Why is so hard for women (generally) to understand dating is radically different for men then it is for themselves?

[Anonymous]

I try to have patience with women who make naive and ignorant judgment on men when it comes to dating to a certain extent. I understand they don’t look at the world the same way I do.

When all else is equal (looks, money, status, etc) dating and romance is very different (and frankly more difficult) for men then it is for women. Particularly in the early stages. It really is true.

I don’t expect this to ever change. Whining and complaining will never solve it either. A lot of it is embedded at a subconscious level.

It’s also impossible for a man to fully understand how women think or vice versa. We improve with age and experience. But still our brains and thinking patterns are literally built differently (in general). That leads to misjudgment.

But honesty it would be nice if more women could just respect what their male equivalents have deal with when it comes to dating/romance. Respect doesn’t mean you go on dates with, sleep with and get into relationships with men that approach you but you have little interest in. Respect doesn’t mean you have to feel guilty for rejecting men. Respect doesn’t even mean you have to be overly nice to guys you are not interested in.

However respect does entail putting the mental effort into understanding someone else’s position compared to your own. It also makes you think twice about mistreating someone to “get back” at an unrelated person who harmed you in the past. Respect helps you have better control over your emotions.

Overall respect makes you tactfully honest with someone when you reject them vs. playing games or ghosting them. Or asking them “can we just be friends” when they are clearly interested. Women might mean well saying that to a guy. But in reality that’s extremely selfish because men don’t approach women to “bond” platonically the same way a woman would bond with another woman.

Some women get it that men crave respect. But so many just don’t.

[Anonymous]

We DO have to often be overly nice to guys we're not interested in. Why? Because we don't know how many of you are going to go berserk on us over a flat "no". We have to walk on eggshells around guys we're rejecting and try to do it in a way you'll still somewhat feel good about yourself if we can. Many of you refuse to take no for an answer, you corner us physically sometimes, sometimes going further and touching us unwantedly. Some guys start screaming at you if you say no, they start trying to manipulate you into saying yes. Men are physically stronger and can be intimidating and the testosterone can make you all quite unpredictable and they'll use that advantage they have over you if they can. There's a reason we're paranoid about protecting ourselves and don't trust you for a while. We go out of our way to take precautions like not letting you know where we live at first and things like that because we don't know if you're creepy stalkers. We have to meet you in a very public place. We don't know how entitled you feel about sex and if you'll get violent with us if we don't give it to you as fast as you want it. For all the woe is me you're doing about what you think we don't know and your declaration that you think you obviously have it harder, there seems to be a whole lot you don't know about how we have to be around strange men we barely know. Your tactful honesty sounds nice in theory but believe me, the truth gets bad reactions from you guys. It's why we lie and sugar coat things and why we must. Dating men, and in the beginning of a relationship, is no easier for us at all. You just don't have to fear for your physical safety constantly every time you leave your house alone and can't understand what a burden it is. Resorting to calling us selfish when we ask something like being friends is the perfect example of the entitlemen men have that we have to deal with all the time. You want respect and tact and honesty and if all of these things are even simultaneously possible, we're still not guaranteed a reaction that isn't negative because no is still an unacceptable answer so often that it makes no difference how we say it. You can convince yourself men have it harder and declare it a fact but it's not a fact. It's the same ignorance you're complaining about.

[Asker]

“ For all the woe is me”

You know I did acknowledge that complaining about this isn’t going to solve anything. Also I have personally been in the reverse position in a few times in my life. It wasn’t fun. The worse incident is when I had a woman give me a veiled threat of a false accusation because I turned down her advances. Yes this really happened a few years ago. I had be over the top nice to her out of what she might do which is 100% bs. You think men aren’t the only ones who can’t handle rejection? Do you think they are harmless in those scenarios?

Anyway I won’t take that horrible experience as an excuse to be rude to other women I have to turn down. I will put the MENTAL EFFORT into understanding their position. I will compliment her on what I like. Show I respect her position. But I will be tactfully honest and say “to be honest I am just not interested”.

I know some men can’t take no for an answer. But you should always START with a respectful rejection. Show you appreciate his efforts and courage. But be honest that you aren’t interested. Don’t go into detail why unless he calmly asks why. 9 out 10 men will appreciate that. They might be angry at the outcome but they won’t be angry at you. There is a difference. And if he does persist THEN can get as bitchy/defensive as you want. Also take that as confirmation you made the right decision.

Also some women like “being pursued” when it comes to attention and validation. That’s the real reason they won’t flat out tell a guy no.

[DishLady]

We don't. We've just made ourselves vulnerable to guys who don't deserve us so many times that we end up getting tired of trifling sort of fellows who are willing to waste a wonderful girl's time for no reason. Perhaps more men could then OFFER respect before demanding it.

(And how obnoxious to claim anything about ALL women "generally" when you're only talking about your limited experience. Try thinking a bit more before making fake claims about a community you clearly know nothing about.)

[Alli112]

I mean I could say the same about men? Why don't men realize how dangerous it can be to start something with a new person, and even get mad when we take measures to protect ourselves? Why do men approach us explicitly claiming they want to be friends when they actually mean the exactly opposite? Why to men have such poor emotional processing and control abilities, expecting us to basically accept any emotional crap they throw our way? But in reality, I'm not saying that, because I believe that the human experience, despite it's wild amount of diversity, is more fundamentally similar than dissimilar. I've also seen dudes who've proven that they don't do any of that stuff I just listed or are open to doing better if they do f up.

That said, I think your view on women might be driven by the women you've chosen to spend time with, because what you just described is NOT reflective of how I've seen the women around me act. In reality, I've seen women agonize over whether or not to try and remain friends with a guy who she's rejected and who claimed their friendship was important enough to keep even after the rejection, only to turn on her later when he doesn't manage his emotions or set boundaries well enough to move on properly. I've seen women be absolutely mistreated by their partners, and rather than try to get revenge, sit there crying wonder what more they were supposed to do to help the man from getting to that point in the first place. I've seen women display far more emotional control and intelligence than their male counterparts.

(Legit though I can't wait for the day that wanting/being willing to be friends with someone isn't considered "selfish". I'd say forming an emotional bond with someone and then dropping them the moment you find out for sure they won't give you physical intimacy is the more selfish stance 🤷‍♀️. I get that rejection sucks, but never forget that while you were playing your fake-friendship "get to know you" game, she was building a real emotional connection that is subsequently destroyed when you walk away after. I'm not saying stay friends after the rejection, I'm saying don't pretend to be her friend in the first place, don't expect her to assume that you're lying, and don't ask her to be the one to destroy a meaningful connection in her life because you don't ahve the guts to confess that your "friendship" was conditional on her potential interest in you as a partner. Now that is selfish.)

Dating is difficult for everyone, so chill out and rethink whether or not you're in the position to call other people disrespectful or selfish.

[Asker]

Alright I can agree that a man should never approach a woman a flat out say “he just wants to be friends” when he wants more. But outright saying he would like to go on a date can make women nervous if she’s not interested. Or being even more direct by saying he wants to take her home and have sex is a huge risk and would creep out most women if they weren’t thinking the same thing.

When a man approaches a woman more often the not: he has no idea if she’s taken or not, has no idea if she’s having a bad day or not and last but not least has no idea if she likes him or not. It takes more courage to do that than most women will ever comprehend. Given that women should always be respectful of the position the man is in there UNLESS the guy was rude, very aggressive, etc.

Also your line “ I'd say forming an emotional bond with someone and then dropping them the moment you find out for sure they won't give you physical intimacy is the more selfish stance”

You need to accept that men don’t need women as “just friends” to survive in this world. We are independent. The vast majority of hetero men don’t seek out women to be “friends” with. It really comes down to women being much less of platonic value to men vs men being a huge asset it women in platonic “friendship” situations.

[Asker]

Think about it. A woman gets the benefit of feeling protected, getting strong male logical advice, having someone strong to move heavy objects, a break from other catty women, male attention, etc when they around a dependable platonic male “friend”. When you to a restaurant with a male friend who do you think the waiter hands to the bill to first?

What does a man get out of having a “female” friend? Maybe he gets a female POV on things. Alright great. Maybe he gets a wingwoman to help make other women jealous. Alright. But what can she really offer him? And why the HELL should he torture himself with a woman he wants romantically but isn’t attracted to him? She literally sees him as another woman in that situation when she knows he likes her but plays dumb. It’s very insulting. Sure he can reject the friendship but still some women like to keep men as “orbiters” and they will throw guau they friendzoned “bones” to keep him around but never date him.

Anyway I only have one long time female friend. It works because neither one us ever had real feelings for each other. We met through a business arrangement. But I ever saw any woman who pulled friendzone bs in the past again it would be too soon. I hate all those women who did that. No good memories of them whatsoever.

[Alli112]

Oh boy.
1. More or less on the same page about the "don't just immediately ask to have sex with a girl thing" My biggest quarrel is that it seems like the dudes that are the most offended by the "let's just be friends thing" seem to be the ones that most likely to be fake in the first place or hang around for ages before they say something. At least in my experience, dude who say something sooner rather than later are rarely offended if I friend zone them because they aren't emotionally invested to begin with. It's the guys that hang around for months pretending they're not interested that get upset when you say no.

2. There's actually a lot of research that suggest that men very much DO need more platonic involvement (regardless of gender) and that a lack of non-romantic or familial relationships is one of the big reasons why experiences like divorce can be so hard on men in particular, as well as a being a major driver in male depression. If have the global population isn't "platonically valuable" to you, then that sucks for you.

[Alli112]

3. In my experience, the waiter asks if we want separate checks and I say yes lol. Women are fully capable of giving logical advice same a men, I don't go to male friends for "protection", I go to my pepper spray and my phone, a male friend is different than "male attention", you really just assumed that all women consider each other catty. As for heavy objects, I carry my own shit.

4. By your logic, why should a woman want male friends just to torture herself over a man she wants romantically but isn't attracted to her? We don't see male friends as "other women", we just don't see them as sex objects either. There's a middle ground, ya know? If you don't want to be friends with someone because you can't manage your attraction to them, then don't. That's fair. I often recommend people take a step back from friendships if they do happen to develop feelings that aren't reciprocated. Just set your boundaries and move on, but don't vilify the other person for having the emotional intelligence to be able to what you can't.

[Asker]

@alli112 when ALL else is equal (looks, smarts, personality, money, etc.) women really do have a huge advantage over men in the initial stages of dating in the western world. They have more options. That’s something most will never understand until much later in life. They expect their equivalent or better when it comes to a relationship.

But back to “ There's actually a lot of research that suggest that men very much DO need more platonic involvement ”. Yes we do: with our male friends and family. Also men are often more focused on their careers and livilihoods because they are EXPECTED to not only be self reliant but able to financially support a woman and children. It makes us worker and focus on money vs worrying about our social life. Especially after age 30.

Now there is some debate about men going too far with isolating. It’s not that simple. But most of can’t and shouldn’t expect someone to come “save us”. We don’t like the feeling of being a dead beat and depending on others. We know we aren’t special just for existing. We are also special by what we are able to accomplish via agency.

[Asker]

With all that said there is a growing problem with too many men isolating. But to stay “friends” with a woman who romantically rejected us is the far from the right answer. That doesn’t men shouldn’t be mature about being rejected. We can’t control what a woman is attracted to vs what she isn’t. Her choice. But you are not I repeat absolutely NOT helping a man when you ask “can we just be friends”. Even worse is many women “play dumb” and just expect the man to “get the hint”. But they won’t speak up because when they do they know they will lose the attention.

Again the friendzone is a RESPECT issue for a mature man. Not a sex and intimacy issue. Sure it’s heart breaking and disappointing knowing that won’t be opportunity. But that’s not the real reason (mature) men get upset when a woman asks him “can we just be friends”. In his mind he thinks she looking to use him for her own ends (and she often is).

[Asker]

Also going back to your first point. In a perfect world a man could “emotionally invest himself” into a woman and get to know her as a friend first and then have it move to romance. Honestly I wish it could work out that way. But I have NEVER I mean never had that work out before in my personal life. Ever. And I wasn’t “acting fake” with these women either. I really liked them beyond their looks.

It’s been a very long time since I’ve had that catastrophe happen to me. But I have very painful memories of then it did happen. I got radar for that crap now and I won’t tolerate it. I am not going to invest time, money, hope, feelings, etc over an extended amount of time only for her to get bored, too used to having me as “a friend”, hoping in the sack with women random asshole and having the f*cking nerve to ask me for “advice” about him or even worse look for a shoulder to cry on after he screws her over. No and f*ck no on that. You have no idea how deeply insulting that is.

[Fatoumamoud]

Don't think to much about it. If a lady tells you to be friend with her that's means she is entertaining someone else. It's your choice to accept the friendship or move on to next person. Nothing complicated about this.

[Asker]

That was PART of my question. But what there was a much bigger question in this email.

Imagine you wanted to really date and get into a relationship with a guy you had a huge crush on. You go on a date with him and says “I really don’t want a relationship but I want to hook up when I feel like it”.

How would that make you feel? Sure you can reject that proposal and move along. But chances are you would feel very insulted if he said that. He obvious had no respect for you.

[Fatoumamoud]

I wouldn't feel insulted. He is honest guy. He told me what he wants rather than wasting my time. I do appreciate his honesty. I will leave the date and will not contact with him because I am not interested in having relationship with such guy like him. I don't have crush on people. Let us interact first, have few discussions then I may have crush on you later. I am into personalities then looks. And better if they have the same religion as mine a bonus.

[Asker]

So you seriously would not be insulted if he bluntly told you he sees as nothing more then an object and not a human being?

Very few men would say something like that to a woman. Maybe the top 1% could get away with that. But most can’t. They know most women would never go for that anyway. And most men know how insulting that would be.

it’s not the rejection of sex and intimacy is what mature men gets angry about when a woman says “can we just be friends”. It is the feeling of not being respected as a real man. It’s the fact she didn’t put the mental effort into his position. But if she said “I think you are a good man. I respect your time, courage and effort. But the truth is I am not interested in dating” that would go much further. She demonstrated respect by showing she was considerate of this feelings and position. But was also honest about where she really stands. That eliminates the agonizing guesswork and hope the man had. Sure it’s not what he wanted to here. He might not thank her but he will be thankful.

But when women say “can we just be friends” it’s insulting because it shows she doesn’t seriously think about his position and feelings. Well meant or not it’s very selfish.

A guy can reject that and walk away of course. But it burns much more knowing she had no real respect for him.

[Fatoumamoud]

Wait I am talking about him telling that he doesn't want something serious in our first date.

[Fatoumamoud]

What the respect has to do with person telling you that they want to date. But you need to know what they are looking for before asking them out or in during the first day.

Even if they lie about, saying they want to date you, that they look for something serious. You can observe they behavior, are they genuinely interested in you? Nothing getting under your pants must of time, do they initiate sometimes the conversation in texting? Asking you questions to get to know you better,,,,, IF NOT THEN GET OUT, don't waste your time.

That's all.

[Asker]

@fatoumamoud just because you CAN treat someone like sh*t and get away with it doesn’t mean you SHOULD do it.

But I get it. You see this all as a zero sum game. My team vs yours. Dog eat dog. Can’t say I blame you for thinking that way. I (regrettably) was like that for a brief time phase in my life. Not anymore. I do put a lot more thought in how I interact, pursue and reject women nowadays. Just because someone burned me in the past doesn’t mean it’s okay for me to burn someone else.

But our society as whole has adapted this “dog eat dog” attitude. It started with radical feminism telling women that their feelings are “their truth”. They in turn mishandle and mistreat otherwise decent men. Those men get jaded and turn into incels. Then those guys have wrong attitudes and judgment towards women who don’t deserve it. Then those women turn to modern feminism. Whole vicious cycle continues and it’s a race to the bottom.

But anyway I wish you the best. Nice chatting with you.

[Fatoumamoud]

I am not from western societies. I don't know what you mean by "my team vs yours". I believe you are so attached to your experience rather then reading my opinion as you predict reasons behind my opinion. Either way, have a nice day. I am not feminist. Let me put it out there.

[Asker]

I should of looked at your profile before you even responded. I have traveled abroad and I know dating is very different outside of western society. You won’t be able to understand where I am coming from or vice versa.

[Fatoumamoud]

Fair enough. Wish you luck 😊

[OddBeMe]

Why is their responsibility?