

Again, I think this is an interesting failure at noticing the distinction between people who are coming to ask us for things and people who are not. Zelensky is asking us to provide more material support and protect his nation. When you're asking for something that important you should be presentable, appreciative, and reasonable. If you want to argue with the person you're asking favors from you shouldn't do it in public to pressure or damage the person you're asking favors of. You should do it in private.

[Anonymous]

Trump was right, and Zelensky kind of proved it with his inability to negotiate diplomatically from a position of weakness.

Illustrating why he was unable to keep or make peace with Putin.

Zelensky was kind of a hot head like John Adam's, if congress has not sent John Adams to a useless country to let Franklin do the job without him we would have lost the American revolution.

Trump was trying to tell him this was not appropriate that they could not discuss what needed discussing.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/0XPfIjtjcvA

Regardless decorum is important you don't go into someone's house in need of something and lecture them publicly if you expect to get anything out of them.

He needed to keep his mouth shut, Trump could have told him in private how he would get everything he was asking for, that even the resources he was signing over would really remain Ukrainian (Americans never use American labor overseas due to being too costly).

Publicly however Zelensky has to acknowledge Russia is the superior power and agree to their terms. Not only is that the truth in practice, it is the only way Ukraine will ever be in a position to get what they want.

[Syntosi]

Well that is one way to read into the situation. Its the wrong way, mind you. But certainly A way.

[Opinion Owner]

@Syntosi Given the history of your opinions of trump, it is rather clear you don't think like him and therefore would have no idea how to read into the situation.

[Syntosi]

... What makes you think that during the press briefing was a good time to try re-negotiate the deal? You are right, that is something only an idiot would think of and he put on a show that demonstrated his incompetence and general stupidity as a result.

Having the US president engaging in a shouting match like that in their own venue is pathetic. Even if you want to argue that it is Zelenskys fault (I disagree) but that just means that Trump should not have invited him to an official press briefing like that. This was a clown show at Americas expense no matter how you twist it.

[Opinion Owner]

@Syntosi I watched the video, it was never Trump that tried to renegotiate.

[Anonymous]

Trump is absolutely right. Zelenskyy is in no position to make demands

he has no country left. he has no men left to fight for Ukraine. he has no women left to repopulate Ukraine and he has the audacity to demand more money

Zelensky is that annoying kid in the street who talks shit, throws rocks at the neighbor's house etc. the neighbor comes out with a steamroller and the annoying kid runs back his big brother who doesn't want to fight anymore

[dreamstar72]

The US needs to stop funding other countries countries, we have our own problems. Plus we need to keep our nose out of other countries f wars.

[DrPepper12]

Slava ukrana

[Ladsin2]

Any thoughts about the Jews? I think you're repurposing an idea that you disagree with which I find rather humorous honestly.

[DrPepper12]

Yeah. Israel is a genocidal apartheid state led by a war criminal.

[Anonymous]

Zelensky 100%

Trump and Vance look the fools because they are the fools.

[Ladsin2]

What did they say in that argument that was foolish?

[Opinion Owner]

Vance started in on him - an invited guest- asking why he was not wearing a suit. Was asking him if he has said thank you. He has said thank you 33 times to date before the meeting. There are fact check articles on this.
They refused to answer his questions instead loudly speaking over his answers with "You aren't in any position... sign the mineral rights to us. Musk needs his tesla batteries. And Canada is going to cut us off." BS

If you can't read all the rest between the lines. I can't help you.

Trump has a well documented childhood obsession with dictators. hilter specifically. He's play acting but doesn't have the balls. So he is publicly kissing putins *ss to borrow some.

[Ladsin2]

Lol alrighty then. Thanks for the response.

[BarryLiverstone]

Both failed. The expectation was a signed agreement and that didn’t occur.

[Jerre]

Zelenskyy came to the Trump. Meeting after Democrats had talked to Zelenskyy. He wanted 300 billion dollars and was not prepared to sing the Mineral agreement Trump’s Admin had put together. Zalenskyy fucked up everything!

[Anonymous]

Does it count as Trump being there if Putin's hand is up his ass and Putin is actually doing the talking?

[Pterodon]

Ukraine should kiss our ass for the taxpayer money we sent. I wouldn’t have sent one dime

[jshm2]

Rubio was right. All three were wrong and should have shut the fuck up, like him.

[molonski2]

I think both are in some ways..

[Anonymous]

Trump will claim he won the argument.

[Anonymous]

Zielinskyy will claim he won the argument.

[Syntosi]

A lot of people will claim he won the argument. I happen to agree.

[seeyounexttuesday]

Trump.