Gun Control Debate: Time to Set the Record Straight

[Phoenix98]

So with all of the questions, rants and takes, questions etc on guns lately and the world's obsession with our ownership of them, I have decided to create this take to set a few things straight. Namely, why we have our 2nd amendment, what it stands for, why we like, need or want to have weapons, and how guns actually do help prevent crime and why gun free zones won't work, and I will show video to my points on several of these.

Why gun free zones won't work, and can armed civilians stop mass shootings?

Gun free zones do not work why? Because they are just signs in a window with words on it, there is nothing about a gun free zone that keeps people safe. In fact, if anything it makes it easier to kill someone; if I was to go and plan a mass shooting I would avoid gun zones and target a gun free zone why? Because no one is armed, no one can do anything to stop me I don't have to worry about someone shooting me in the back and when the seconds count the cops are only minutes away.

The cops take a certain amount of time to get there, so while they make there way to that zone a killer has that much time to freely roam wherever he is and kill like there is no tomorrow without worry of retaliation and when someone is killed execution style in public were they should be able to protect themselves then you know something is wrong. And statistics show that more massacres and mass shootings happen in gun free zones then in gun zones.

It also does not help when the media puts so much attention these killers and basically turns them into celebrities overnight if you want to help stop mass shootings then let these killers die how they lived as a nobody.

Why you should conceal and carry, open carry or have weapons in your home or businesses and does concealed carrying stop crime? in states that allow it?

Now for concealed and carry or even open carry as well as having weapons in your home, despite contrary belief it is actually a good idea, there are more then enough ways to keep guns out of the hands of children but even better is to educate them about them. To teach them that they are tools and weapons not toys, and taking the necessary precautions regarding them, but more importantly because when the seconds count the cops are only minutes away, and a lot..no most of the time the cops arrive after the crime has been committed, very rarely do they ever arrive during it. And cops themselves will even admit this. Now lets take a moment to hear from an actual cop and also to see how the lives and crimes guns have stopped and saved.

And here is an example of all the lives guns have saved that you never hear about.

2nd Amendment what it means, gun rights/gun control, why we have or and want our weapons.

When the 2nd goes the first is not far to follow, our main reason for having weapons is protection from our own government and I know a lot of you are just simply going say we're crazy or conspiracy theorists in reality are we? history is riddled with examples of just that, I would say ask the tens of millions people my own people included, brutally murdered by their own leaders and governments or governing bodies either because the populace couldn't protect themselves or because they could but were disarmed but you can't ask them or rather you can ask them but no one will answer, and you know why. The 2nd reason is for our own personal protection, against those that would rob, hurt or kill us a point shown above.

And then that video on your 2nd amendment plays into this video on natural laws given to you at birth. And one of your natural laws is the right to self preservation the right to self defense and to defend not only yourself but others from harm.

And that plays into the fact of what was said above, if the 2nd goes the 1st is not far to follow meaning all of these things are meant to intertwine and bind together it was made that way on purpose and if one amendment goes they all go and the whole thing eventually falls apart. The 1st is just as important as the 2nd, the 2nd is just as important as the 3rd, the 4th and so on and so on. Each part is there for a reason and the 2nd is put there to protect the other amendments as well as the people who utilize them.

Thank you for reading and just like I have stayed respectful in my post I expect your opinions to be the same, you are free to share your opinion but keep it respectful.

[Dingsbums]

Yeah but the complete way of thinking is strange. I live in Germany and I don't even consider the possibility that someone could shoot me while I'm on the street. Why? Because it never happens here. Why? Because no one has a gun.
Ok but what happens if there is a terrorist attack and everyone is unarmed. Then u just run your ass off and hide somewhere while u wait for the police. The fact that everyone is armed in America and still 50 people die in a terrorists attack just proves that it doesn't really help. More like the opposite because no terrorist really has a problem to get a gun to kill people. Your logic is like give everyone a gun and no one will shoot because he has to fear to get shot too but there are crazy people who will still take the risk because they don't care if they die or not. With this rule you live in a mental state of war and that in a peaceful country

And yes u lose a part of your freedom when u are not allowed to have a gun but when u drive in a car u are also not allowed to drive how you want

[Phoenix98]

Well that's because you live in a culture that isn't like ours, In Germany very few people have actually owned firearms and even less actually use them.

Yes but what you forget to mention is that those 50 people were in a gun free zone were weapons are banned and none of them even owned firearms to begin with much less carried one with them. Which further proves my point they were left defenseless and because of that one man was able to defy the power of the gun free zone sign and kill 50 defenseless people.

This is proven time and time and time again especially considering that almost 100% of mass shootings are committed in gun free zones.

And the car thing doesn't work my friend it's not even remotely the same thing and you know it.

[Luci92]

What about Australia though? Can we compare Australia to the US?
I don't know much about the laws etc, in fact I don't know much about it at all, but what I do know is that Australia hasn't had ANY mass shootings since 1996, when in April of this year, a gunman opened fire on tourists in Tasmania, killing 35 people and wounding 23. Just 12 days after the grisly attack and the public outcry it launched, Australia’s government responded by announcing a bipartisan deal to enact gun control measures. Since this has not been a mass shooting in Australia, and overall gun violence has decreased by 50 percent.
(Man I am glad I live in Australia).
www.democracynow.org/.../australia_stopped_mass_shootings_after_1996

[Phoenix98]

Lol I've already been through the whole Australia argument like 3 or more times already, and it's late so I'm not going to get into it now. But I'll leave it at this for now and pick it up later but it wouldn't work here, we are not Australia our people are different our laws, government, what we were founded on are different, our history and culture are different and its the history and culture part especially, that are the main reason why it won't work. And that's also why it worked in Australia because you don't have that history that culture with guns that we do and it's ingrained in us, it's part of what makes us who we are and it's what we were founded on, among other things.

[Phoenix98]

s like regarding guns, there was once a school teacher in the wild west he used to be a criminal a bad guy but he reformed his life for the better. One day a he was teaching and a man from his past came into his school with the intent on killing him with his weapon drawn and his students who loved their teacher who good to them and taught them those kids all pulled out colt revolvers and aimed them at their teachers soon to be killer said mister if you want to kill our teacher your going to have to go through us and if intent on shooting him you be darn sure to remember you will not walk out of there alive. And with that the man left the school house and never ever bothered the teacher again.

This is a true story to.

Moral of the story is a gun allows people to level the playing field, to give a younger person or a older person or a woman and gives them the ability defend themselves or others.

[Phoenix98]

And it's because of thousands and thousands of experiences and examples like that as well as the main reason for the 2nd amendment that we will never give it up.

And unlike Australia we take our natural born rights very seriously and America was not made to be safe, America was made to free and we accept the privileges, rights etc but also the negatives and that unfortunate aspects of that as well.

And instead of worrying about our country, worry about you own first because Australia has more then it's fair share of issues. And then after you fix those issues, forget about us, and don't concern yourself with our affairs, leave them to the people that actually live there.

After all you don't see tons of Americans trying to change your country, or talking about how massively corrupt your government is or how you guys complain and complain about it but yet refuse to get involved in politics and actually try to change anything. So give us the same courtesy.

[Luci92]

Yeah, all valid points about comparison.
So basically, it's fighting guns with guns.

[Phoenix98]

Mhmm

And well yes but also no, it's more then just that but I don't expect someone who's not apart of the culture to feel it in that way that we do.

[Luci92]

Wow, you're pretty bitter.
Guess what! We take our natural born rights very seriously too!
Also, I'm allowed to be concerned in foreign affairs thanks, don't be telling me what to do, so bugger off. No country is perfect, and I am certainly not blind to the issues we face in Australia either.
I am not trying to change your country, or talking about how massively corrupt your government is. It was a simple question about can we compare.
How are us mere Australians supposed to 'actually try to change anything over there' with people like you?

[Phoenix98]

I'm not bitter just tired. plus I've been through this exact same argument with 3-4 other people today, so it gets kind of old.

I never questioned that you didn't but we take our seriously in a different light then you do, was what I was saying, and that we take all of them seriously, most notable the right to self defense because that is what enabled us to create this country and keep it this way for so long.

and your allowed to but it's become somewhat of an obsession for foreigners it's annoying and bothersome especially when they have no business making it theirs since it doesn't in anyway affect them.

And o we know it's massively corrupt but we're taking of that.

[Phoenix98]

That's exactly it your not supposed to, but the governments of the world try to anyway, just a few years ago a few of the countries ( including some of our enemies ) of the United Nations in all it's wisdom tried to get a legislation passed without the consent or knowledge of the people, that would have allowed them to bypass the 2nd amendment which if broke is treason by the way, and come into homes on private property and take our weapons and even use deadly force to do so, thankfully it was defeated. But I'm sure you didn't know, so tell me again that people haven't tried to take them away or trying to change our country?

[WhiteSteve]

Definitely a time for extreme reactions to either side of the issue these past couple days.

Here are the basic assumptions I walk through life with: the average human is an idiot, the average person is "bad" and not worth the flesh and bone we're constructed from, and that human lives are a dime a dozen, on paper, where it matters. And in addition, the "American Way" is not necessarily the "right" way, we don't write the book on how life should be lived by everyone, this is just what the powers that be decided works for us. We're one species of animal on a planet full of them, and somewhere along the way we decided it's OUR world, and everything else just lives in it, which is, in my opinion, the pinnacle of human arrogance. Society itself is a totally bogus concept, a false reality that we've created for ourselves, and that's all well and fine if you think it's comfortable, I'm comfortable too, but we shouldn't lose sight that none of this is how we're supposed to be living, we're supposed to be swinging in trees and chasing our dinner down like everything else on the planet does. So all in all, I have a somewhat animalistic and non-humanocentric view of the world that I find "polite society" to be very uncomfortable with.

So guns have me torn philosophically. I absolutely view life as a game of survival, and kill or be killed, even if we aren't faced with that much in the cushy existence we created. Wayyyyyyy too much value is placed on human life because we let our emotions and personal connections blind us, but really, nobody is worth anything, the market is flooded. So in that sense, I'm like "fuck it, shoot it out, there's too many of us to start with." But on the other hand, I can't get past looking at guns and weaponry as cheating that survival system. Nature intends for the strongest to survive and the weakest to die, but weapons screw that all up. But I also get that we're naturally wired to fight for survival of ourselves and our offspring, and I only argue with society, not nature.

So to me, we should be fighting with our fists, feet, and teeth like we're meant to, so the gun rights/control issue is all jacked up to me. Guns and weapons are an unfortunate reality that we can't undo, and they allow pussies to sometimes survive over stronger specimens, which to me is the biggest problem, naturally speaking. Humans never want to hear this and brand you as some crazy asshole, but when you get down to the brass tacks, that's real. (Continued...)

[WhiteSteve]

And I guess the underlying concept to all of this is that none of us are worth saving. Guns would suggest that we are, that nature or circumstance be damned, we're going to live, because we're scared to die and we don't want people we know who care about us (who also don't matter in the grand scheme of life) to be sad. And that to me just doesn't justify shaking up the system. Nature over human society, always.

[Phoenix98]

That's a interesting mindset to say the least I am not sure exactly how to respond except that I do train in hand to hand combat, and also in bladed combat and hand to hand and blades are what I prefer using for self defense, but I'd also like to have a gun with me because there are cases were my martial arts and knives or whatever won't save me from an individual armed with a gun, and the only thing that will equal the playing field is another gun and since I Can remember I've had this drilled into my head... survive so that's what I plan on doing whether I have to shoot, stab someone or gouge out their eyes with my thumbs I'll do whatever I have to.

It's everyone's natural born right to that.

[aniemist]

In this debate is always one extreme or the other. I think the biggest thing about gun laws is that they need to make sense and not penalize law abiding citizens, and to be honest the problem goes deeper than the guns themselves, its the people using the guns after all.

First you have your law abiding citizens who carry guns, and use them only for protection or for hunting. There is nothing wrong with this at all I would daresay that nobody has problem with this.

Next you have people who are mentally ill and should not be around guns, and to be honest probably shouldn't even be out on the street period. Unfortunately these types almost always find a way to get their hands on guns, illegal or not.

These mentally ill people need help, and it something we ignore all to often since it is easier to do so and doesn't cost anyone anything. We need to stop them from hurting themselves and others, I'm confident that alone would help a lot. Aside from that the only gun control laws they need are the ones we have in place already, just close the loopholes that allow felons or mentally ill people to get them and do better background checks.

I dont think that is that intrusive or unwarranted, if your a law abiding citizen then you shouldn't have a single problem getting your hands on a gun. I don't know that everyone that buys a gun legally needs to take a course on gun safety, but I think that would be a good thing if that was the case.

I think this is a issue that needs a balanced perspective, unfortunately that is not what I see whenever they debate it, I see those with their own agendas not thinking about what is best for everyone, but only the best for select groups of people. Unfortunately this is true for many issues of our time right now.

I think the second amendment is important and is part of who we are, as you said. The problem is not the amendment and its not the existing laws (with exception of the tweaks I talked about earlier, so people dont slip through the cracks) its the people themselves. Good take.

[Phoenix98]

I agree with what you've said, and thank you for doing it in a polite and respectful manner, and thank you.

[Anonymous]

I'm not even going to get into most of what you say. The FBI recently did a study and found the most good guys with guns cannot stop the bad guys with guns and in the overwhelming majority of cases wind up dead. Turns out it takes years of training to be able to properly assess and deal with a chaotic situation such as a mass shooting.

The other thing is - do you really think that you and your guns are somehow going to be able to stop the US government, backed by the US Army, the most advanced military in the world if they wanted to come and take your gun? If the government did want take your guns there is nothing that you could do about it. In fact there are many people that are specifically trained to be able to go in disable and disarm anybody who is trying to hold out on them. That is exactly what a SWAT team is for.
The second amendment was written at a time when it was actually possible to hold off a government sponsored militia for a small period of time with guns of the day. Today the situation is much different.

I don't get how you Americans think that somehow you're safer by everybody having guns when clearly for more people die of guns in your country than all other industrialized countries on earth. Guns actually make your country more dangerous not safe. In my country I don't own a gun and the chances of me being shot are pretty much zero. Even though you own a gun you are far more likely to be shot and killed.
I guess living a life where you must carry a weapon at all times for survival is the kinda life you want. Not I.

[Phoenix98]

do you really think that you and your guns are somehow going to be able to stop the US government, backed by the US Army, the most advanced military in the world if they wanted to come and take your gun? Hmmm that's what the oathkeepers and we're for the oathkeeprs I might add make up a large portion of the military, many law enforcement have also said they will deny any such order given. This is also why the 2nd amendment was put into place for that exact purpose should the goverment turn on the people.

The second amendment was written at a time when it was actually possible to hold off a government sponsored militia for a small period of time with guns of the day. Today the situation is much different. Not really the 2nd amendment never gave such a right it protects it because the right to bear arms is a preexisting right given at birth.

[Phoenix98]

I don't get how you Americans think that somehow you're safer by everybody having guns when clearly for more people die of guns in your country than all other industrialized countries on earth. Guns actually make your country more dangerous not safe. In my country I don't own a gun and the chances of me being shot are pretty much zero. Even though you own a gun you are far more likely to be shot and killed.

Really because in terms of homicides right now out of over 200 countries we're 91 in terms of homicides and most of the counties above us are gun restricted nations.

Also if that is actually true then why hasn't there been a mass shooting in my town since before I was born? why are there no bank robberies, or really any gun crime or gun related deaths at all hmm? and we have the most lenient gun laws in the country.

And like it's already been said America wasn't made to be safe it was made to be free.

[Opinion Owner]

oath! Lol. Cops take oaths- and many still kill innocent people. That's how effective oaths are.

I encourage you to read this. Since it's not from Fox News the stats are much more accurate.
www.vox.com/.../gun-violence-united-states-america

[Phoenix98]

*shakes head*

[Opinion Owner]

Ya I guess there is nothing to say when facts show how wrong you are.

" No other developed country in the world has anywhere near the same rate of gun violence as America. "
cdn3.vox-cdn.com/.../...0developed%20countries.jpg

[Phoenix98]

Really? well then I guess you should tell that to the 100 countries above us with higher homicide and gun related murder rates then, because apparently they didn't get the memo.

[Opinion Owner]

Name one.

[Phoenix98]

What one of the countries?

[Opinion Owner]

Ok not going to argue with stupidity.
cdn3.vox-cdn.com/.../...0developed%20countries.jpg

Enjoy living in fear.

[Phoenix98]

Dude I Was just asking a question relax and to answer that question I'll list 5 countries with higher homicide rates.

Mexico
Brazil
Pakistan
Uganda
Democratic Republic of the Congo

Happy?

Also I don't live in fear, I'm perfectly happy were I live and regularly walk the streets at night without fear also by the way you only further our points by acting like an obnoxious idiot.

[Opinion Owner]

Baaaahahahahaha!!!
Really? The Congo? Uganda?
Rofl!!!
Thanks for making me laugh tears!!
Lolollololokolololol!!!
Holy fuck I can't stop laughing!!!
So fucking funny dude!!

[Phoenix98]

Go ahead and laugh if you want to, facts don't lie, nothing you can say or do is going to change that.

And it's pretty clear that having a rational discussion with you is off the table so goodbye.

[Opinion Owner]

"Guns everywhere make the us safer than... the Congo."
Now there is a 'rational' argument.

Jesus I'm still chuckling about this shit!!

[aficionado]

Well... it looks like this will ALWAYS be a debate. Americans, for the most part, would be willing to give their lives than their right to own guns while those of us outside America can't seem to fathom what's so alluring about guns because we have been having fewer crimes than America.

So the bottom line is... we feel like trying to reason with Americans about guns would be futile and they feel the same as well. Let Americans have their fun with guns. Those Americans who are against every Tom, Dick and Harry owning guns (I'm not sure such Americans exist) can consider moving to a different country. And non-Americans who are fascinated by the gun culture should move to America.

[Phoenix98]

Well that's the thing your foreigners the ones who are unnaturally obsessed with our way of life really have no business being so. And American wasn't made to be safe America was made to be free and being free comes with it's downsides and upsides we learned to live with that and we take our natural born rights seriously and the way our goverment and our laws, amendments are set up is that they intertwine and bind each other together and if one falls the other falls.

After all if people can't be trusted with weapons, then before to long the people in charge will think we can't be trusted with dangerous ideals or ideas either and then there goes the 1st amendment and the right to free speech. Something I've seen being done right now in several countries, Canada being one, were a man disagreed with a feminist, didn't say anything offensive Just I said I disagree with you and guess what? he's currently serving 6 months in prison, and his life has been completely destroyed.

[Phoenix98]

And if they can censor one mans free speech why stop there? why not control everyone why not do it to more people?

And again that's the thing America is not your country it's ours yet you people are so obsessed with changing our laws, our culture our way of life when you don't even live here instead you just complain and cry about the issues while sitting in your own countries on the other side of the planet. Keep it up and we might try to do the same to all of you, just leave us alone and let us sort out "our affairs" which are not yours.

[Phoenix98]

It's better to live with dangerous freedom and peaceful slavery.

[aficionado]

Yes you are right. Americans and their culture is so different. Not just about guns you people even use different spellings (color instead of colour), different units (imperial instead of metric) etc. So yeah, non-Americans just don't understand your ways, but the influx of American movies/TV shows have made them obsessed with everything American. Those people are morons.

Regarding freedom vs safety, if freedom is so important to Americans, why are they required to stop at a red light? It takes away their freedom, but keeps them safe. But yeah, I suppose only Americans would understand that, and even if you tried explaining, the rest of us would not get your point of view at all.

I would personally take safety over freedom any day. But then again, I'm not American.

[Phoenix98]

And that's your choice, and your free to have it, and we're asking is that you let us make our choice, "our" choice not yours and leave us to it.

But the nations of the world just won't by the way it was really fun fighting against the United Nations a couple years back when several foreign nations of the UN decided to introduce a bill that would allow them to to go against the law take our away weapons and right to self defense even by force if necessary.

[aficionado]

On a different note... do you think the family and friends of those who got killed, would still be in favour of guns being available to everyone? They probably won't. I agree with you when you said people outside America won't understand your way of life and your culture. In the same way, those in favour of owning guns probably wouldn't understand it's ramifications when people who got killed were strangers to them.

[Phoenix98]

I know the ones around here do, and I've had friends or people I know robbed before back when I lived in a bad neighborhood and they wish they did have a gun in their house. The old man who lived on that same block opened his door day and a group of punks stabbed him to death, for no reason were was the cops or the goverment as he a veteran in the military who served his country was being brutally murdered? what about them? or the little girls who were strangled to death in a different county by a serial killer who dumped their bodies like trash in the river, were was the cops, the goverment and the safe society to protect them?

Where were the cops, soldiers or goverment when 6 million Jews and 9 million gypsies, homosexuals, and many other groups of people were being brutally, murdered, experimented on and put into death camps to be gassed and tossed into furnaces, o that's right they were the ones killing them, and they had absolutely no way to protect themselves.

[Phoenix98]

And what about the lives that guns do save, the family or the elderly who have break ins and the cops couldn't make it but they were able to defend themselves, or the people in a bank or store who were able to fight off criminals and attackers? or the women who fought off a rapist in a parking lot with a pistol? don't their rights matter.

[aficionado]

I get what you're saying, but then why is is that most other countries which don't allow easy access to guns, also don't have a fraction of gun crimes America does? I keep hearing the argument that when law enforcement officers are allowed guns, the citizens should be too. It does seem sensible on paper. But then, why is this an issue mainly in America, and not anywhere else? Is it because American cops are so trigger happy that the citizens have to be equipped with guns to protect themselves from the cops who are 'supposed' to protect everyone else?

You do have valid points, no doubt about that. But the statistics and numbers say otherwise, unless the stats were fabricated to malign America's stance against guns.

[Phoenix98]

Uh New Zealand has easy access to guns lol military service is mandatory for every male citizen from the age of 18 and up and they keep their service weapon, a military grade assault rifle, in most cases. And gun crimes are almost nonexistent there.

And the answer to that argument is that no other country has earth really has the history we do when it comes to guns and the culture surrounding it. We've been allowed to carry them since our nations creation and it was through the use of the gun that we freed ourselves tyranny and oppression something similar countries have done as well but not to the degree of success of the United States. Through the use of guns we went from an oppressed tiny little colony and steadily rose to power to become one of the if not at one time the most powerful country on earth, and any country that dared oppose us would not only have to go through our military but also through the millions of armed people living there.

[Phoenix98]

Many of which were veterans of wars themselves so having that many guns was a deterrent of sorts from nations that would seek to invade us. And we as Americans have always taken pride in the fact that we are a self sufficient people when it comes to being able to provide for ourselves and protect ourselves whether it's from a criminal, an invading soldier or the states and or goverment itself. It's so ingrained in our culture that you would be taking away a part of what makes us who we are.

And the reason why gun control has worked in other countries is because those countries never had any of that history and freedom, and because weapons were never really a there in large numbers to begin with.

And the statistics and numbers don't say otherwise, in many cases they are in our favor if you had watched the videos above you'd see that, and the numbers and statistics, news and stories they always like to magically leave tou the good guns do.

[Phoenix98]

There's a old Western story I always like regarding guns, there was once a school teacher in the wild west he used to be a criminal a bad guy but he reformed his life for the better. One day a he was teaching and a man from his past came into his school with the intent on killing him with his weapon drawn and his students who loved their teacher who good to them and taught them those kids all pulled out colt revolvers and aimed them at their teachers soon to be killer said mister if you want to kill our teacher your going to have to go through us and if intent on shooting him you be darn sure to remember you will not walk out of there alive. And with that the man left the school house and never ever bothered the teacher again.

This is a true story to.

Moral of the story is a gun allows people to level the playing field, to give a younger person or a older person or a woman and gives them the ability defend themselves or others.

[Phoenix98]

Another more recent story is a 15 year old kid who was home alone with his little brother and two men tried to break into the house one at each door, so that kid went and grabbed his fathers AR15 and shot at the doors and fought off his attackers who probably would have killed both him and his little brother. That gun allowed a 15 year old to level the playing field against two criminals and protect himself and his little brother who is a kid.

[aficionado]

Well... if having guns is so important to Americans, then why are these random shootouts happening so often? The recent shootout at the gay club, you people say it was due to the man being a radical Islamist and had nothing to do with guns. And at other times, the gunman's mental illness is blamed, and not the guns. So yeah, these are all justified reasons, but the common factor here is - you guessed it, guns!

So even considering the guns are for protection, consider this scenario. You are just walking on the streets, and you do have your gun with you for protection. But some gun-wielding nut pops your head from behind, even before you can turn around and use your gun to protect yourself. This cab happen, right?

[Phoenix98]

The common factor is that it was in *gasp* a gun free zone which is were roughly 90%-93% of mass shootings and massacres happen and there are statistics to back that up. And why is that? because there are no weapons and no armed citizens which can shoot the attacker.

And yes that could indeed happen I won't deny that at all, but the same thing can happen with some piano string or rope, or a knife just as easily to which by the way there are more knife deaths per year in the US then there are deaths by rifles, but I don't hear anyone advocating for banning knives.

Also there is actual information to back up including phone calls, that the guy was a ISIS member who targeted the club because it was a gay club, it was attributed neither guns or mental illness the cause is because some Muslim bought into ISIS's toxic viewpoint and thought he was honoring Alla by killing 50 innocent homosexuals. did he use a gun? yes but it's not the gun that drove him to kill 50 people.

[DodgersGM]

A lot of people like to make the claim that more guns means more safety, but is that really so?

All of the research I've done points to the opposite. And honestly, I'm not perfect but I try hard to remain impartial and just search for the facts.

lh3.googleusercontent.com/f8Hma6GBytBmXKkHgi_tQja2PcStfvXmRcQFeBQlOu0Xl4BzpgkED_-Ohw2JqZfn0Noye9I4ICypdPGRZ2hft5hs3X4fJbDPTbUy7Mp2vHJuUNrR0SENqAJhk5wvn-FBBeCPt1KL

What do you think?

[Phoenix98]

Except there is one problem with that graph and that is it doesn't explain what the deaths are attributed to, does it add in deaths of criminals or just legal citizens? are the gun deaths related to suicide, or are they cop related, etc, etc. Another thing it doesn't take into account is were the deaths are according because even the a state can make itself a gun state individual cities can make themselves gun free zones. So were are the deaths happening? in gun zones or gun free zones. And it's because of that lack of information that these types of graphs are very deceptive and not reliable.

And I can make the argument back that guns do help keep places safe like Plano Texas for instance despite being literally gun nut central it has a 0.4 murder rate per 100,000 people. And the most violent city in Texas isn't even in the top 20 most violent cities in America.

[Phoenix98]

And the town I live in has constitutional carry meaning it has the most lenient gun laws in the entire country and guess what? there is almost no gun crime or gun related deaths at all around here. Petty crime like assault, robbery, armed robbery are all down and not very common I can even walk the streets at night from 11pm to 5am if I wanted to and I would never get jumped, shot or stabbed. And I have done exactly that every night for years and I'm still here.

[DodgersGM]

Those figures do include homicides, suicides, accidental gun deaths, and deaths due to legal intervention (i. e. a cop puts a suspect down, etc.).

But still, does that really taint the argument in any meaningful way? It seems like, on a state-by-state basis, that more gun control = less deaths due to guns.

Your second point: do you really think that Wyoming, Arkansas, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, and Alaska (the states with the most gun-related deaths per capita, according to the graph) experience the majority of their gun-related deaths in 'gun-free' parts of the state? Because that seems incredibly unlikely to me.

Side note: I'm not an anti-gun nut, nor am I a gun nut. I have a gun in my home and I have zero problem with responsible regulation. I think we can make it more safe to have guns, and it seems like the numbers bear that out. I'm open to being swayed on that last point, but I just haven't seen any compelling evidence to counter it -- just lots of anecdotal evidence.

[Phoenix98]

Interesting, well what would happen then if we took away all those other gun related deaths and just looked the death ratio of innocent people killed by criminals it would most likely be really low and those are the numbers I look for, because deaths related to things like cops and other factors that don't included gun owners protecting themselves or criminals killings innocents are irrelevant.

Nah I don't think it taints anything.

I really wouldn't know but it would be interesting to find out, and then separate the cause of the deaths as well as who caused them.

And hey that's perfectly fine, personally I think what would help is having mandatory gun information and gun saftey classes that you have to take before you buy a gun, you know just like 1or 2 day for each class type thing or something like that. So that whether or not you own a gun or not your informed about them and know how to properly use and maintain them. As well as be educated on them, I think it would help.

[Phoenix98]

But of course the other thing is the media needs to stop glorifying these killers and turning them into celebrities the media is partly at fault for causing so many mass shootings, because they turn these shooters into celebrities. And we need to be focusing on finding underlying issues that have nothing to do with the gun, like how most if not all the mass shooters suffered bad childhoods and were fatherless. You don't think that doesn't have anything to do with their mentality at all? combine that with being turned into a celebrity overnight by the media and you have a recipe for disaster.

[DodgersGM]

Oh yeah, I definitely think it's a multi-layered issue. Disillusionment of the family unit, poor socioeconomic conditions, a fear mongering by the American media (which is way more influential than people realize) all play a role. And yeah, I do think more common sense measures are necessary in regards to gun control. Some of your ideas sound great to me, actually.

[Phoenix98]

O yeah I totally agree, I mean it's ridiculous to think that just banning guns would solve the issue, it has to be tackled on several levels like you said and thanks.

[OrdinaryGentleman]

"I hate when people say if this happened in america it wouldn't have occurred, compared to france."
The recent attack was in a gun free zone, a club, who the fuck had a gun? One security guard?
It took swat 3 hours to get there, an hour is 60 minutes, each minute is 60 seconds, it takes less than half a second for a bullet to go through a brain of a victim compared to the years apon years of arguing that guns shouldn't be allowed.
I agree that guns shouldn't be allowed to mentally incompetent individuals. But people who are trained, perhaps have classes under their belt, oh the fuck yes does that make sense.
Seriously America, you have strayed to far left and now its time to get back to the center and face reality rather than relying on inconsistent truths and out-right lies. It is the people that is the problem, not the tool.

[Phoenix98]

Indeed and that was a point I was going to make but was to tired to was that I believe in mandatory gun safety classes should be taken before buying a weapon. So that people whether they own a weapon or not are informed about them and know how to people and safely operate and maintain a firearm. Like as an example I bet a lot of anti-gunners didn't know that if you own a firearm in addition to regularly cleaning your weapon, you actually need to shoot it regularly because if you don't gunk builds up in the barrel which can cause to malfunctions and even lead to physical damage to the gun when fired. And with older weapons like muskets can cause the barrel to explode. And that shooting it cleans it out.

It would info like that in the classes and it would be mandatory for anyone that hasn't either previously taken or for military and law enforcement either active or retired. That would go a long way to informing people and properly training them.

[Outofthegrey]

The funny thing about "Gun-Free Zones" is that they don't actually require any gun owner to do anything differently. A gun free zone is a matter of store policy, not legislation, which means that as long as nobody notices (And if you're carrying concealed, why the hell would they notice?) you are perfectly fine.

[Phoenix98]

True and I do know some people who do that, the problem is that most people abide by that protective little sign in the window, and that puts others and themselves in danger. And it also paints a target on their back because killers and sociopaths will look at those areas, and think to themselves it's a gun free zone, no weapons so that means easy prey, easy targets.

And all I know is that when a gun free zone ends up being a blood soaked killing field were monsters are able to take their time choosing victims and killing them execution style then there is a serious problem. And that gun free zones do not work, especially when almost 100% of gun massacres and mass shootings happen in them.

[Outofthegrey]

I agree, but to be fair that gun free zone was also a bar, that catered to gay liberals. So the clientele is a group that typically doesn't own guns, in a location that you could not legally have a gun in regardless of the sign.

[Phoenix98]

Yup that is true and because of that and because the cops were so far away a lot of people died and it could have been prevented.

[lumos]

I just think it should be a lot harder to actually get a gun, and you'd have to get mental health checkups every single year in order to be able to keep your permit. That way you wouldn't even feel the obsessive need to protect yourself with a gun in the first place. You don't solve this problem by giving people more guns.

[Phoenix98]

We've been through this already, mental health checkups won't do much you can be in perfect mental health and still commit the same acts. It would help a little bit but in the long run wouldn't do much, the last gun massacre wasn't a result of mental illness at all, but because the man was a terrorist following the Quran and ISIS.

You don't solve this problem by taking away guns either, and again and again I've told you it's so much more then the need to protect ones self but you'll think whatever you want to. It's useless arguing about it because no matter what is said, or shown I'm not going to change my mind and neither are you.

[lumos]

Considering how many nutcases have used their guns to kill people, yeah it would do at least something. It would help more than blindly giving out guns to anyone who asks for it. A lot of mass shooters have had some type of mental illness. Especially people who start waving their guns around at schools.
Less guns = less gun related deaths. Ask yourself why you even need a gun to protect yourself in the first place.

[AnArtisticMind]

"Ask yourself why you even need a gun to protect yourself in the first place."

Did you even watch the videos? One included an interview with a career home invader who basically said that banning guns would make his life so much easier. He also mentioned offhand that he raped the women he encountered if he found them attractive. Would you want to be one of those women? Gun laws won't stop that monster from getting guns. They will just leave everyone at his mercy.

[lumos]

@AnArtisticMind did I say ban all guns? :)))) Also seems like you didn't really understand my argument. "Ask yourself why you even need a gun in the first place" = the crime rates are crazy in the US, when are you guys ever gonna actually directly tackle that issue instead of sidestepping it and just adding more guns to the mix, while ingoring the bigger picture.

[lumos]

ignoring*

[sailorjupiter]

I do think the GUN CONTROL issues will never ever being implemented in USA, cause USA is the largest exporter in the arms industry in the world. GUN CONTROL will only effected the country resource. and war is the best thing in this industry, it's all about business and money... that's why the world will never live in peace... sadly

[Phoenix98]

Nah War is something we're going to take a break from after Trump is in office, I mean we will have a strong and powerful military and weapons but not to wage war with but as a deterrent.

After all is your being attacked by someone with a knife you pull out a gun, and it deters the enemy and makes them back off.

But anyway the 2nd amendment isn't about money or business for us, it's about protecting our rights we're born with. And the reason why the world will never see peace is because absolute peace is impossible as long as bad and or evil people exist and no matter how hard you try you can never get rid of them.

[sailorjupiter]

nah... it's all political saying that we always heard, but sadly, not much implemented. if you learn more about business, especially related with the oil price (which is very sensitive to the geopolitical environment rather than supply/demand), you will see clearer how all of this related. Politic is always dirty, too bad the innocent lives involved in their game too.

[Phoenix98]

Not this time and I Actually do know about business I help run and am part of my family business and have been working since I was 10 years old. And I agree politics are dirty but not all politicians are dirty even though we'd like to think so, some actually do care but they are few and far between unfortunately.

And again the 2nd amendment has nothing to do with war or oil that's just ignorant thinking.

[sailorjupiter]

I'm talking from the higher level thinking, not specifically to the amendment. what kind of business is it? weapon? oil and gas?

[Phoenix98]

None of the above, though I do personally know several gun shop owners and private sellers and their goals and business are not driven by death, war or a political agenda, despite what you may think.

Also if it really was/is all about the oil how come despite having taken control of quite a few oil field we never once actually took any of the oil itself? we've never profited from any of those incursions when it came to oil profit, not once.

[sailorjupiter]

I think you're wrongly understood my statement, I'm talking about US exporting their weapons in a large scale to foreign countries, where wars will definitely benefit them-USA is the largest exporter in the world! so the focus is selling it outside USA. in domestic business, of course that's not much can be profited, of course the gun owner don't have that kind of KPI/target in their selling, lolz!

the oil/gas price I've said before this the example for my justifications of how the political influence in the business, I'm not talking about US took the oil. US already benefited oil production from the recent Shale Oil technologies,& actually decreasing the OPEC power to control the oil price in the world, that's why the current oil price is hardly increasing since it was dropped from 100usd/bbl to 50usd/bbl now. My point is, it's different from the other common domestic businesses environment.

Well, it's OK. 2many cases, US gov should really do something about gun control, 4 safety

[Amanda2]

There will always be crazy people in the world. I don't know if gun control will help, because in my country its very hard to legally own a gun. Yet many people own them, why because there are always illegal means of getting a gun. I would say this owning a gun doesn't make you safe, there were people killed while carrying a gun.

[Phoenix98]

True having a gun does guarantee you being safe but then again nothing does, but it does increase your chances of being able to survive a deadly encounter and we think that, that is a natural born right given to everyone when they are born. The right to self preservation and self defense in the face of a bad person.

But at the same time it is proven that crime does not rise in states with tons of concealed carry users and that areas with immense gun own-age actually have very little crime. So must be doing something right.

[Amanda2]

Interesting

[Phoenix98]

how so?

[Amanda2]

The relationship between concealed weapons and a reduction in crime. I never knew that

[Phoenix98]

Lol did you watch any of my videos? it's got all that stuff and info in em.

[Amanda2]

No I was on work, but thanks

[Phoenix98]

Ah gotcha, well if and when you have the time if your interested check out some of the videos it's got all the info related to all that stuff.

[Amanda2]

I will, America is a very influential place. It has so many impacts on outside other countries its crazy. I definitely need to be in the know.

[Phoenix98]

Good deal and while that is good, if you want to know about what will impact places outside the US I'd steer towards politics, our gun laws don't affect anyone outside boarders but it's still good to know.

[Amanda2]

It probably will, some maniac may want to repeat the actions of the persons that committed mass murders. Hopefully not

[Phoenix98]

It never has before, and if it hasn't before I highly doubt it will in the future, half the reason why people want to do this here, is because they are sick in the head and the media glorifies them turns them into world known celebrities, this is not the case in other countries, I can't even name a foreign mass shooter, you guys don't glorify them, if they do commit one they die like they lived an invisible nobody.

[Relentless_Hippie]

The fact of the matter is, if you strip away someone's right to own a gun you're also stripping away their ability to defend themselves. Sure, some people might freeze up, but the fact that the option is there is what is important. Taking away guns means not giving people an option to fight. People need to open their eyes and see what's really going down. There's something going on a lot bigger than a few crazies with some guns.

[Phoenix98]

Exactly, you have to honor someones right to defend themselves, even if they freeze up in the moment like you said the option is there. And yeah there is a lot more going on.

[takumii]

I have always been in favor of no guns, I mean, fire all the cops then if you want civilians doing their work. Sure guns can protect you, but so can a semi automatic assault rifle and it will do the job better. But that's just taking paranoia to another level, don't you think?
This isn't GTA..

[Phoenix98]

Tell that to the 15 year old kid who was home alone with his 10-12 year old brother when multiple men tried to break into the house and were blocking all the exists so he couldn't escape and probably would have killed him and his brother but when they tried breaking into the house he took his fathers AR15 and fought all of them and out of the neighborhood.

This was in broad daylight by the way in a nice urban neighborhood.

[Phoenix98]

Thanks to that paranoid rifle he and his kid brother are alive.

[takumii]

15 year old handling guns, smells fresh from middle east. No offence but that's far from ideal to brag about. Killing someone is taking law onto their own hands. It takes a lot to get over from such experience. Had they called the cops or neighbours and locked themselves inside a room, the situation would had been handled without any bloodshed. For breaking into someone's house the the punishment is a couple years in prison.. Not death.

[Phoenix98]

When the seconds matter the cops are only minutes away and the cops themselves are the first ones to admit that they almost never get there in time always after the fact almost never during.

And that's easy to say when you don't have a scared crying kid by your side and 2-3 psychopaths are trying to break into your home. Also there was no one home in the neighborhood because it was the middle of the workday.

Also the kid didn't kill anyone he fired at the doors and had no intention on killing anyone just keeping his little brother safe.

O and by the way here is what happens when you call the cops and someone is trying to break in. Only need to listen to the first minute.

https://youtu.be/DvNeS3KSo2o

[takumii]

Crimes are gonna happen as long as there are criminals and guns won't always stop them. The old lady would had had no use of the gun.. She probably would had gone like.. " where is the safety switch on this thing.. Lemme get my glasses.. Aaah.. Aaah.. Ahh "
NY has banned 'toy guns' and they are gonna keep the fucking real ones. So many people are short tempered , I am more scared of civilians than criminals. That's not freedom.

[Phoenix98]

Really the old lady wouldn't have needed a gun huh? even though she got killed by an intruder and the cops couldn't save her and wouldn't have been able to use it if she had one huh, so basically your calling a dead woman incompetent and that she had no right to defend herself or to have even been given a chance to.

O by the way at the end of the video a gun actually saves an elderly couple from being killed a by a man breaking into their home and guess who wasn't there? the cops.

And yeah NY has strict gun laws but guess what? because of that they also have some of the highest crime rates in the country, shared with California which in some areas is like a damn war zone because of criminals and gangs.

It's clear a rational conversation is impossible with someone like you, honestly some of you people are despicable.

[takumii]

No it's not, you can forget about a rational conversation when your argument is "the criminals have guns.. We want guns too pls govt." Guess what, bombs are in fashion now, guess everyone would want a hand grenade now to protect themselves.

But no matter how I feel guns will be there forever and I have come to accept that.. Even though that sounds stupid to me. Strictly takllking about gun control though, gun free zones are a joke. Its like screaming "Hey criminals, we have handed guns to every citizen to protect themselves but there are certain areas where you can still commit crimes wink wink" There should be control on age requirement, permit and on storage.

[Tarvold]

Look. You can post hypotheticals all you want, but they'll just all be theories.

As an Aussie, I can tell you for a fact that gun controls work. Period.

The real question Americans should ask is why are you all so fucking insecure with yourselves that you need to be armed at all times. If I had to guess, I think you guys should just deal with the root cause of the problem and give everyone free penis enlargement surgery.

[Phoenix98]

And I'll say the same thing that's been repeated so many times just because it worked for you guys doesn't mean it works for everyone. America is not Australia it never will be the people are different the culture is different the mentality is different, laws, goverment, everything is different. Anyone will tell you that it just simply won't work here, because it won't all it will do is led to more violence.

And we're not insecure unlike you guys we just care about our natural born rights, rights that our people died to make sure were protected no matter what, rights that we have at birth, and rights protected no matter what after. You guys may be whiling to do that but we are not, simply as that, and it is frankly none of your business to try to change our laws, our lives, our culture when you don't even live here, but on the other side of the planet it's not "your" nation it's ours so stay out of it.

[Tarvold]

Hahahahaha...

I didn't offer solutions. I didn't give suggestions on how you should run your own country. I didn't even make recommendations on what you can try. All I did was point out the fact that something worked here.

... and you just took the bait just like that and proved my point about your insecurities.

Have a nice day.

[Phoenix98]

Except I wasn't referring specifically to you was I?

Well then we both proved our point.

[GreatnessRevamped]

All this talk about gun control, but no one talks about the underlining issue of mental health.
Most to all of the mass shootings were done by some deranged person, that society turned their back on, and so they retaliated.
It's still bad that these people can get their hands on some guns anyway, but I don't think gun control will solve ALL the world's problems.

Humans have been killing each other WAAAAY before guns were invented.

[Phoenix98]

That's kind of the point I was trying to make on some of the videos like how the media is helping to create these monsters by glorying them and turning them into celebrates overnight almost.

Or how almost if not all of the mass shooters all had something in common, they had no fathers growing up, and were otherwise invisible nobodies.

but of course no one watches the evidence, the videos and instead just spouts there nonsense saying it's the objects fault alone.

[GreatnessRevamped]

Hey, I had no dad, and love being invisible. What you trying to say?

There are millions of single parent households and not all the products of that environment turn out this way.

I still say mental illness of some sort. From experience, males with unchecked mental illness can be violent if left alone and not supervised by someone.

The whole point of MI is to isolate the victim and kill them.

[Phoenix98]

I'm not trying to say anything regarding you, just that there is an underlying issue which isn't guns but the people and mental issues which a a lot of these men share a point we both share.

[pervertedjester]

Forgot the video that sums this all up:

https://youtu.be/85FhIHCQp_A

And I have always agreed with it. Good Take!

[Phoenix98]

Lol exactly lol.

[Curmudgeon]

"Don't blame an entire religion!"

"Blame all the law-abiding gun owners!"

:p

[Phoenix98]

Because clearing innocent people are the problem right? lol.

[Curmudgeon]

It seems the Left have defined *Us* as the enemy. Then again, they defined us as the enemy vs. the Communists too.

[Phoenix98]

True, true.

[Curmudgeon]

Seriously, they used to urge *unilateral* disarmament in the face of Soviet aggression, and would aid and abet the Soviet Turd World Tin-Horn goons like the Sandinistas. I was there. I saw that.

[Phoenix98]

O wow you were? and huh that's messed up and on the subject of Russia even though they don't have anywhere near as many guns as us they have a higher murder/homicide rate lol.

[Curmudgeon]

Yah, leftists used to have "Yuge" (as Donald Trump would say) demonstrations in cities like San Francisco. Where the Soviet Consulate was, and yes, they would get "assistance".

[Phoenix98]

Pfft wow that's just messed up.

[ConsultantIsBack]

And this is why we'll always continue to have shootings in America until common sense can be enacted instead of politicized smh

[Phoenix98]

Common sense would be to stop trying to take way peoples natural born right to self defense and self preservation and instead encouraging it and educating and informing the population. through mandatory gun safety classes which aim to educate people about weapons as well as teaching individuals the proper maintenance and use of them.

And most of the time you can't rely on the cops because when the seconds count the cops are only minutes away and they'll be the first to admit that they rarely ever get there during the crime, almost always after and by then it's to late.

And we'll always have shootings in America no matter what you do, you'll have them everywhere, there is no permanent solution to that problem or any one solution, the fact of the matter is as long as evil and bad people exist in this world these things will always happen.

[Careless_Whisper]

Sure, let Americans give all their guns to the corrupt government so that Martial law can take over. Stupid liberal.

[ConsultantIsBack]

@Careless_Whisper ok, keep watching youtube videos lol keep things at your level you'll be okay sweetie lmao

[Phoenix98]

@Careless_Whisper

There is no need for that whisper he wasn't doing anything wrong so show him some respect.

[QuestionMan]

What's your alternative solution?
I'd love to see the 2nd Amendment in Canada especially with the rising gun violence people need to be able to protect themselves. Right now the laws are very restrictive compared to the US so much so that you can't go hunting without informing the RCMP (our version of the FBI) of where you're going, what gun you're taking, how you're going to get there and your ETA.

[MakeAmericaGA1]

Common sense? Lol. No. Someone with common sense would know that weapons will be around regardless, whether it be legally or illegally.

[Phoenix98]

@Careless_Whisper But you will be respectful on my post or you'll be barred from it, don't cause trouble were there isn't any.

[Careless_Whisper]

up yours :)

[Phoenix98]

He won't be spamming your opinion anymore Tim.

[ksoma]

That many Bill Whittle videos, I have no choice but to thumb up your take.

[Phoenix98]

Hey the man is smart and educated and actually knows what he's talking about, gotta prove your point by using substantial and reliable sources right? and thank you I only just found his videos a few weeks ago but I love this guy his mental illness video was funny.

[giggleswilmington]

Until Australia is on the Mexican border, there is no comparison between the US and Australia as far as gun control and crime are concerned.

[Phoenix98]

Yup I agree with you, yet idiotic people keep bringing it up because Australia and the United States of America, our history, our culture and our laws are just so darn similar apparently.

[Waffles731]

I'm a liberal and I FUCKING LOVE GUNS,
My cold dead hands

[Phoenix98]

GOOD!

And my hands are cold but alive, but we know how to warm them up right? ;)... to the gun range!

[Waffles731]

"And my hands are cold but alive, but we know how to warm them up right? ... to the gun range!"
my hands are perputually cold,
I got no fucking clue, My hands get cold even when I'm outside all day in 90 degree weatherm
I literally have to keep a blanket on them for them to stay warm

[Phoenix98]

Well that's why we use the heat of the barrel to warm them up, I mean if Ted Cruz can make bacon with it I'm sure we can warm your hands up. But beware they may try to institute and assault blanket/heater ban.