Is the capacity for empathy part of the requirements for being designated as human?

[msc545]

[Coercion_Is_Trauma]

I think that this is one of the single best rules to decide who is more human and who more animal. Empathy is felt and not done, and cannot be faked.

I think almost nobody alive has a total lack of it. I believe most psychopaths are learned psychopaths. Most can awaken empathy, like Beth Thomas did. Most serial killers had extremely abusive childhoods. Their parents were shit so their nervous system is wired as if that's normal, if parent-child relationships are extremely abusive then there's no second thought about abusing strangers.

I should probably say rewired because all babies scream when hurt, thus all are capable of feeling hurt, and most learned psychopaths have trouble feeling hurt (hence punishments don't scare them either).

But of course I'm just a keyboard crusader, nothing i say is scientific.

I think, even when parents are good people and commit mistakes and we instantly forgive because they seemingly had a reason, it is just the same as a natural disaster making us lose everything and then bypassing it with refusal to grieve. i think our nervous system also gets wired to repeat those same mistakes of our parents, and to treat others as if making them lose everything is no big deal.

I think obsessive forgiveness is as slippery of a slope toward psychopathy as obsessive vengeance is. Sort of two sides of the same.. blade. Both refuse to feel hurt, like they are allergic to sorrow and grief. I am not sure if the idea that "sadness raises cortisol" is what contributed to the refusal to grief or it is just a convenient excuse that the good old ego found just like it used religion in the past. I'd even offer a lot of people to think of themselves as jesuses as a means to cure artificial psychopathy. It seems easier (and possible in the first place) to quit bad habits if we believe that at the core we are innocent, and all our bad behavior learned and inherited does not truly belong to us, and then we can feel sorrow (psychologically crucified) for what has taught it to us (feel disgusted by our parents doing it). That's probably somewhat effective to rewrite the subconscious unlike trying to fight our own emotions under whose influence we act out our parents. The emotion is ours but the payload they carry isn't, that's probably difficult to believe in. It probably takes a great amount of faith to #1 admit that our wrong doing is truly wrong and #2 simultaneously believe that our true nature is purer. Because that induces sorrow, it means we were ruined. Which causes pain that a lot of people fear, it's like being crucified, but this psychological blood also purifies us...

I'm sure i sound like should jump onto some stack of pills at this point...

I have this question on my mind now; what about traumatized people who struggle to feel their own emotions, let alone those of another? They are functionally like psychopaths, when children observe them they learn to be the same, without trying to copy anyone.

[msc545]

Some interesting set of explanations. Let me just short-circuit a little bit. There is an emerging scientific theory that suggests that an abundance of mirror neurons promotes empathy by their very function. A lack of mirror neurons, which is also possible, promotes sadism and a lack of empathy. Literally an inability to be empathic because of a lack of mirror neurons. This is necessarily proven by any means, but it's an interesting sort of hypothesis.

[Coercion_Is_Trauma]

Well thanks, i guess you just made me realize another crucial part of my upbringing: all forms of copying anyone in any shape or form, any speach, action, thought, all was punished for not being original. I think, maybe willingly now being hurt about it and telling myself "that was a wrong kind of upbringing... it is totally natural for children to imitate others... i should feel hurt by it, and should stop brainwashing myself that i did something wrong by copying others..." will restore some mirror neurons or something. I mean this lightly and figuratively. Maybe my mirror neurons have been used as a weapon to make me run away from sensing any mirrorness...

But i think a version of this is ubiquitous. Everywhere in the world people say "do as i say not as i do" either that or parents fake doing things, for example fake being nice while their body shows contempt... the child also picks it up and copies the contempt, not the niceness, because it's not a conscious choice to copy others, is it? It is like automated.

And it is supposed to be for good. I have read about yequana people whose children of all age ranges play together and there is zero malicious behaving or thinking, they just copy one another and nobody is paranoid about plagiarism.

[msc545]

I think you're going off on a little bit of a tangent here.

[MrChinaski]

Well it sure has heck isn't a requirement to be a GaG member.

[msc545]

Indeed, it's demonstrably not a requirement.

[thegreenyogi]

Whether it's required or not being empathetic makes one a better human for sure in my opinion.

[NathanDavis]

no... humans are not meant to be perfect

we do have flaws

[msc545]

You don't have to be perfect. You just have to have the capacity for some empathy.

[NathanDavis]

sure... but if empathy is one of the requirements

then how many more will be required... and just missing one of them dehumanizes you?

the Nazi already tried something like that... most of the world didn't like it one bit

[msc545]

None of us who actually have any empathy are going to do anything to those of you who do not. If anything, you are the people who are going to commit crimes against us. Nazis are a great example of people who had no empathy for anyone.

[NathanDavis]

many and plenty of the soldiers who defeated the Germans, after both wars... first and second

went on later and decided to rape, murder, torture and abuse German women who were defenseless

and so... would you say that the British, French, Americans and many other lacked empathy as well? or only the Nazi

it would be quite naive to say that only the Nazi lacked empathy, while every other crime in war was "the empathetic side"

how so? by principle? reductionism? simplicity?

awareness and actions are not the same thing... and definitely not the same factors

extreme views do not help anybody nor any cause... and because of this, there's a fault

only someone who lacks humanity would dehumanize another human...

[msc545]

Nazis tortured people, put them in concentration camps, and killed them in gas chambers. I would call that a distinct lack of empathy, yeah.

[NathanDavis]

and those from Britain, France, USA, elsewhere... who tortured, abused, raped and murdered women and children after the won the war...

what do you call that? heroism? empathy? spoils of war?

or "not distinct enough lack of empathy" ?

[msc545]

I'm not aware of that happened. It was obviously not publicized very widely. I kind of think the Nazis brought it on themselves. That is not to say I approve of it

[NathanDavis]

"you brought it on yourself"

that doesn't sound so empathetic...

[msc545]

First of all, there is no proof for what you are alleging. If it actually happened then yes of course I feel empathy toward the victims of it. Secondly, I am not required to be empathic in all situations.

[msc545]

Lastly, I don't think you realize how literally painful empathy really is for the empathic person. I don't expect you to understand that but take my word for it. It hurts.

[NathanDavis]

there's proof and evidence as well

it's not a matter of whether or not we want to believe it

there's plenty of documentation about it... in fact The Treaty of Versailles also ended a lot of the abuse inflicted on the defeated side, by the winning side

now, I understand that not everyone is into history but these are not matters of " I don't know about it so it did not happen" and just deny reality

[Ill_made_Knight]

I would hope so, but clearly it's not unless you want an altered basic definition

[itss_lily]

i would say so