My Reasons For Being Vegan (Page 2)

[Scrambledagain]

Good for you. I'm the opposite though. I'm like a t-Rex I eat so much meat. The chickens get it since I'm on a high protein diet. I would honestly prefer to have my own farm and do it my way but unfortunately I can't and have to rely on that corporate Titan of destruction. If everyone became vegan, the farming and development of agricultural land will still wipe out nature. Not defending those other guys but the fact is, humans are just overpopulating this earth and it will reach an unsustainable level one way or another.

[Kiwedin]

I was like you too lol. People have it in their heads that vegans never really liked meat to begin with, but no. I was bacon obsessed and I used to be a hunter. I ate animal products for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. You get over it though and eventually you stop seeing animals products as food and instead see them as they really are, and that's muscle, tendon, bone, blood, cartilage, veins, arteries, periods, and bovine secretion.
You're wrong though, eventually people are going to have to embrace veganism whether they want to or not due to our growing population, that or world governments are going to control reproduction. "The 3.5 billion acres would produce approximately 2 billion tons of grains annually, he explained. That's enough to feed 10 billion vegetarians, but would only feed 2.5 billion U. S. omnivores, because so much vegetation is dedicated to livestock and poultry in the United States. So 10 billion people is the uppermost population limit where food is concerned."

[Kiwedin]

Just in case you want the source.
www.livescience.com/...e-planet-earth-support.html

[Scrambledagain]

Cool, will check it out. But overpopulation isn't just about land for agriculture, and food. It's also about living space. General development is killing nature.

[Kiwedin]

Not according to the reports. Livestock or livestock feed occupies 1/3 of the earth’s ice-free land (www.fao.org/.../index.html) and Livestock covers 45% of the earth’s total land (cgspace.cgiar.org/.../IssueBrief3.pdf and www.ipcc.ch/.../ipcc_wg3_ar5_chapter11.pdf) Humans only take up 3%-10% of earth's total land (www.earth.columbia.edu/.../story03-07-05.html and www.sciencedaily.com/.../081217192745.htm) So no, general development isn't killing nature, it's animal agriculture.

[Scrambledagain]

I'm not saying one is worse than the other. Agriculture is a big thing and I know it contributes massively to both global warming and biological destruction. I would obviously have to read more into it (see you have) but bottom line, a farm for veg or grain or a farm for animals has one thing in common: a forest is going to get it taken out. Non-animal farming has its consequences too. Veg farms will have increased pesticide use for example which would increase soil, water and ocean pollution for example. Certain areas can only grow certain plants, hence the destruction of tropical forests for bananas (for example). That's why, like I said, I would personally prefer to have my own little patch of land to sustain me rather than have a corporate dick do it for me. Unfortunately I can't afford my next beer yet alone a little farm lol.

[Kiwedin]

True, I'd love to have my own little sustainable farm, but I live in Canada where nothing grows for most of the year and I don't have the funds to build myself a greenhouse that will grow food year-round. If only I could just uproot my life and move to Hawaii lol. In the meantime, I'm glad that being vegan is the best possible thing any of us could do. A person who follows a vegan diet produces the equivalent of 50% less carbon dioxide, uses 1/11th oil, 1/13th water, and 1/18th land compared to a meat-lover for their food. :)

[Scrambledagain]

I like your intentions but the world always has a catch. If everyone became vegan right, we would have to get supplements. Humans need meat (or the nutrients and oils that meat gives us). Where a steak gives you 30g of protein, you would need to eat a shitload of veg protein to get that (for example again). So the increase in farming of veg will be expanded more than one would anticipate. Being a vegan or not isn't the problem. It's the way the world is governed and mass production for vegans, is still mass production. But yes, your carbon footprint will be less than mine:-)

[Kiwedin]

There's actually not a single nutrient, vitamin, or mineral that you can't find in plants sources. You eat animals for certain vitamins, but I just eat what those animals eat to get those vitamins. Did you know for any given space of land, you can grow 15x more protein with plants than you can with animals? If everyone went vegan, there would actually be a decrease in farming which is good. More space for wildlife :).

[Krillanr]

Ground beef is the bits of beef that are too small to serve as steak, not the trash bits, those are sent to be made into fertilizer and dog food and such.

Long as I can still eat my double meat whatever, I don't much care what others are eating, but if I am presented with viable reasoning to stop eating meat, I'll adapt, until then, grill on. XD

[Metlahaed]

The destruction of earth isn't viable enough? LOL

[Krillanr]

@Metlahaed You say that, but what is the reason? The spurious speculation that has gripped society? Or maybe some actual numbers that genuinely mean something?

[Kiwedin]

You want actual numbers?
Greenhouse Gasses:
- Livestock and their byproducts account for at least 32,000 million tons of carbon dioxide (CO2) per year, or 51% of all worldwide greenhouse gas emissions. https://www.worldwatch.org/node/6294 and www.animalfeedscience.com/.../abstract
- Livestock is responsible for 65% of all human-related emissions of nitrous oxide – a greenhouse gas with 296 times the global warming potential of carbon dioxide, and which stays in the atmosphere for 150 years. https://www.fao.org/docrep/010/a0701e/a0701e00.htm
- Cows produce 150 billion gallons of methane per day. www.ibtimes.com/cow-farts-have-larger-greenhouse-gas-impact-previously-thought-methane-pushes-climate-change-1487502
- Methane is 25-100 times more destructive than CO2 on a 20 year time frame. www.sciencemag.org/.../716.figures-only
- Even without fossil fuels, we will exceed our 565 gigatonnes CO2e limit by 2030, all from raising animals. Oppenlander, Richard A. Food Choice and Sustainability: Why Buying Local, Eating Less Meat, and Taking Baby Steps Won’t Work. . Minneapolis, MN : Langdon Street, 2013. Print.

[Kiwedin]

Water:
- Animal agriculture uses 500 times more water than fracking. www2.epa.gov/.../HFStudyPlanDraft_SAB_020711.pdf and bioscience.oxfordjournals.org/.../909.full
- Growing feed crops for livestock consumes 56% of water in the US. www.cspinet.org/EatingGreen/pdf/arguments4.pdf
- The amount of water it takes to make 1 pound of beef varies from 440-8000 gallons of water. (over 6 sources, so I won't bother posting them all).
- 477 gallons of water are required to produce 1lb. of eggs; almost 900 gallons of water are needed for 1lb. of cheese. www.ewg.org/.../
- 1,000 gallons of water are required to produce 1 gallon of milk. waterfootprint.org/.../...8-WaterfootprintFood.pdf
- 5% of water consumed in the US is by private homes. 55% of water consumed in the US is for animal agriculture. www.cspinet.org/EatingGreen/pdf/arguments4.pdf
- Animal Agriculture is responsible for 20%-33% of all fresh water consumption in the world today. www.forksoverknives.com/.../

[Kiwedin]

Land:
- Livestock or livestock feed occupies 1/3 of the earth’s ice-free land. www.fao.org/.../index.html
- Livestock covers 45% of the earth’s total land. cgspace.cgiar.org/.../IssueBrief3.pdf
- Animal agriculture is the leading cause of species extinction, ocean dead zones, water pollution, and habitat destruction. (over 15 sources to back this up, too many to post on this thread).
- Livestock operations on land have created more than 500 nitrogen flooded deadzones around the world in our oceans. www.noaanews.noaa.gov/.../20140804_deadzone.html
- The earth is currently going through the largest mass extinction in 65 million years (animal agriculture leading cause of species extinction). advances.sciencemag.org/content/1/5/e1400253.full
- 1/3 of the planet is desertified, with livestock as the leading driver. www.botany.uwc.ac.za/.../desertification.htm

[Kiwedin]

Waste:
- Every minute, 7 million pounds of excrement are produced by animals raised for food in the US. www3.epa.gov/region9/animalwaste/problem.html
- A farm with 2,500 dairy cows produces the same amount of waste as a city of 411,000 people. nepis.epa.gov/.../i425&Display=p%7Cf&DefSeekPage=x&SearchBack=ZyActionL&Back=ZyActionS&BackDesc=Results%20page&MaximumPages=1&ZyEntry=1&SeekPage=x&ZyPURL
- 130 times more animal waste than human waste is produced in the US – 1.4 billion tons from the meat industry annually. https://www.gao.gov/archive/1999/rc99205.pdf

[Kiwedin]

Oceans:
- 3/4 of the world’s fisheries are exploited or depleted due to the fishing industry. www.un.org/.../story.asp?storyid=800
- We could see fishless oceans by 2048. https://www.sciencemag.org/content/314/5800/787
- As many as 2.7 trillion animals are pulled from the ocean each year. www.fishcount.org.uk/.../fishcountstudy.pdf
- For every 1 pound of fish caught, up to 5 pounds of unintended marine species are caught and discarded as by-kill. https://www.fao.org/docrep/W6602E/w6602E09.htm
- As many as 40% (63 billion pounds) of fish caught globally every year are discarded. oceana.org/.../wasted-catch-unsolved-problems-us-fisheries
- Scientists estimate as many as 650,000 whales, dolphins and seals are killed every year by fishing vessels. usa.oceana.org/.../wasted-catch-unsolved-problems-us-fisheries
- 40-50 million sharks killed in fishing lines and nets. www.sharksavers.org/.../..._SHEET_Shark_Savers.pdf

[Kiwedin]

Rainforest:
- Animal agriculture is responsible for up to 91% of Amazon destruction. www-wds.worldbank.org/.../...PAPER0wbwp0no1022.pdf
- The leading causes of rainforest destruction are livestock and feed crops. https://www.fao.org/ag/magazine/0612sp1.htm
- Up to137 plant, animal and insect species are lost every day due to rainforest destruction. https://www.savetheamazon.org/rainforeststats.htm
- 5.2 times more land in the Amazon rainforest has been cleared for animal agriculture (136 million) than for palm oil (26 million). www.pecad.fas.usda.gov/.../ and rainforests.mongabay.com/.../...n_destruction.html
-1,100 land activists have been killed in Brazil in the past 20 years for speaking up against the animal agriculture industry. www.theguardian.com/.../brazilian-murder-dorothy-stang

[Krillanr]

Don't give me a massive block of text to sift through, if you want to discuss it, then lets discuss it. Not in here though, chatting on GAG is clunky at best, and there are too many attitudes to deal with.

[Metlahaed]

I dunno, science, math, biology, physics... Only the most intelligent ideas and theories produced by the most brilliant people earth has to offer... But... you know... whatever... I guess...

[Metlahaed]

This isn't a discussion, it is you learning the numbers that you asked for...

[Kiwedin]

You wanted numbers. Most of that is in the actual myTake along with their sources, so I'm assuming you didn't read it... Better yet, just watch Cowspiracy, that way you don't have to do any work at all. What would you like to discuss?

[Krillanr]

@Metlahaed I'm showing my interest, and you are giving attitude. That itself kills whatever motivation I had to speak with you.

@Kiwedin I originally replied to the part about ground beef, then after Metlahaed voiced his 2 cents, I replied to him asking what he based his information on, then you chimed in.

If you would like to, I would be happy to (in a friendly way) discuss your numbers and possibly have us both learn things, it would be quite interesting.

[Kiwedin]

I wouldn't mind, though now is not a good time considering it's 2:06 AM where I am and I need to go to bed. It would be interesting to discuss :).

[Krillanr]

Sounds good, I'm not feelin it right now either, pretty tired.

[GreatnessPersonified]

Are you sure you don't eat meat, just because you don't like to?
I have a vegetarian cousin, who used to grow up in a meat eating house hold. He decided to not eat meat when he was 12-13. He gave a laundry list of reason not to as well.
Later, I found out from our grandmother, that he never liked eating meat from a young age.
He was putting logic to an emotional preference, which I believe is unnecessary.
If you want or don't want to do something, it's your choice. :D

[Kiwedin]

Oh no, definitely not. I was pretty much as carnivore as it gets lmao. Epic meal time was my favourite YouTube channel, I ate animal products for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. I was obsessed with bacon and steaks. I would go hunting with my dad every fall and goose hunting every spring and I know how to skin, gut, and prepare these animals to eat as well. I still don't oppose hunting all too much because it's probably the least harmful to the environment and the animal's well-being compared to factory and free-range farming. I just wasn't aware of the environmental destruction animal agriculture caused, and for some reason, I never considered animals as my equals, in fact, I didn't pay them much thought at all. Me being vegan has nothing to do with taste, in fact, I struggled sooo hard to give up pizza and poutines, but it became a necessity because I was having a moral struggle with myself at every meal.

[GreatnessPersonified]

Cool, I respect the choice either way. I want to hunt and eat my own food, I'd like that.
You consider animals as equals? I don't. They can't really hold a two-way conversation, maybe one way, though.

[Kiwedin]

That doesn't prove anything about whether or not they deserve to live or die. Babies can't hold a two-way conversation, it doesn't mean their lives are any less valuable. If we can live our lives without harming others, then why wouldn't we?

[GreatnessPersonified]

Disclaimer: I love to debate, so please take no offense.

Babies are human. Babies animals are not.

"If we can live our lives without harming others, then why wouldn't we?"

HA. Humans are known for harming maiming and killing other humans. Maybe you haven't, and maybe I haven't (maybe), but in general, we do.

[Kiwedin]

Lol It's okay, I don't mind a debate.

Maybe it's because I'm close with my native American spirituality, but I was always raised to believe that all life is precious because in one way or another, every being plays a role in the planet's well being. Seeing as humans are, indeed, the most destructive species on the planet, I don't consider humans as being more important than any other lifeforms. If human beings were to suddenly disappear from the earth, only good would come from that, whereas if all Bees/Birds/Fish/etc. were to suddenly disappear, the planet would suffer immensely. Just because human beings are known for harming, maiming, and killing, doesn't mean we have to continue to act in alignment with that. Humans are also rational beings capable to logical thought, so I believe that we can acknowledge that destruction humans inflict, but we can also do our best to minimize that harm and destruction.

[GreatnessPersonified]

I like the native American, and it's a shame what the settlers did to them. Which I find funny, because no matter where people like the settlers go, destruction follows. In Asia, Africa, and the pre settlers Americas, life was more fair and balanced. Man took what they needed and even gave back to the land. The settlers just took.
I see your point.
We think the only people who are people, are the people who look and think like us. but if you walk the footsteps of a stranger, you'll learn things you never knew you never knew. :D
I agree with what you said.

[Kiwedin]

Aw, a pocahontas quote! Love that movie :) haha Glad we agree on that

[Zorax]

Great reasons, I agree, basically - I'm a lacto-vegetarian, but maybe I'll become vegan someday.

[Kiwedin]

That's great :)

[RationalMale]

Personally I follow the lead of wolves and bobcats... eat meat, lol.

And I find it extremely difficult to believe a dairy farm of 2,500 cows makes as much waste as a city of 400k people.

I mean, what sort of cows are we talking about? Rappers, pro athlete cows? How can a cow produce as much waste as 160 people? Cows don't buy clothing, don't go buy items at stores with lots of plastic and cardboard packaging, don't burn gasoline... I'm pretty sure that your average cow makes less environmental waste than me, overall, unless you're counting poop to poop basis only.

[adquidorator]

"Personally I follow the lead of wolves and bobcats... eat meat, lol."
Well there's a pretty big difference between you and wolves and bobcats: Their carnivores and you're a herbivore.

[RationalMale]

@adquidorator

so... herbivore=a creature that eats a beef, poultry, and fish on a regular basis?

[adquidorator]

Yep

www.telegraph.co.uk/.../...sed-as-animal-feed.html

[RationalMale]

Okay, so there's no such thing as a herbivore and a carnivore, huh? If everything eats meat.

[adquidorator]

"Carnivore" "Herbivore" and "Omnivore" are physiological predispositions to a diet. But you can feed a herbivore meat and a carnivore plants if cooked.

[Kiwedin]

Your name is RationalMale, but how rational is it to know all of this information and continue supporting such a cruel and destructive industry? The sources to everything I've written were provided. Watch Cowspiracy, it'll make more sense.

[RationalMale]

Frankly, such claims defy common sense. And I severely doubt the trustworthiness of vegan/environmental sources.

[Kiwedin]

So you don't trust the UN? Lmao

[RationalMale]

Fuck no I don't trust the UN. My degree is in political science, minor in International Affairs. If someone said they work for the UN I'd assume nothing they said was true, haha.

[Kiwedin]

I'm sorry, but that's kind of stupid. You can't really argue with science. The effects of animal agriculture are all measurable and indisputable. I feel like you're one of those people who still don't believe climate change is real lmao.

[blue_sun]

Yeah, because no scientist has EVER lied to push their own agenda, or the agenda of someone who is paying them. (Sarcasm)

Not saying I disagree with your sentiments about veganism, though.

[Kiwedin]

Fair enough, but seeing as that I'm from Northern Canada and can see first hand the effects of global warming, all doubt has been removed from my mind lol.

[RationalMale]

Really? You've seen global warming in action? According to the scientific data, for example, there was no rise in global aggregate temperatures from 1997-2012. During much of that time period, the USA, under Bush, did not decrease CO2 output. At the same time, India and China were also burning fuel and polluting like there was no tomorrow.

www.dailymail.co.uk/.../...ed--chart-prove-it.html

So, are you sure you saw what you saw?

And about the dairy farms... you realize how insane that actually is, to believe that a dairy farm of 2,500 cows makes more waste than a city of 400k?

That means that one dairy farm of 2,500 cows, supposedly makes more waste than the Georgia cities of Acworth, Kennesaw, Marietta, Vinings, Smyrna, and Sandy Springs.

Think about it. How much sense does that actually make?

[Kiwedin]

Here's the source for the statement about cow waste vs. human waste, from the EPA. Crazy, but completely true: nepis.epa.gov/.../i425&Display=p%7Cf&DefSeekPage=x&SearchBack=ZyActionL&Back=ZyActionS&BackDesc=Results%20page&MaximumPages=1&ZyEntry=1&SeekPage=x&ZyPURL
Think about it, in the U. S. livestock produce 116,000 lbs of waste per second:
-Dairy Cows, 120lbs of waste per day x 9 million cows.
-Cattle, 63lbs of waste per day, x 90 million cattle.
-Pigs, 14lbs. of waste per day, x 67 million pigs.
-Sheep/Goats. 5lbs of waste per day, x 9 million sheep/goats.
-Poultry, .25-1lbs of waste per day, x 9 billion birds.

The math adds up perfectly, so what's your problem?

[Kiwedin]

And yeah, there have been many changes in the environment since I was a kid and even more so from when my great-grandparents were children. They lived according to our traditional ways and taught them to their children, grand children, and great-grandchildren. If you lived as closely with the land as we did, then these changes would be obvious to you.
-Migratory patterns are completely off. Geese especially.
-The seasons have changed.
-Weather is a hell of a lot harder to predict, my great grandparents complained about this all the time.
-Wildlife populations have decimated.
-Predators (bears, wolves, coyotes, etc.) aren't finding enough food, look emaciated, and are coming closer and closer to human communities for food because they're getting desperate.
-Wild berries don't grow as much...
These changes may not be intense or drastic enough for you to notice, but we are going into our 6th mass extinction with animal agriculture as it's leading driver and that is non-disputable.

[RationalMale]

So that "waste" is literally on basis of crap?

I do get that cows undoubtedly poop a lot more than people. I'm pretty sure poop is biodegradable, though. Plastic, not as much.

Weather has never been predictable.

s.yimg.com/.../Facebook_meme_Global_Cooling_11.gif

Also, deer populations depend on various things. But are you really going to say that global warming is making the grass die and so the deer populations are down, making wolves have a harder time?

And by logic... the wolves that you see roaming near populated areas will be the emaciated ones, no? Because why else would they be near populated areas? One could easily argue that predator populations are getting bigger, and hence, more are being driven away from packs where they lost dominance, etc.

[Kiwedin]

Poop is biodegradable, but the Earth was never meant to sustain so much livestock. Our food supply literally outnumbers us dramatically to the point that if humans killed each other at the same rate that we kill animals, humans would be extinct in roughly 8 days. In short, it's too much shit for the world to handle, which is the reason why animal agriculture is the leading cause of water pollution andocean dead zones (there are over 500 nitrogen flooded dead zones specifically caused by animal shit spilling into the oceans). I don't think you understand how serious this is. Nature relies on these little things called phytoplankton and they are the root of nearly all food chains and they are currently being decimated by the ocean pollution (animal agriculture still number one reason). Without phytoplankton everything on this planet dies including humans, so the fact that you think your taste buds are more important than our survival as a species is beyond me.

[Kiwedin]

Also, that's not what I meant by weather being predictable. I doubt you'll know what I'm talking about, but if you've spent enough time outdoors before storms, rain, high speed winds, etc. you'll know what I'm talking about. You can literally use your senses to tell how the weather was going to be that day, you can taste and smell the humidity, you can see and feel the way the wind blows, you can observe the clouds, but all of these things aren't predictive of weather anymore. All the elders talk about this. It's a native thing I guess.

Also, you're off about the deer population thing. The government kills predatory animals in order to protect livestock as well as to control deer populations to make it possible to hunt. In 2014, 796 bobcats were killed, 61,702 coyotes were killed, 305 mountain lions, 15,911 prairie dogs, 8,971 crows, 1,001 cats and dogs, and 22,416 beavers by Wildlife Services, a branch of the US government.

[adquidorator]

Great Take, I just started working on mine: why meat eaters are just like creationists.

[Kiwedin]

Have you watched Dr. Melanie Joy's lecture on the psychology behind carnism? So good.
Also can't wait to read that :).

[echoaj]

Your a good person. Wish everyone was vegan so animals can run free. Those animal concentration camps need to be demolished

[VermillionLies]

We need more hot vegans guys. I don't want to date gross meat eaters.

[JustinTheGreat]

I used to be a vegetarian because I felt bad for animals not too long ago. Then I realized I was sort of a "fake" vegetarian because I still owned a leather jacket and had a bunch of products that were probably tested on animals.

[Kiwedin]

No, a lot of vegans have different opinions on that. Obviously, once you go vegan, it means that you stop supporting companies that harm animals, but when it comes to things you bought before becoming aware of the cruelty, it's different. Some people throw away or donate every non-veg item they owned and some just keep them. The only leather items I have are doc martens and these other leather boots that were really expensive and I bought them years before going vegan, but I haven't thrown them away. They were just really expensive and I want to get as much use out of them as I can before I donate them. I did throw away all of my non-veg products though, like makeup and things like that. It really is up to you, if you don't feel comfortable with it you can always throw those items out, but keeping them doesn't make you a hypocrite since you bought them before going cruelty free :).

[Lonewolf_1296]

Good for you. However you mention " 795 million people are currently starving" despite the world producing enough food for everyone.

They are starving because they can't afford the food whether it is grains or meat. Being a vegan doesn't help them in anyway.

[adquidorator]

Yeah, it does because using all that grain to feed the animals increases the demand for grain which in turn inflates the price.

[Kiwedin]

@adquidorator is right. That's why 82% of starving children live in countries where grain is fed to animals instead of humans.

[Lonewolf_1296]

@adquidorator OK, suppose that's the case. Now instead of using "all that grain" to feed animals, let's say it is now people consuming it. 7,000,000,000 people will be on the demand curve for those grains. Will the price go down?

I'm an economist by the way.

[Lonewolf_1296]

Read what I just told this guy.

[Lonewolf_1296]

By the way, I have two friends who are vegans, have been for at least 10 years. They are sisters well in their fourties and both have acne, one of them rather severe. And they are way past puberty.

[adquidorator]

Yeah it will because the meat industry is on tax subsidies and 7 billion people are already on the demand curve.

[Lonewolf_1296]

@adquidorator so? What do you say?

[Lonewolf_1296]

@adquidorator go take a few econ. Classes then come back to discuss.

If there's a demand, the price will go up, whether it is prime ribs or turds. You're so eager to defend your position logic and facts don't matter.

[Kiwedin]

Since you're the economist I think you'd be more knowledgeable on that. I've only taken on intro to economics course and that was almost two years ago lol. 7 billion people will not be on the demand curve for the grains though, because this is only happening in certain undeveloped countries where companies are outsourcing their crops. Demand will most likely drop.

[Lonewolf_1296]

Demand for what?

[adquidorator]

I already said that it will because there is less resources going into producing enough food to feed the worlds population and there will not be as much demand for crops thus the price will drop. That not-withstanding that the meat industry is subsidized by taxes to but the grains for the animals. Not to mention that we can use the extra water and land to grow more high-quality foods like fruits and vegetables.

[Lonewolf_1296]

You're saying grains in poor countries are expensive because they are used to feed the cows other countries consume.
To stop the need to feed those cows, we need people to stop eating meat which means those meat eaters would switch to grains.

[Kiwedin]

Also, about the whole acne thing. A vegan diet will only work if it's a high carb, low fat, vegan diet that is void of processed foods. I know vegan twins as well and they break out with painful cystic acne anytime they eat canned food, vegan junk foods that are high in salt, fat, and sugar, and even when they just add too many overt fats like avocados, nuts, and seeds into their diet. Their acne is extremely severe though, mine was never that bad. Eliminating animal products and processed food was enough to clear up my skin. I had chips and soda while watch the Ronda Rousey v. Holly Holm fight and broke out a tiny bit the next day, but I'm all clear again lmao.

[Lonewolf_1296]

@adquidorator in your mind you are making sense apparently.

[Lonewolf_1296]

Those girls buy the most expensive freaking organic vegan food I've seen.

Google "wholefoods stores"

[Lonewolf_1296]

By the way, I said they are vegan and now you say they eat canned processed food.

Obviously they don't.

[Kiwedin]

Not necessarily. It doesn't mean that we're replacing our steaks with grains, and even then, the demand for grain would still go down because of how much food cows eat in one day vs. how much food a human will eat in one day. Like I said "Cows eat 24-27 pounds of food per day, so in the course of their lifetime (1-2 years old at the age of slaughter), they would have eaten somewhere between 8,760 to 19,710 pounds of food to produce 490 pounds of beef.". Humans eat approximately 3-5 pounds of food per day, so demand on grain will still go down drastically.

[Lonewolf_1296]

We are talking about a shitload of people.

Anyhow, you know what, okay you are a vegan, you think everyone should be a vegan. That's fine, to think, but just keep it to your self.

[adquidorator]

When you waste a resource, the price will go up.

[Kiwedin]

No, I said the twin vegans that I know eat canned food occasionally when they have to and it makes them break out really bad. I wasn't talking about your friends lol. You did just say they buy expensive vegan food from Whole Foods, but the only expensive things there are the processed foods. Which doesn't help acne-prone people either...

[Lonewolf_1296]

Which part of they are vegans don't you understand?

It's like I'm arguing with a Nazi against killing non Germans.

[Kiwedin]

Dude, there are multiple types of ways to eat a vegan diet. Why is that so hard for you to understand? You can be an 80/10/10 vegan, a RT4 vegan, a starch solution vegan, a HCLF vegan, or a high fat high protein vegan, and all of these diets (though all are vegan) have different effects on the body. Just like the mediterranean diet and the Standard American Diet (thought both are omnivorous) have dramatically difference effects on the body.

So you think vegans, who oppose the torture, rape, slaughter, and exploitation of any sentient being regardless of species, are comparable to Nazi's? Bruh, if a Nazi opposed the killing of non-German's, they wouldn't be a Nazi. That's just stupid logic, but it's fine, you're just experiencing cognitive dissonance. I went through it as well.

[nalaa]

I didn't all comments on this answer but an interesting case study would be germany and the Scandinavians during WW1.
The British essentially tried to block the English channel to deprive germany of it's food supplies and it worked, they were starving, mainly because they insisted on their way of doing things. Which was to feed grains to animals and eat the animals. And the blockage of germany is seen as one of the major factors that contributed to the allies victory

But collateral damage of that was that, they also starved out the Scandinavian countries, until someone had the idea to just eat the grains instead feeding it to animals first. And worked as well, they fared much better

[Lonewolf_1296]

@nalaa this thread got old days ago, you can't reason with vegan fanatics. They are like christian fanatics, facts do not matter. It is what they say and that is that.

[nalaa]

takes tend to gain popularity after a few days after they've been written, so I wouldn't say it's outdated

And I was actually supporting her point

[Lonewolf_1296]

@nalaa I know, none of you gave an economics degree but it is going ti be what you say or eff you.

[Lonewolf_1296]

Have*

[Lonewolf_1296]

Damn phone and its auto "correct".

[Realfire22]

I'm a proud black Native American who eats her meats. That's great if this whole vegan junk works for you, but it's not for everyone. Just because it's YOUR truth and u can find things to back up what you believe, that doesn't make it THE truth.
God said we could eat anything that doesn't disagree with our bodies (food wise), so that's what I do. And uk what? I'm healthy, strong, beautiful, at a healthy weight with little blemishes. I will never feel sorry for being an omnivore.

[Kiwedin]

38.media.tumblr.com/.../...e_mzs3jb3jJg1qkyb34.jpg
Proud of what? Destroying the environment? Killing innocent animals? God would be so proud of you.

[Realfire22]

Lol nice try, but there's no way I'm "destroying" the environment by eating meat. Also, if you read your Bible, since u want to say God (the Great Spirit) is mad at me, you'll see quite a few places where God told man to kill and animal and eat it. Apostle Peter is a prime example of this happening.

[Realfire22]

Oh and another thing, only God can destroy the Earth because he's the one who created it. Man doesn't have that kind of power.

[Kiwedin]

I'm all for believing in God and whatnot, but once it starts clouding your rationality and causes you to turn your back on science, that's when you've crossed the cooky line lmao. Believe what you want, but the fact that animal agriculture is the leading cause to greenhouse gasses, species extinction, water pollution, water consumption, ocean dead zones, rainforest destruction, habitat destruction, and nearly every other environmental issue we face today is 100% fact and is backed by hundreds, if not thousands of studies and environmental reports.
God may have said it was okay to eat animals, but he never said you absolutely had to. Also, you'll notice that before sin was introduced to the world when Adam and Eve ate the apple, the diet they ate in the Garden of Eden was a completely vegan diet. Therefore, eating animals is a result of sin coming into the world. I was forced to go to Sunday school as a child ;).

[Realfire22]

You don't know that Adam and Eve only ate fruits and veggies before they commited sin because the Bible never mentioned that.
Another thing, "turning my back on science "? "Choosing science over the Bible"? LOL!! What a laugh!! Scientists are only discovering what God made. None of this stuff they find out is anything new because it's always been there.
Being a native American, u should know this.
I did not comment to argue about the Bible, which no one can get me on because I was raised on it even before I was born (my mom would read the bible to me while I was in her womb). I'm still continuing on in the Bible now that I'm grown and I have a personal relationship with God. That's great u were "forced to go to Sunday school ", but if you don't live by what you learned about the Bible. then u don't believe in it, nor reverence God.
Anyway yeah.

[Realfire22]

Another thing, the Bible never said that Adam and Eve ate an apple. It just says, "fruit". The whole apple thing is man's idea. ;) Unless u can prove it in the Bible, it's not truth.

[Kiwedin]

Literally found this on the first page of the entire bible:
Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so.

I said you were turning your back on science because you refused to acknowledge that animal agriculture is the leading cause of greenhouse gasses, species extinction, water pollution, water consumption, ocean dead zones, rainforest destruction, habitat destruction, land degradation, desertification and nearly every other environmental issue we face today. To deny a fact is beyond me.
Being a Native American, you should have a deep respect and need to protect the environment.

[Realfire22]

I applaud your response and will check those scriptures
out and pray about it. And you're right, I should be caring more for the environment. I'm black Cherokee on my dad's side and black Seminole on my mom's side. Either way, I'm sure my ancestors would want me to be more caring of the land we inherited by birth. I'll give u that. But I don't need to be a vegetarian to do that. :)

[Realfire22]

Vegan*

[Kiwedin]

Unfortunately, it's impossible to be to an effective environmentalist if you still support the animal agriculture industry. Eating vegan for one day saves 1,100 gallons of water, 45 pounds of grain, 30 sq ft of forested land, 20 lbs CO2 equivalent, and one animal’s life. If you were only taking short showers, recycling, composting, and biking, you wouldn't even save a fraction of that. I can tell you care though, so I hope you make the connection sometime soon. Cowspiracy is a great movie if you'd like to learn more about how a vegan diet saves the environment.

[MaybeNot1]

I don't see why you would see the needs to create a mytake explaining why you're vegan. You're vegan? . . . Cool, now keep it moving.

[Kiwedin]

Someone on Gag actually told me to make one. He asked a question something like "Why are you vegan or vegetarian" and I gave him my reasons and he told me I should do a myTake since he'd learned a lot from my response. It's educational, that's all.

[T-shirtsandkneehighs]

People make my takes on all sorts of things. " Why i don't want to get married" "why i don't believe in god" Take your salty ass comments and fuck off somewhere else

[Prof_Don]

I'm always curious about people and their reasoning for being veggie or vegan!

[Vasiliy]

Veganism doesn't really make you lose weight at all. In fact most weight is put on from calories from carbs generally, not fat or protein.
Many people lose weight from eating only meat because it's very difficult to eat enough to gain weight, with carbs it is very easy.
Also, mmm bacon.
I don't really care about animals, they're not people, we're above them, people can do what they like with them as long as it's not torture (of any animal) or neglect of a dog/cat/etc.

[Kiwedin]

You sound like a wonderful person, wow. I'm afraid you don't know much about nutrition though, since carbs are the body's number one source of energy. They get burned up the most efficiently of all three macronutrients, whereas excess fat and protein gets converted into fat before they can be used for energy, which is why plenty of vegans lose a lot of weight after transitioning to a carb heavy diet, lower in dietary fat and excess protein. Look into Dr. John McDougall and Dr. Neal Barnard's research on human nutrition. Carbs aren't the enemy, otherwise the Ancient Okinawans, rural Chinese, and the California Adventists would be sick and fat since the bulk of their diets come from carbs, but instead they have the lowest rates of cancer, diabetes, cardiovascular disease, osteoporosis, arthritis, healthiest weights, and have the longest life expectancies in the world.
www.nih.gov/.../nih-study-finds-cutting-dietary-fat-reduces-body-fat-more-cutting-carb
www.sciencedirect.com/.../S1550413115003502
care.diabetesjournals.org/.../1777.abstract

[Vasiliy]

I was talking practically. Ketogenic diets are practical. Ketogenic diets work, they work for everyone that tries them generally, and it's irrelevant what the science is. It is not a long term diet, sure, but that's not a reason to hate it.
If you want to be a vegan do so, I'm not saying people don't have the choice, just want people to be educated that completely cutting carbs is also an option rather than that.

[Jayded1]

This poster is actually correct. Two of the links are for the same study. All 3 are abstracts. What this means is they are not fact checked and not recognized. Anyone can post an abstract that says anything they want. It isn't a peer reviewed study. That aside though the study you ar elinking used restrictive diets. what this commenting is saying is eliminated carbohydrates. There is a very big difference. Your body will not go in to a ketogenic state if you are only restricting carbohydrates. Basically you are correct that your body uses carbs for energy, it wants them. If you eliminate them your body goes to the next best energy source. Fat. That is why nothing makes you lose fat and maintain muscle faster then ketosis. Your body is doing double duty using the fat you eat and the fat you store for it energy.

[Kiwedin]

Lol "it's irrelevant what the science is".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=es4PFR5GZTY

[Vasiliy]

People are going to lose weight, vegan or otherwise if they want to.
It really doesn't matter what your diet is, if you eat twinkies only (but not too many twinkies) you will lose weight.
Infact you can starve yourself eating only twinkies if you want to.
Carbs don't fill you up in a practical sense, they leave you wanting to eat more, this is what 90% of vegan food on the market contains.

If you want to lose weight, you will, either way. Besides, I lift weights, if I went on a vegan diet there's no fucking way I'd meet the amount of protein I want without supplements, but with lots of meat it's doable.

[Kiwedin]

If carbs don't fill you up, then the issue is that you aren't eating enough to fill your stomach lol.

There are plenty of vegan bodybuilders and competitive weight lifters who are vegan without an issue. It's actually pretty easy to get a lot of protein on a vegan diet and totally doable for any athlete. Torre Washington, Frank Medrano, Patrik Baboumian (world record holder for weight lifting), Jon Venus, and so many more.

[Vasiliy]

"If carbs don't fill you up, then the issue is that you aren't eating enough to fill your stomach lol."
Cool, so I need to eat more calories of carbs to be full than protein.
You just proved my point.

[Kiwedin]

Not really, plants are a lot less calorie dense than animal products, so you do have to eat more to get a proper amount of calories. I don't see this as a negative thing though. I've always had a very slow metabolism, so calorie restriction, weighing, and measuring my food was a practice I had to take part in just to maintain a healthy weight. It's honestly exhausting, but as a vegan, I can eat until I'm satisfied at every meal without having to worry about weight gain, worrying about calories isn't something I do at all, whereas it used to cause me some anxiety. It's a huge step up for me. I used to feel guilty when I felt full, now I just feel good about the nutrition I've given my body.
So no, point not proven.

[Metlahaed]

"I don't really care about animals, they're not people, we're above them, people can do what they like with them as long as it's not torture"

The animals you eat are tortured from birth to death though...

[Vasiliy]

@Metlahaed They aren't tortured, that implies actually wanting to hurt them, they're just raised in bad conditions, but they're animals, so who really cares.
Don't hurt them without reason, but it's not like cows have rights. For dogs/cats/any house animal I would say definitely give them better conditions though.

[Kiwedin]

The only difference between domesticated animals and farmed animals is your perception of them.
What happens to animals in factory farms does indeed count as torture, you just can't see that because you have no empathy for the victims. Animals are artificially inseminated against their will (would be called rape if this happened to a human), they are forced to be pregnant, their children are stolen from them and taken to slaughter, they're forced to live in their own feces, they are riddled with disease and infections due to their poor living conditions, they are enslaved and exploited, they are ground up alive, suffocated, or left to starve to death, they are castrated without anaesthetics, they are bound or hung upside down and have their throats slit while still conscious and aware. If none of this qualifies as torture to you, then I don't know what to tell you other than you are truly and completely, a shitty human being. Sorry, not sorry.

[Metlahaed]

Also, humans are animals... And in china they eat cats and dogs too. To be honest, if you are going to eat meat, you shouldn't discriminate. I would totally eat a dog if it was on the menu and I was a meat eater (which I was and have done in China)

[Vasiliy]

@Metlahaed I have no issue with eating dogs/cats even, but most people do.
in my opinion we just have to make this distinction to if it's a pet, or livestock.
Pets deserve a certain amount of care yeah, livestock I could care less.

[Vasiliy]

Torture implies it's meant to hurt them, no one really cares enough to torture livestock tbh fam.
by the way, if you want to say artificial insemination is rape, it really isn't. Most animals like cows/sheep/pigs get pregnant from rape anyways, that's just how those animals are, it's fucked up yeah, but true.

We're the top of the food chain, if cats were at the top they'd eat us, I don't really care about some random animal that can't think.

[Kiwedin]

Because trying to kill someone doesn't mean you're trying to hurt them? lmao
It's still unwanted penetration and it's still wrong. Though it happens in the wild, it's done for the sake of reproduction and to keep their species alive. To impregnate someone with the sole purpose of kidnapping and killing her child to steal their milk and sell it to people who don't even need it in the first place, is fucked up and completely wrong and I don't understand why you feel the need to defend such cruelty. You sound like a slaveowner from the 1800's saying "but it's always been this way", "but they're savages", etc. There's a quote by Theodore W. Adorno that says "Auschwitz begins wherever someone looks at a slaughterhouse and says: they're only animals."
You say it's okay to hurt these animals because they're not as smart as we are, but intelligence has nothing to do with whether or not a being can feel pain, can experience suffering, and has a desire to live. This does not justify harming them

[PippiL]

I admire the hell out of vegans. But I just can't give up meat.
I do, however, raise my own chickens and cattle, so I know that they're happy and well cared for.

[the_rake]

basically this is the way to be.

telling society to stop killing animals and eating meat is sorely unrealistically but changing things around a bit so that animals are treated better is the way forwards and people that free range livestock such as yourself will be taken more seriously in this matter because they have personal experience doing so.

[Kiwedin]

Unfortunately, it still isn't enough to sustain our population. Free range, grass-fed cattle requires more land and more resources making it worse for the environment than factory farmed beef. www.onegreenplanet.org/.../

[PippiL]

My cattle eat hay, which is raised on a dry farm. Uses minimal resources.

[Kiwedin]

Lol hay is a type of grass...

[PippiL]

It's actually alfalfa hay, which is not grass. It is grown in a field that would otherwise be put into CRP. It is not watered, sprayed, or fertilized. And it is a perennial plant, meaning that it comes back every year. That means no tilling or planting. It is cut and baled three times a year. That's it. Costs next to nothing to produce and has minimal environmental impact.

[Kiwedin]

If your farm was the only one that existed, then that would be great, but there are thousands of farms like yours and the cumulative effect that growing alfalfa has on the environment is still quite a lot. The problem still remains that there are too many people eating meat for the planet to produce in a sustainable manner.
i.kinja-img.com/.../rr3dv8ikogxeqabs0noc.jpg
Healthier cows produce 500% more greenhouse gasses than grain-fed cows, one of those gasses being methane which is 25-100 times more destructive than carbon dioxide and has 86 times the global warming potential. Oh, can't forget nitrous oxide too, cows produce 65% of human related emissions and it has 296 times the global warming potential of carbon dioxide, and stays in the atmosphere for 150 years. Even if we completely stopped burning fossil fuels, we would exceed our 565 gigatonnes CO2e limit by 2030, all from raising animals... Depressing.

[PippiL]

I understand what you're saying. But for me, being able to control my animals' quality of life is a step in the right direction, even if it doesn't solve the problem on a global scale.

[OrdinaryGentleman]

I love how you put gorillas into the equation because they often eat baby chimps, monkeys etc... It was a great read but I am still going to feast on the flesh of animals.

[Kiwedin]

0.1% of their entire diet comes from animal sources, such as bugs and insects.
www.berggorilla.org/.../

[Bookwik]

I would have given a serious response, but I was too busy eating my burger filled with eyeballs, lips, and assholes.

[Kiwedin]

ew lmao

[CavScoutTrooper]

Tl;dr

However I will say I'm sure you're doing fine.

[BaileyisDarcy]

Why the he'll do people comment on things they didn't even read? Bugger off and quit wasting people's time.

[CavScoutTrooper]

@BaileyisDarcy I dont know why the he'll people do it.

I didn't say anything offensive

And i dont have to do what you say, so no.

[Phoenix98]

Still going to eat meat.

[HighlanderTheOne]

3,2,1. Okay, it's time for you to fuck off!

[Fluttershy22]

Cool more turkey for me :D