What Does it Mean to Be a Man?

[Malik00]

Yeah this is a very serious question, as in the modern day the concept of traditional manliness is demonized and as such many young men lose their way in life.

To have a better idea we must first look at the past. Say what you want, say how you feel you can't deny that historically men have generally been considered the.....expendable gender. Dangerous Labor, Hunting for food, exploring unmarked territory with no guarantee of return and if necessary dying in wars or expected to protect loved ones.

Though to be fair, I'm sure there are many who wouldn't mind going out like this.

This was expected of them, nowadays however many men are lost and they have no idea where to go in life, in a society that keep telling them that their masculine tendencies and rowdiness is discouraged looked down upon and even considered toxic and as a result they have no real way of letting them out properly, which can lead to disastrous incidences. Sexual harassment, shootings, etc.

So what is a man to do? Should he continue to go full frat boy and defy a society that seems to continue to reject him?.....well no. Despite how how overzealous lots of movements are about combating toxic masculinity, there is some truth to it, and besides that going full macho and acting jock-like all the time will usually backfire and then you just end up looking like an dope

The only man that could ever make going full macho work

In Contrast, what would be the other route? Disregard masculine traits altogether? Become more feminine and "lady like"? No I don't think so. Going full try guys and having the testosterone of an 85 year old man is not a good way to go about things ok? You need to have some sort of backbone, some sort of drive or ambition, some...I don't know OOMPH to you or nothing is going to get done. There needs to be a look of confidence in you, that you can take care of not only yourself but others, and that you aren't easy to push around.

I....THINK this is appropriate...I'm genuinely not sure. If it isn't someone please tell me.

Ok How about a cold, uncaring engine of logic? Not allowing things like emotions or feelings get in the way of making reasoned decisions. No. Logic must be balanced with emotions. Having too much emotion leads to things like false accusations and mob justice/violence, where as too much logic leads to some people thinking of others as potentially expendable.

If this guy can learn to accept his emotions, I'm sure you can too.

So how do you be a man in such an age...I've been thinking about this for months on end. And then i remembered an archetype i absolutely love. The girly tomboy or the tomboyish girly girl. Whichever variant you wanna go with. Point is in most media, this is the kind of girl i tend to gravitate towards. The type that does their hair, dress cute/nice and has the outward appearance of your typical female But generally has hobbies that involve Hiking, Sports and tinkering with machinery.

Look at it this way for me the ideal girl is someone that is like 70% Girly and 30% Manly......so why shouldn't the reverse be true for men? Temper manliness with just a touch of femininity.

Logic with Empathy, Aggressiveness with Caution, Confidence with Humility.

It's all about finding Balance.

We have to make sure we find a balance between traditional masculinity with elements of compassion and kindness and not be afraid to explore and do what were traditionally views as unmanly things. Bake, Garden, watch chick flicks, what have you. If you like it don't let things like whether its manly or not stop you just DO IT!

I know I'm likely singing to the choir, but i do feel that the concept of what it means to be manly needs to be adapted if its to be seen as anything other then flat out toxic anymore.

I do have views on toxic femininity but...that's a my-take for another time.

[englisc]

I disagree. I don't think we need to balance out masculinity with femininity. Men should be masculine, women should be feminine. I don't care whether or not my views are seen as toxic. The goal of those who say that it's toxic is to stamp out masculinity. They want guys like you to "redefine" masculinity to include effeminate behaviours. They want it to be redefined to the point where it means nothing at all in fact.

I don't think that it can or ever will be redefined because it's ingrained in our DNA. We can look at two men and without knowing exactly what it is that makes one or the other more masculine, we subconsciously make that decision. No amount of social engineering will change that.

Even those who say that they reject traditional masculinity still do this subconsciously. Often they're dishonest. Most people when they lack a certain quality try to downplay the importance of it. Those who say that they reject masculinity do so because they could never live up to the expectations of traditional masculinity if they wanted to.

[Malik00]

Alright then tell me. What defines traditional masculinity?

[englisc]

I think that Jack Donovan, author of a book titled "The Way Of Men", defined it well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-JWqHlKpU8

[Malik00]

Interesting video, however you must understand that my thoughts on masculinity come from my own personal philosophy. And all those traits shown in that video strength, courage, competence and honor, i think everyone should strive to have regardless of gender.

Just because you are a woman doesn't mean you should be weak, cowardly, inept and underhanded. Likewise as a man you shouldn't be domineering, boisterous and abusive. Being physically strong and capable is important don't get me wrong. However in our modern day i think it is more beneficial to be smart then strong.

To pick ones battles and understand ones limitations, it's also important to understand that there's really no reason for men to be hardasses all the time... its Ok to let it out and cry. otherwise you get to the point where it explodes and you end up with a bunch of people dead including yourself.

Being competent and honorable is important, but there is a difference between being brave and being foolish.

[englisc]

This is what I'm talking about though - feminists want to re-define masculinity to the point that it means nothing at all because they want to blur the genders and pretend that men and women are the same. By saying that you think both genders should strive to do the same thing, that is what you're doing even though you say that men shouldn't go the other way in your take.

The reason he wrote his book was to define masculinity, what it is and what it isn't. These are qualities that have always been more important for men to have than for women, because we've always been designed to do different things. Women are naturally not as strong as men, and that doesn't make her less of a woman. However, find me a culture where men who are weaker are considered more masculine than stronger men? Strength has to do with both physical and mental strength also, by the way. And somebody with a strong body is more likely to have a strong mind than somebody with a weak body.

[Malik00]

I'll tell you this much. I would rather spend the rest of my life single then spend it with a weak woman. I personally believe in egalitarianism, and if a woman wants to prove she can compete, hang and show she's just as capable as men. Should that not be honored and respected?
And im not talking about this entitled "praise me for i have ovaries" BS that seems to permeate the feminist movement. I'm talking about real feminists. I'm talking tomboy/1886 feminism.

[englisc]

I think that egalitarianism is bullshit because it goes completely against our nature. Women aren't supposed to be as strong as men. Studies have shown that even the strongest women aren't as strong as the average untrained man physically - why would you hold them to that standard? Strength is a masculine quality. Unless you're a complete weakling no woman is ever going to be able to properly compete with you, so why would you expect her to? It makes absolutely no sense at all.

[Malik00]

See you just made the same mistake as many modern day feminists. You put to much clout in the strength of ones arms. Sure at a certain point the biological differences do come into play but in the grand scheme of things what matters most is ones mind and ones will.

It doesn't matter if a woman typically can not defeat a man in physical combat so long as she has the will to stand and fight. A prime example of this are Russian female snipers from ww2.

As well as Mariya oktyabrskaya also in ww2 who fought against the nazi regime to avenge her husbands death.

To me the mind and the heart is what matters, not the strength of ones limbs. However i understand if you don't agree.

[englisc]

Modern day feminists are the ones who want to blur the genders completely, and it kind of sounds like that's what you want to do yourself despite the things you mention in your take, whether or not you realise this. Everything you're arguing for is about men and women being equal, egalitarianism, being almost the same. Masculinity and femininity are opposites, as are men and women in my opinion. You're arguing for less difference. For adding feminine characteristics to the definition of masculinity, and holding women to male standards also. You mention baking cakes, watching chick flicks etc. No masculine man I know enjoys that stuff, those are typically feminine activities. I've seen feminists say that a man can be masculine even if he wears a dress. Basically, a man can be masculine even if he does feminine things - this means that masculinity doesn't mean anything at all. This is what I mean by redefining it to the point where it means nothing at all. There has to be a line somewhere.

[Malik00]

I think you're confusing masculine with brutishness. Besides it's either this, or we keep going back and forth arguing whether masculinity or femininity is superior. Besides feminists don't wanna blur the lines between the genders, if anything they want gender differences to be solidified but in the sense that women are infinitely superior to men in the eyes of the law.
I see nothing wrong with wanting a generation of women that don't need to be handheld through every aspect of their lives, constantly shoving down everyone's throats about how inferior they are to men and thus need special laws and regulations that favor them just to level the playing field. I mean if you're ok with women being held to such an abysmally low standard that's on you. I am not.

[englisc]

The things I mentioned have nothing to do with brutishness. Also I think that the argument of which gender is superior is a dumb one, like arguing whether a fire fighter or a cop is superior - because we're designed to do different things. The feminists definitely do want to blur the genders, that's why they bang on about "toxic masculinity" and constantly want to encourage men to cry and have that same victimhood mentality that they have. And they constantly encourage women to act like men. I think that those laws are stupid, things like gender quotas and all of that, but I also don't care about equality. The reason they make those laws is because it's impossible to make something that isn't equal truly equal without resorting to those measures.

[Malik00]

Then what would you suggest? Cause like i said If i go out or marry anyone, I don't need to deal with a self entitled princess, or are you implying that i should just accept women are weak and helpless and that we should coddle them every step of their lives?

[englisc]

No. It's possible for a woman to be feminine without being self-entitled or completely helpless. It's also possible for a man to be masculine without being toxic. They don't need to become androgynous to be good partners.

[Malik00]

Sorry but i don't agree with that.
At the very least i stand by the belief that women need to be encouraged to have more of a backbone and men need to stop being so stoic.

[englisc]

You disagree that you can be a good partner without being androgynous? Why? Also what does femininity have to do with lacking a backbone? Again I think you're needlessly attaching false negative stereotypes to masculinity and femininity.

[Malik00]

It might have to do with as long as it doesn't go over the line, i don't see androgyny as a bad thing? As i said above, the kind of girls i've always been attracted to are the kind of girls who still dress feminine, but have masculine traits and hobbies such as boisterousness, bravery, bluntness as well as having a genuine interest in sports, hiking, video games. Etc.

Consequently Im not against the pretty boy archetype as i find things such as facial hair unattractive. But you can chalk that up to be being a city boy.

Besides all that, Frankly i can't stand submissive women.

[englisc]

It just seems like a bit of a contradiction to the part of your take where you say that guys shouldn't disregard masculine traits, because if androgyny is what you're arguing for then that's what you're encouraging, as well as encouraging women to disregard many feminine traits. You also mention testosterone levels, did you know that studies show that those with high testosterone levels tend to prefer those with more polarised masculine/feminine traits? Women with healthy hormone levels tend to prefer masculine men, and men with healthy testosterone levels tend to prefer masculine women. The less testosterone the more people tend to become and tend to be attracted to androgyny.

[Malik00]

I mean its like eating a chicken leg you know? You eat the meat and you throw away the bone. Kinda like this whole masculine feminine thing you take the good and throw away the bad.

And maybe this is just me and getting influenced by bad stereotypes, but i just can't help but feel that at a certain point, femininity became synonymous with weakness and masculinity with strength.

I'm probably wrong but it feels that way. Acting all high and mighty and promoting womanhood, but the moment things go south they pull the "I'm a woman" card. I mean you wanted equality, i gave it to you and this is how you're gonna act?

[englisc]

I personally don't see any bad points with masculinity. I think that feminism has done a good job of encouraging people to think negatively about these things, even people who are anti-feminist for obvious reasons. I do think that this is the reason you attach these false negative stereotypes to masculinity and femininity - societal brainwashing. I used to think that way myself but I always felt that something about it was a little "off", and now I realise why I think that is.

I obviously think the whole thing about masculinity =strength vs femininity = weakness comes from feminism - mainly feminists holding women to male standards. So for example I mentioned the cop vs the fire fighter. Two different but equally important roles in society. How would you compare the two? If you compare them based on who is best at catching criminals, the cop wins. If you compare them based on fighting fires, the fire fighter wins. But comparing them makes no sense, there's no way to really compare.

[englisc]

The same goes for men and women. Feminists compare men and women based on their earnings, positions in employment, and they want to push women into those higher positions and push women to earn just as much as men - why? One of the reasons women don't earn as much as men is because many of them CHOOSE lower paying jobs, part time jobs, and to have children. But to feminists that's a problem because it means earning less than men. Again, why? Why must it be that women have to compete with men on earnings when clearly their priorities lie elsewhere? It's because they're pushing women to fit a male standard.

In response to women who act that way, complaining about equality then playing victim for female privilege, it's better just to not date hypocritical feminist minded women, and forget all about equality. It's bullshit.

[Malik00]

But thats kind of the thing. You say the issue is holding women to male standards... wheres the problem? in my opinion If a woman wants the opportunity to prove she can stand with the boys and can actually accomplish that fairly well, that's admirable in my book.

To me first wave feminism had the right idea, its the second and 3rd wave where everything fell off track.

If you ask me societal standards are much too low for women, if a woman does the same crime as a man, she should be sent to jail for the same amount of time as a man. A woman should be viewed equally under the law as a man, that means due process and evidence must hold up her case.

Maybe men and women aren't equal biologically, doesn't mean we shouldn't treat them like they are. I mean do you realize how much i could get away with if i was born a woman? It's honestly kinda sad when you read up on it.

[englisc]

The problem is that it makes no sense and it goes against their nature. We've been convinced that feminism is this great thing that has freed women from the misery of traditionalism, but women today are more miserable than ever. Around 50% of them are on some form of anti-depressant medication, and that number is increasing. Other studies show that women in higher positions are more likely to suffer with stress related illnesses - they aren't meant to be there. In countries where women are more likely to stay home or only work part-time, they score higher on average in terms of happiness.

This idea that it's admirable for a woman to try to compete with men again is a feminist idea. Why is it admirable? I can't understand why that would be.

If you're talking about the law, punishment for the same crimes and things like that, sure I agree. Even then, no need for women or men to be androgynous.

[Malik00]

Fair enough, i suppose what i care mostly about is men and women being equal in the eyes of the law, so that women crafty enough to take advantage of it won't abuse it to get rid of people they don't like. Even so a woman with some fire in her is more attractive then some glorified yes man.

I would also like to point out that higher positions are stressful for anybody, not just women.
Again if a woman has the ambition to do so and wasn't pushed into it by being pressured, i see no reason to discourage her to pursue it if it's what she genuinely wants.

[bamesjond0069]

You have to actually do manly things sometimes to realize why they are so great. Everyone who has a penis should be able to shoot a gun, ride a motorcycle and be able to build something useful with nothing but his own hands and some tools. These are things that make a man feel something. I don't cry and have feelings like girls do and I think it would be stupid to try, but when I ride a motorcycle I feel free, when I build something I feel accomplished and when I shoot a gun I feel powerful. The funny thing was I went a large part of my life not doing manly things and I didn't get it. Then one day I moved to a different environment and I got to do these things and my life changed drastically for the better.

[Malik00]

And that's fine, see my argument is that may no longer be possible if you want to function in society. So we may see more men trying to strike a balance that allows them to keep their manliness

[bamesjond0069]

I would classify myself as 100% masculine. I am the least girly guy you would probably meet. And this is how I am, I am not trying to fit some mold or something. I fit into society perfectly fine. Sure some people call me "caveman" in my attitude and style and just the whole package but more people are very supportive of me than not.

[Malik00]

Fair enough i simply never cared for acting in such a brutish manner, but if it works for you it works for you

[MelaninDoll]

it means you have XY chromosomes

[MrCryptic]

What it means to be a man has lost a lot of its meaning over the years. Even the "traditional" man is somewhat skewed almost like a revisionist history and often times is portrayed from one extreme to the other.

A man is someone who fights. Not necessarily with fists and other people but someone who fights THEMSELVES and is always struggling to be a better person against their own fallen nature. Someone who fights their negative tendencies and emotions and becomes a conqueror of themselves. Only then can a man TRULY live up to their potential and have a good and full purpose in life. A man that conquers themselves in essence conquers the world because they don't let outside factors out of their control effect their composure, their determination, or their "frame." They take life as it comes and are always struggling to be better and they realize it is a big part of their purpose. They are not quick to temper, they have empathy towards others, and are also not afraid to get their hands dirty. They are assertive and not passive or aggressive. They strive to do the difficult things in life because they know it builds character and true strength.

A boy is someone who tries to step on others to get ahead, a boy loses their temper and self control and uses fear or intimidation to get others to do what they want, a boy let's their sexual urges and desires control their lives. In actuality they are insecure and effeminate because they always try to take the easy way out in life, never building character or true confidence. Unfortunately media and society portrays this kind of behavior as "alpha" or "masculine" when it is anything but.

[Malik00]

i never once heard of anyone try to portray the use of underhanded tactics such as that as being alpha or masculine

[MrCryptic]

That's good. It's pretty much a law in the white trash community. I hate to call anyone "trash" because I don't really think that way but just so you have more scope of what I'm referring to but it's typically the ones who have had broken homes, abusive parents or step parents, grew up around alcoholics, etc. They kind of have a mentality that actual strength is really just weakness and the truly strong will try to dominate other people and inflict fear and intimidation to get their way.

[Malik00]

WHAT? That's the most backwards thing I've ever heard in my life!

[MrCryptic]

Yes it is but where I live it's almost the normal way people think, especially the girls at my work. They think if a man isn't beating them up then she doesn't have to respect him.

[Malik00]

*Stuttering* *Seizure*
OK i have to know... where in the blicky blick fuck do you live?

[MrCryptic]

Kansas.

[Tdieseler]

hahahahaha... i read this Take to see if you were full of shit... but the references caught me... i loved the reference to the girlish tomboy... the word "variant", but especially your use of percentages... i dont argue with numbers, numbers dont lie.
See im one of those "logical" guys you talked about... and using that logic, (and the fact that i have a debater personality) i HAVE to find something wrong, OR add something.

First off... i can use logic to simulate emotions... but i highly doubt an emotional person can simulate logic... you either have it or you dont.
Secondly, lol, i believe a man, a real man, does whatever the fuck he wants regardless of what others think. So i loved that paragraph right underneath the Yin-yang pic. if making your woman happy is what you wanna do as a man, including watching some chick flick... fucking DO IT.

Good Take. and thats a lot coming from me lol

[HungLikeAHorsefly]

I fully agree with you. in my opinion, modern men are in the midst of an identity crisis. The 1950's archetype of masculinity simply doesn't work any more, and at the same time the so-called metrosexual or sensitive modern man affectation doesn't do it for most of us either.

[TheHelleri]

The degree of manliness a man possesses is directly proportional to the amount of responsibility they voluntarily take on.

[DJZest]

Strong answer; very alpha.

[Tohhhru]

I dont care about this manly shit anymore, more often than not its a bunch of insecure dudes saying "that's not manly" or "you're not a man" same way they use the alpha beta shit

I do my own thing

[RedThread]

I think whether you're a man or a woman you should just be yourself and live your best life.

[carrayville]

In fact, this is a good topic for discussion. In addition to mens, the girls also changed. There are not those keeper of the family hearth, they were replaced by instagram, facebook and the Internet. Actions now take place online, not in life.

[RedRobin]

Nice take

[LegateLanius]

Coolsville

[stormbreaker06]

don't be a pussy

[Montana07]

Nice

[Secretgardenblood]

Nice take

[Muhammad1999]

nice take