Are Ukrainians a distinct nation or fundamentally part of a greater Russian people?

[MerakSahibi]

Nowadays, it is worth asking whether it is the state that creates the nation.

Take Bavaria, for example. You know Bayern Munich; it represents the German state of Bavaria. If Bavaria were separated and turned into an independent country, would Bavarians suddenly become a separate nation, or would they still be Germans?

The genetic difference between a Russian from Moscow and a Ukrainian from Kyiv is smaller than the difference between a Saxon and a Bavarian.

When people think of Bavaria, they think of its distinctive green feathered hats and traditional clothing, its Catholic population, its industry, and its unique accent. As a state within Germany, Bavaria differs considerably from the rest of the country. By contrast, many of the things presented as symbols of Ukraine are also associated with Russia. There may be regional differences, of course—it is, after all, a border region. The word "Ukraine" literally means "borderland," the southwestern frontier of Russia.

Historically, there had never been a Ukrainian state, whereas Bavaria did exist as a state and was initially reluctant to join German unification. The region over which the Crimean War was fought was once home to the Crimean Khanate. After the collapse of the Golden Horde, first the Dasht-i Kipchak and then Crimea came under Russian control, and Russians—who, for some reason, would later come to be called Ukrainians—were settled in these territories.

According to this view, Western powers constructed a Ukrainian identity through a divide-and-rule strategy, much like Napoleon did in Egypt. (In fact, the Russians used a similar strategy by separating Azerbaijan from Iran, even though Azerbaijan had naturally been part of Iran.)

Additional note: It was not Russia but the Western bloc that, by bringing about the collapse of the Soviet Union, pushed millions of Ukrainian and Moldovan women into poverty and prostitution in countries such as Turkey.

Yes, they're all descendants of Kievan Rus'

No 🇺🇸 🇮🇱

[Anonymous]

But Ukraine has had a distinct language for hundreds of years, suggesting a distinct culture. Doesn't matter if they share a common ancestry and genetics. The Germans and French both descend from the Franks. The Serbs and Croats both descend from Slavs. They are all distinct nations.

Russia just wants to expand and control as much as territory as possible. That goes back centuries, even before the communists.

[Just_Ken]

there's a genetic link from Scandinavia all the way to Ukraine.

[Just_Ken]

At one stage russia was ruled by Ukraine

[MerakSahibi]

All humans share genetic ancestry—we're all related. However, if we're talking about genetic proximity, Scandinavians are closest to other Scandinavians, followed by Northwestern Atlantic populations such as the Dutch, English, and Irish

[MerakSahibi]

[Just_Ken]

Scandinavians are closest related to each other. Norwegian are closely related to everyone from the Danes to the English on that list due to the viking age. Norwegian ruled Denmark and vice versa as well as parts of England, Ireland, Scotland, france, Holland intermixing with the populations there and taking back slaves. Through the normans they conquered parts of france, England, wales, Ireland, scily for a time, parts of spain for a time and a kingdom in Syria. The swedes went east into what is today Finland, Lithuania, latvia, Estonia, parts of poland, Russia and Ukraine trading with the eastern romans, arabs and turks along the black sea. For a time they had a pretty powerful kingdom in Kiev that ruled much of today's western Russia and where the first cities built by the greeks in Ukraine are.

[Just_Ken]

By the end of the viking age scandavian territory if you added together all its kingdoms or empires stretch from the Americas all the way to the black sea and in the Mediterranean. Around 1000 Ad for about 100 years Norman's of viking descent were fighting Varangins in service to the byzantine empire in southern italy. Famously Harold Hadrada fought with them against the arabs and against them.

[MerakSahibi]

The people who organized the East Slavs and united them under a single political authority were Viking rulers. According to one tradition, their leader was called Rus. However, this only applied to the ruling elite. A dynasty does not represent the population as a whole. Genetically and linguistically, even if they spoke the same language, the ruling class often spoke a distinct dialect associated with their own social stratum.

History is the graveyard of aristocrats. Don't expect the relatively small ruling class and military elites to have had an overwhelmingly large genetic impact on the general population.

In other words, the genetic relationships among these people would probably have been broadly similar even without the Viking conquest. Nineteenth-century anthropologists liked to explain genetics through physical appearance, but that approach is no longer considered reliable. I don't think the Irish and Norwegians look particularly alike, yet they are genetically quite close, even though one is Celtic and the other Germanic. The Celts themselves are associated with the Hallstatt culture, which originated in Central Europe and was already quite closely related to the Germanic populations.

Overall, Europeans are a mixture of Western Hunter-Gatherers, Early European Farmers (Neolithic farmers), and Steppe pastoralists. The proportions simply vary from one population to another

[Just_Ken]

But like you showed with DNA graft this was true of the vikings in western Europe. They bred with the locals and were eventually absorbed into native populations. For instance in England the rulers of England descendants of norman vikings didn't speak English for 400 years. Elite Gallowglass warriors, descendants of vikings that settled in Scotland spoke Gaelic and this continued in Ireland where theyd fight for and against their Norman cousins.

[Just_Ken]

You look at a lot of Russian & Ukrainian culture & religion a lot was taken back there by varangian vetreans

[Agape93]

They're their own distinct nation. They have been for decades.

[KostasKouvalis]

Pretty much. My mom is always saying it's stupid that they're fighting 'cuz they're the same people

[canamlusciouslad73]

Distinct nation with their own language, history and customs.

[FrodoSkywalker007]

Interesting US and Israel flags.

[Anonymous]

Part of it