Is Universal Basic Income a sinister lie?

[IHaveRespawned]

A good friend told me once, the only way to achieve equity is in the ruins.

There is a push for universal basic income due to job losses from AI. It sounds good on the surface, but it is actually a sinister lie.

Think about it this way, if AI is supposed to eliminate so many jobs and work, will there even be an economical market to even spend your money towards? If you eliminate so many specialties and fields of work, there will be less ways to spend your money. With less ways to make or spend your money, it will level the "playing field". It will essentially render your money useless. Your "money" will essentially become ration stamps. There will be no more middle class. You will have the elite you hand your ration stamps to and the poor.

Yes

No

[Anonymous]

If its truly universal you are redefining the starting goal. Lets say we all have $1000 per month to spend on top of what we earn. That means everyone has a disposable income.

Sounds awesome right? Well not so fast, if everyone has 1000 extra income every month they can easily afford a price increase so we'll just increase the prices accordingly and profit. Now everyones money devalued and your savings are worth much less.

But alright lets say that doesn't happen and people aren't that greedy. Lets say someone makes 2000 a month to keep it simple and could get by but had to work hard for it. Now they can just do half the work and be fine so they transition to parttime. So does everyone else. Well thats a problem because now there's no more workers so the production is no longer in balace. Shortages happen which increases the price. Suddenly people can't easily afford things anymore and begin to work more again. The prices stay up as they always do or at least fluctuate. And now my previous scenario still happens.

I just can't imagine a scenario where redefining the starting point is actually effective and not a disaster. What does however work is the kinda welfare system my country already has and I am also on. A system where those who can't work due to for example a health issue or job loss get some kind or income. Its very little so you are not better off than those working, but it does help. And most importantly not everyone gets it to incentivise the healthy to keep working. So its more like not universal basic income. And because its not universal and targeted at those who need it you aren't creating the previous problems.

[IHaveRespawned]

Yes, I am trying to convey that most human work becomes irrelevant because of AI and/or robotics, you don't have a functional economy. They say jobs will be created by AI, but at some point, that work will be valued only collectively and your individual hard skills and talents will be irrelevant. You will be a disposable asset. For example, you may need a thousand people in the future to interact and train AI with basic human language, but that is a skill almost everyone possesses and not unique to an individual or small skilled population of people. Does this make sense? When your ability to stand out and/or approach things your own way diminishes, you lose individual autonomy and the ability to have leverage when expressing grievances.

[Chazmatazz269]

You don’t understand UBI or GBI at all.
It’s actually in use in eighteen US states and over a dozen countries. Some of the more conservative states aren’t calling it “UBI”, so that they can continue to perpetuate lies and disinformation about “socialism”. However, when you understand what it is and how it actually works, then you know a rose by any other name smells as sweet.
UBI & GBI are neither sinister nor lies. It’s very real and being applied fairly effectively more commonly with every passing year. It is true that we will probably find a way to corrupt it, as we do with so many other perfectly pragmatic policies and practices. Especially in the US where the left will turn it into an entitlement program only for their favorite minority groups, and the right will ruin it just so that they can continue to claim that “socialism always fails”.
Anyone who says that is dumb as f*ck. Every western nation has effective socialist policies and practices at work. There are hundreds of communes actively and effectively practicing communism all over the world, including in the USA. Just because you can’t stop voting for people who destroy everything that they touch, that doesn’t mean that the system itself is intrinsically flawed.

[Anonymous]

Its not a lie. Its basically welfare. There id no putting the AI genie back in the bottle im afraid.

[IHaveRespawned]

No, the Pandora's box has been opened. What I am saying is with less jobs or opportunities, there will be less ways to make more money or spend that money. The ones who will have all the power will be the ones who own the infrastructure that runs it. Yes, you may benefit short term by adopting it, but think of it as an exponential curve. It will pick up and advance so quickly that even you will no longer be needed. So really, you will have the elite class and the poor. You can kiss the middle class goodbye.

[Opinion Owner]

I agree but universal basic income or social credit will bd how they keep the populace pacified. Entertainment, drugs, food etc. You think a government will worry about obese people rioting?

[IHaveRespawned]

You don't get it. Money only has value when it can buy things. If the vast majority of the population cannot provide a relevant service or product, there is nothing to exchange that money for. At least, there will be far less avenues to be able to spend money. An economy works only if there are means to both make and spend that money. If AI takes over human relevancy in most areas, leaving most of the human population unemployed and irrelevant, it will be a dystopian nightmare.

[Opinion Owner]

Dystopian nightmare for me and you. Its already started.
You will have nothing and be happy.

[exitseven]

AS usual the government is asleep at the switch with AI. There will be massive job losses and nobody is worried about what will happen to all the unemployed people. The future will not be like the Jetsons where people have a one day work week with lots of leisure time. They will just be poor.
Amazon has shed 40,000 jobs this year and other companis are doing the same. Everyone talks about the investment that tech companies are making but nobody is talking aobut why companies are spending billions on it. They are doing it to get rid of their employees.

[NaultD]

Alaska has the PFD. if you buy stocks in the stock market that gives out dividends like ExxonMobil or coke cola. We also have collective ownership of public land like national parks.

Think of it like that a share holder of a nationalized industry. It also dosen't have to be weekly, monthly basis. Could be 6 months or yearly payout. Ultimately you'd tax robots the same rate as income tax for the same production. That needs to be done with or without a UBI regardless.

Realistically right now with how high the debt is any nationalized industry would pay off the debt and maybe lower taxes for the first few century's.

[IHaveRespawned]

Yes, we have always had public right-of-way spaces like parks, nature preserves, and roads. This is nothing new. We have also had the ability as individuals to privately own/possess restricted-access spaces for ourselves for exclusive occupancy or use, usually either inherited or purchased through money we earn. There are a limited group of people who are disabled and may receive special government assistance, but it isn't universal. It is a mixed economy.
The middle class has always been the beacon of prosperity. It provides opportunities for one to afford some comforts and luxuries without having to be an elite, wealthy individual. It provides a pathway for advancement. Can you imagine if that pathway disappears? What will motivate the average, everyday person to pursue advancement or move up the ladder of achievement?

If you remove those rungs from the ladder, the poor will remain poor and the rich will remain rich and get richer. If you eliminate the opportunities for entrepreneurship and the varieties and options for those to have autonomy in generating revenue, you will then limit the means to make and spend money. You will eliminate choice and individuality, thus, you will relinquish your individual freedoms. Your ability to have influence, speak up, challenge grievances, and possess leverage will disappear. You will essentially hand your fate into the elite's hands to decide for you.
With eliminating the means to have autonomy with the varieties of jobs and specialties, you will be limiting your ways of being able to generate income beyond the basic universal income.

[NaultD]

The government is going to tax any entrepreneurship regardless. So do you want it in people's hands or governments hands? That's how the Republican governor sold the PFD to the voters.

I got $1000 last October. Paid my bills went to work with a little extra hop in my step. Had a nice dinner. Saved a little. It's not that big of a deal.

Like I said entrepreneurs have been giving out dividends for shareholders since the beginning of the stock market.

A. I is going to be an existential crisis for our traditional values of work.

https://youtu.be/kl39KHS07Xc?si=FeDqYHI-enqV4CA6

[IHaveRespawned]

I am not talking about just shareholders, investors, or ultra-wealthy entrepreneurs. For an example, what if you are a web developer like myself and seek to start your own, small, independent web development business? If AI eliminates the need for me as a human web developer (which it already is in the process of doing), it would have just eliminated an avenue for me to have my own business with little to no upfront capital requirement. With each pathway it consumes, the less pathways I have to dig myself out of paycheck-to-paycheck living and less opportunities for me to be my own boss. Yes, trades are thriving, but if only a limited amount of relevant career pursuits are remaining, it will become very saturated. You can only need so many plumbers and electricians. And overtime, who's to say AI and robotics won't threaten these jobs in our lifetimes?
We may create jobs in AI, but you can only do so much before AI is able to take over from there.

[NaultD]

You are misunderstanding me.

YOU become a shareholder by default. Like I am a shareholder of the alaska pfd by being a resident.

Lets say there is a AI UBI and get $X amout whatever. You take that $X amount and invest into your own education. Take that money to take a leave from work and go back to school. Take the money and hire a babysitter to take more hours at work and go to school too. It's called liquidity for a reason.

[NaultD]

It's a way for everyday people to become a shareholder and think like a shareholder and become investors in our government of the people by the people. Is my ultimate goal for any UBI.

"Taxation if theft." Is a all too common sentiment and people are losing faith in voting. I don't think ubi is an end all be all solution but a nessesity in the future for this new age we are vastly unprepared for.

[IHaveRespawned]

It's a way for people to be primarily reliant on government distributions as their primary source of income without a means to make any additional income as those opportunities will be limited or cease to exist because of AI takeover. Without any additional ways to make money, your options of ways to spend money will also be limited, as most others will also be limited on ways to make additional income. Trade will be only possible with a limited few. You will be stuck being a limited consumer with the other 90-something percent of the population. You want to express a grievance and bite the hand that feeds you? Your handlers will just pull back some of your ration stamps, I mean *cough cough* "universal basic income". You think others will come to your aid and risk losing their ration stamps too? Think again. Don't put your destiny into elite, controlling class' future.

[IHaveRespawned]

... oh, and by the way, the only reason you really benefit from this is because you have avenues to also spend that money. At least right now, there are still many trades that have humans that would be willing to accept that money in exchange for a product or service and turn around and spend it. It is a cycle. That is what creates an economy. But what happens when most of the population is irrelevant to provide a service or product? You will have less avenues for people to accept your money and spend it and it breaks the cycle.

[NaultD]

Like I said alaska had it with its oil and share holders of ExxonMobil and coke cola for like 100 years now.

You are a shareholder and you get a share of the profits. Maybe we start lowering taxes for starters and over time we the people get paid out.

[IHaveRespawned]

And I don't think you are understanding what I am saying either. What gives money its value? Your ability to spend it on things in exchange for something, right? What happens when you don't have anything to spend it on? That value drops to nothing. That is what I am trying to get across to you. When you eliminate so many routes to spend your money (aka 90 percent of the population who cannot provide a relevant skill or product in exchange for that money), any concept of money becomes useless. What you will get instead is ration stamps to spend on the limited choices (aka the elitist-ran mega stores and services) and that is it. You get it now?

[NaultD]

I have faith in the common neighbors i call peers.

Like I said $1000 or even $2000 in alaska. Should have been $3000 last October but budget cute to federal schooling. So we cut it to $1000.

Our national debt is too high to earnestly consider any type of national ubi.

So what is the common family to do when already struggling and the top entrepreneurs are investing top dollar to eliminate labor?

[IHaveRespawned]

That is the problem the reliance of this so-called "UBI" as the sole source of income will cause. It will pretty much collapse society and place more power into the hands of rulers and the elite. If you don't have any ways to dig out of that reliance with some relevant meaning to society, you are screwed. You just take whatever from the hand that feeds you out of desperation. With AI eliminating your chances to rise up and be a relevant influence, you are powerless. You are just stuck as a desperate consumer. Yeah, people can rise up, but it isn't a straightforward, cut-and-dry way you leftist socialists and communists fantasize about.
Do you even understand the hardware and power requirements of AI? Good luck being able to upfront the cost of a large racks of hardware, power, and cooling systems. Fuck, I spent over $1000 on a machine that can hardly run a low-level model locally. Most people are using 3rd party proprietary AI services. All we are doing is training their models and putting more money into their pockets. Again, the people who will ultimately be in control is the elite who can afford the hardware, consumption, infrastructure, and equipment.

[NaultD]

How usa tends to use any government assistance in the most ass backwards way possible, Absolutely.

If we had a universal health care system compared to our obama care system we would save like $450 billion.

[IHaveRespawned]

Well the discussion isn't about healthcare. This discussion is regarding the sole reliance on what people believe is UBI, AI consuming most facets of jobs and careers, and the inability to dig out of a dystopian mess once that happens.

[NaultD]

It's not supposed to be the only income at least the start.

Like I said alaska pfd got a $1000 from the day I was born. No fucking way I'm living off of that alone. My parents made it a point to pay the bills. clothes for the brutal winter, nice dinner and then time for me to ask for a new video game.

Let's start from this mind set.

[IHaveRespawned]

Lol, and that is what you still cannot comprehend. That is because there is still an economy and job market (despite it deteriorating in a state of peril) and a demand for human trade. When most of the everyday American population is irrelevant in the economy and workforce, you will be poor and impoverished like everyone else will be.

[NaultD]

I've got over a half a million in the stock market from generational wealth. I'm also alaskan native with 150 stocks of doyon shareholding.

I'm very very extremely privileged and just wish every peer can have the same opportunities i have for raising tides raises all boats.

I did absolutely nothing yet I'm the richest person in my workplace because my grandmother bought property in the 70s and everyone else died and I'm the one who sold it off.

Not that different then a lottery ticket in a society way.

[BonzoInBitburg]

People who are afraid of AI don't understand that this is an opportunity like no other. It is very overrated in the short term and very underrated in the long term. Learn how to use it to make money and the opportunities are endless. We are so lucky to be alive to take advantage of this.

[lightbulb27]

I think most people are ok going up to an auto checkout at grocery with occasional help from one person that scrambles around. All those jobs displaced...

problem is it just forces some people onto govt welfare if don't find other work and that is a painful transition.

we are in that painful transition.

its really insane what we are doing... all this energy and AI to replace ourselves...

[888theGreat]

With AI you are looking at 56% to 75% unemployment , so yes they will have to give Universal Income or products built by Robots and AI won't be bought. No job means no money , and no money means no purchases. They are cutting their noses off spite their Face.

[beefcakebradybatson]

UBI is a way of vastly reducing poverty and being sure no citizen lives in squalour. Of course, Trumpsters, who lack human decency and compassion, oppose UBI.

[Jackblue]

It will be necessary eventually because soon there will be little work available for humans, right now it may be premature.

[AngryCarl2]

The economy doesn't work unless people have money to spend. This is the central paradox of capitalism.

[Anonymous]

Even more than that why keep the people at all, cull themwill be the eventual realization unless you are a child the elites can molest or a breeder willing to keep the supply fresh

[Sal_Monella]

Who pays for that? The Rich?

[Telekinetic-Potato]

Rrruuuuusssiia

[noohair]

It is pay for not working

[Cidknee]

1984