Can Everything Be Forgiven?

[Anonymous]

This all started years ago with Tiger Woods. I was visiting my friend and we were talking about the then alleged affairs Woods had with dozens of women meanwhile his wife and children were presumably elsewhere. I told my friend, I couldn't have forgiven him for all of his transgressions and know I would have left him immediately because this wasn't a single moment of weakness, this was repeated knowing action by an adult with a family. He not only put himself at risk, he put his wife at risk. My friend then surprised me by saying something to the effect of well, when you're in a marriage, you have to learn to forgive. So I asked her, as her friend, if my husband had cheated on me with 20 women, she would forgive him or expect me to? Really? My mind was blown and ever since these stories that have popped up over the years, she pulls the, 'you should forgive them card,' and for her there is nothing that cannot be forgiven.

I just don't believe that everything can be forgiven. Things like molestation, rape, physical abuse, abuse of children, and certain types of killing (ex. accidental killing like you fell asleep and hit someone while driving vs. you planned someone's murder for weeks) cannot be forgiven. Most things, a person can come back from, they can make changes, they can get better and prove that they deserve forgiveness and I am happy to oblige, but how do you make sense of and reconcile the act of abusing a child or raping someone or intentionally killing someone? I often feel like there is this additional guilt placed on the shoulders of victims that they have to be some type of bigger person and learn to forgive, but I just don't feel in certain circumstances, it should be offered up.

I've often heard that the forgiveness is for you, not them, but to me that doesn't really make much sense. When someone harms you in such a fashion, you have that anger, that pain, that hurt with you, but hopefully, you get help, you get support, you try your best to move on to the best of your abilities. It is the love of family and friends that nourishes a person in that time and for a lifetime. To me, that is what is for you and is going to help you. That is the healing, for you. Someone dents your car, you forgive them. Someone eats your sandwich in the office fridge, you eventually shrug it off, forgive the person. Someone completely and utterly alters the course of your life by blowing a massive hole in it to the point where you don't know how you'll ever recover, I'm not so sure those are moments that someone deserves forgiveness for. There are just some choices that are made that one cannot come back from and that I believe should not warrant forgiveness.

[Victorianna]

I loved your Take 🌹 I totally agree, some things can't be forgiven and some people don't deserve forgiveness. For the very reasons you stated.

I forgive people for a lot of things because I know there's a time I'll let them down too , and will need to ask their forgiveness.

I could never forgive any kind of betrayal

I hate to hear about any kind of emotionally, physical or sexually abuse towards children. Such evil acts are so hard to comprehend. Children are so vulnerable and they should always be able to feel loved, safe and secure. So anyone who harms children will NEVER deserve forgiveness.

[myTake Owner]

There is also this reciprocity aspect of forgiveness that you touch on. I forgive, because I also know I will or may need it from someone else in my life someday. This does not work in the case of the abuser/molester/rapist which is why I used those examples. Those go far beyond the scope of you lied to someone, or got into a fight with someone over something stupid. There are reasons we lock these people away, that we as a society protect ourselves from them. We even have laws where I am that if you were say a dad who caught someone in the act of molesting your daughter, and in your rage, killed them, its still considered self defense and you are not likely to go to jail, because you are protecting someone who couldn't protect themselves.

[Victorianna]

I agree with everything you have stated!!

I have heard cases like the one you described. To be honest , in my personal opinion anyone who abuses a child doesn't deserve to live. I absolutely abhor child abuse of any form.
I love the way you think, and you are very level -headed. I am in the same opinion as you xx

[Joshua2332]

I agree with what you said.

This is how I look at it. Humans make errors; however, we make humaerrors. Long story short it's like forgetting to take the trash out. Situations like Tiger Woods he knew it was wrong. That is not an error that is a decision. If you had the opportunity to stop it, but went with it anyways that is when I'll never forgive and get past it.

[hellionthesage]

Yes, I think people should be forgiven but that is a far cry different then ignoring the issue. For instance cheating the fact is he was a human being who had women throwing themselves at him (this is not the norm for a guy so he was most likely ill prepared for it and gave in to the temptation) and he was weak, as people often are. If he wished to redeem himself and wanted to become a better person then he should be allowed that opportunity, however that does not mean you stay by him, just because you acknowledge their flaws as person doesn't mean you have to except those flawes in your own personal life. The issue with once a cheater always a cheater is that it does not allow room for the person to change thus in fact encouraging the behavior rather then stopping it. Again that doesn't mean taking the person back (once trust is gone its gone forever usually) but rather allowing for the possibility that they can redeem themselves. If that makes sense. That said I don't know if I could ever forgive a person who cheated on me (or anyone for that matter) since to me that is the worse thing you could do, betrayel of the one person who you should have been most loyal to. But then that is also a human failing, we all have are flawes, what matters is trying to rectify our mistakes and try to become better people. "he who looks for faultless friends, remains friendless."

[myTake Owner]

This is a bit of a total contradiction is it not? In the example, Tiger Woods is an adult, and a married one at the time, who surely knew right from wrong. This whole idea of 'boys will be boys' doesn't fly. A girl wouldn't ever get a pass for the same behavior... your own words speak to that. As someone else mentioned, Woods made a decision repeatedly to cheat and essentially destroy his own family. Why would the victim, the wife, need to forgive that? He is more than welcome to get his act together on his own and work through his own issues and hopefully the next person will benefit from that, but the reason most people agree once a cheater, always a cheater is for again, a reason you mentioned, the partner forgives, they come back, they look at it as a free pass, and cheat again. It's not about a faultless friend, it is about having friends that can recognize and then stop the harm they are doing that maybe deserve your forgiveness.

[hellionthesage]

Never said boys will be boys I said everyone has flaws and for a man who now has access to sex something which he never had before generally tends to give into that urge. This doesn't mean its right only that this does happen. Again I at no point stated he should be given a pass, I clearly stated that the relationship should be over, all I said was that if he wishes to redeem himself and rectify his mistakes he should be allowed to do so, which again I pointed out, does not mean gettting to keep his relationship that he destroyed. Women, do get free passes, a lot. Its his fault for not giving her attention, a wife who cheates is still gets alimony (in one case their was even a prenuptial agreement that was circumvented after she cheated earning her a very large aliomny) so yes women do get away with it. Again I never said what they did wasn't wrong, in fact I pointed that out immediatley so I think your reading into this something that is not their.

[hellionthesage]

Forgivness does not mean free pass it means moving on and not wishing for the person to continually suffer because of the mistake made. It doesn't mean you have to be apart of their life, it doesn't mean you have to take them back and in fact if they wish to prove that they made a mistake they wouldn't ask the person too. So yeah, their is a difference between what I said and what you are interpretting.

[myTake Owner]

In the larger scheme of things, rape, incest, molestation, abuse, which was the larger reason for this post, I do not see the merit in forgiving those individuals. Why should I wish that a molester or rapists not "continuously suffer" as you put it for, "their mistake." We all have the option in life to do good or bad, and yes, we make mistakes, but some things like rape, murder go far beyond, 'just a mistake.' One does not accidentally force themselves on someone or plot someone's murder for weeks. This is the point at which forgiveness has limits in my mind. These are the reasons even we as a society believe that certain individuals should be locked up for the rest of their lives. I mean, do you want say your child's rapist out and walking free where he would be able to rape again, or the murderer of your wife able to possibly murder again?

[hellionthesage]

Well, I was raped as a child beaten and starved, even stabbed in the head (which is what drew the attention of child services, kind of hard to pretend a kid fell on the knife head first) and I will say with absolute certainty that if he and my mother wanted to fix their mistake and spent the rest of their life doing so then yes, I would forgive them. Doesn't mean I want them in my life but I would not push them to stay the same since that was when the damage was done. I believe it was 90% of rapist where themselves raped, if you look at the life of serial killers you begin to ask yourself how they could have avoided becoming that way as all of them (with the exception of a few paranoid schitzophrenics) where themselves abused physically emotionally and usually sexually. They became what they where raised to be. So thats why I would forgive, given that they wish to change and become something better.

[redeyemindtricks]

The limit, for me, is when something is so big and so transformative that it turns the person's whole previous identity into a lie.

Because then? Then, the issue isn't "forgiveness". The issue is, suddenly this person in front of me is a total stranger. I don't even know this person. There's no issue of forgiving or not forgiving -- there was just some other person, whom I thought I knew but didn't, and who didn't actually exist... and now there's... this stranger.

Obviously, yr examples would fall into this category. I don't know anyone who would molest a child; in fact, I don't know anyone who'd hesitate to use instant and lethal force against a child molester. So, that sort of thing would obviously put someone into the "I don't even know you (anymore)" category. How can you "forgive" a total stranger?

But, there are also, seemingly lesser examples that fall into the same box. Anything that is totally identity-destroying in the same way.
For instance, if my man ever lied to me, it would just completely destroy my entire perception of him (and if you've read much of what I write here, you'd know, I see that boy as pretty damn close to god-status, at times). Like, one lie would just send it all crashing down. He wouldn't be the person I thought I'd known, all these years. That even goes for lies about insignificant shit -- maybe even more so. Others might not understand, but, it is what it is.

That's the difference for me.

If someone is still the same person, I have pretty boundless capacity for forgiveness. But "forgive" is only a thing if I'm still looking at someone I actually know, and not at a stranger.

[myTake Owner]

This reminds me of the time I asked my dad if he would ever cover for my mom if she hypothetically killed someone and then asked him not to report it. He said something along the same lines of what you're saying which is, "I have kids and a mother for them and a wife for me, is not someone out there killing people and telling me to cover up for her. I wouldn't know this woman anymore and I'd have to think about the safety of what would now be 'my kids,' because I would never allow her near you guys again." Even my mom was like, oh, I know there would be no point in calling your dad, lol. But that is so true. It's like who are you that you would even do this. Things like murder and molestation are people and things you don't invite if you can help it, into your world, and if they do enter, you dont' allow them to stay and for me, I don't forgive unless as I mentioned, things like self defense, accidents, are the defense of others in the case of murder/killing.

[redeyemindtricks]

Yep.

[Mekkalyn]

Forgiveness is not for the person who hurt you, it is for you.
If you harbor ill-will towards someone, it is not hurting them. It is hurting you.
If you are so angry and hurt and you can never move forward, that is hurting you.

If you forgive the person for what they did, that means that you have accepted it. The anger that comes when you think of what they did has diminished. You feel better. You don't feel as hurt. It'll never be okay what that person did, but you have to move forward and know that it cannot be changed. It happened, it's over, move forward.

cdn.powerofpositivity.com/.../...ers-1024x1024.jpg

That is not the same thing as accepting them back in your life. If someone does something so horrible as to throw your vows on the dirt and stomp all over them (cheating), it's okay to move on without that person. If they do those abhorrent things you said, again move forward.

But you have to understand that staying angry and becoming bitter and refusing to forgive, in the long run, will only hurt yourself.

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[Darkbrunette96]

No, it so incredibly difficult. I have been trying to forgive my abusive mother for the past 3 years I can't do it. My dad is a renewed Buddhist but sometimes forgiveness doesn't make you heal.( You will still have wounds) They can heal you can choose to heal them but sometimes they remain with you forever and start to fade over time.

[myTake Owner]

These are the circumstances that I just do not believe in forgiveness. Every person in the world knows they shouldn't abuse their children, but some do and keep doing it sometimes for the entirety of that child's, childhood. We have organizations in place to take children away from these type of parents for a reason. We do sometimes put these parents in jail for what they've done. So if we as a society can say, somethings are beyond reproach, why does someone have to forgive the situation. I do believe healing has to happen within, and its only helped by the support, love, and care shown to you by those that are trying to help, not hurt you.

[Darkbrunette96]

I agree, I decided to let go but not forgive. I don't hate the person or hold a grudge. A world full of hurt and disgust isn't worth it. I have people in my life that have experienced the same process andd have helped me to move forward and to prsoper on. It hasn't been easy nor hard.( Thank you for your kind truthful intelligent words), :)

[underwaterloch]

From your perspective, what's the difference between letting go and forgiving someone?

[ilovefootball_]

I saw other girls while I was dating this amazing girl 1 year ago. I left for Europe in march 2015 and came back, she was with someone else, but only 2 months then he left her.

She came back to me in Oct 2015, after everything that happened and wanted to see how I changed. I told her I would and kept my word, haven't looked back since. She's the only girl to come back and forgive me, I guess she's a keeper eh? Cheaters do change, we have bad moments in life, but it doesn't define us later on in life.

[LittleSally]

I still can't believe people still support Chris Brown for example.
I never forgive such idiocy... and society obviously does - because money is more important than projecting terrible images into society influencing little kids.

Beat your girlfriends, children, as long as you're rich and popular, it doesn't really matter what you do.

[myTake Owner]

OMG, do not get me started on Chris Brown... too late. Half the people out there cheering for him know that if that had been there mother, sister, cousin, they would have lost their minds on him and maybe gotten physical with them in defense of their family or friend, yet, because he's a celebrity, and makes relatively good music, its like all sins erased and even worse, you have the complete idiots saying maybe she deserved it. Now irony of irony, the man has a daughter whom I'm 100% certain, he'd probably kill a man who did what he did, if they did that to his own daughter. But sure, it's okay for you... ugh, disgusting.

[ted22]

How come there isn't the same outrage when women beat men? I do agree with you on Chris Brown.

[myTake Owner]

@ted22 b/c in this case, the comment was about him.

[vishna]

If someone brutally raped me, no, I don't think I could forgive that person. Or if they did something similar to a loved one, or murdered my love one, no I don't think I could forgive. I wouldn't let hate consume me, but I wouldn't forgive the person. And I don't think living a happy life while never forgiving someone is impossible.

[myTake Owner]

Precisely. I think the moving on part comes from what I mentioned, the people in your life that love and support you, and the help you may receive for the trauma. That is what helps you to move on. Forgiving someone who so damaged your life to me will always be like giving them a pass for which they are undeserving. I mean, I just cannot imagine a parent forgiving the molester of their child for example. I mean really. There is an absolute limit on forgiveness. We're not talking someone broke your favorite mug or lied to you about something for which they are sorry. These situations are far beyond what I think forgiveness is meant for.

[vishna]

I totally agree with you.

[Heyyakkk]

Forgiveness is more for yourself to give you peace of mind. Actions are made and they can't be undone. Everybody wrongs you in some way at some point in your life. If you carry that hate and reproach with you , it will never bring you peace. You end up carrying the wrongs that they have done on your shoulders. How is that smart or healthy? Forgiveness may seem like a weakness but it's actually the most mature thing you can do.

[myTake Owner]

... and I'm willing to do so, up until the points I mentioned that I believe so far surpass the idea of forgiveness, but that's just me.

[Heyyakkk]

Exactly, its all just you.

[serious]

No, not everything can be forgiven. There are things that don't deserve forgiveness.

[Krillanr]

I ain't a judge or a jury. I ain't perfect. I ain't all knowing.

If I can't forgive people for wronging me, then what right do I have to ask forgiveness when I inevitably wrong them?

To forgive isn't the same as excusing though. You can forgive someone yet have them carry out their punishment for what they did, parents do it all the time.

But to hang on to it once it's happened does nothing for anyone, not you, not them.

So to forgive, is the only true way to restore your own peace.

[shortandsweet24]

I think that forgiving can be accomplished with time. It's the forgiving and the regaining of trust that seems so hard when someone has done something terrible. :(

[myTake Owner]

I'm sorry, what trust would you be "willing to regain" from your rapist or the molester of your children? I'm talking beyond just someone ran into your car or your kids lied to you about taking the car out for a joy ride. These are the times I just don't see that forgiveness should be given.

[shortandsweet24]

I didn't say that it was easy or even completely possible. It definitely depends on the situation. I just said that it may be accomplished with time...

[joeb73]

I feel the same way you do there are some thing that can not be forgiven. If we forgive homicide, genocide, rape and torcher. It will let the people who believe there is no consequence for there action

[utopianromance]

Jesus would forgive him. Thats about it, she could forgive him but it doesn't mean she should stay with him.

[Moose2coolvargas]

You should forgive people, what good does it do drag it on for days on end? Everyday is like a reset button in life essentially to try again if you will. You will never get back another day of life

[Mishae]

Well of course you are correct but you have gone to the extreme..

[myTake Owner]

How so?

[Mishae]

Read what you just wrote
"Things like molestation, rape, physical abuse, abuse of children, and certain types of killing (ex. accidental killing like you fell asleep and hit someone while driving vs. you planned someone's murder for weeks) cannot be forgiven."
That's extreme of course you cannot forgive someone for those things. As I said you are correct but you went to the extreme. You get it now?

[myTake Owner]

Well, there are a lot of people who do believe that everything can be forgiven, so to them, that's apparently not much more extreme than forgiving someone for dropping your favorite mug and breaking it.

[SweetHomicidalQueen]

Everything can be forgiven but not everything should be.

[ouchthathurt]

Sometimes I play devil's advocate against myself and defend people that I deeply hate.

It's fun.

[Anonymous]

Some things are definitely not forgivable. Screwed up thing is a lot people expect those victimized to just forgive and forget the worst of them.

[Bitterpill]

I think anything can be forgiven, however everyone will always have their own feelings about what they can and can't forgive or whether they should forgive.

[Sam19XX]

I am not even gonna read this take , the answer is simply no.