Why Did Jesus Tell Lies?

[Sachem]

In John 14:12 Jesus said, "Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father."

This means that his ministers could duplicate and surpass all of his miracles. We have television evangelists types throughout our society who claim they can produce miracles such as healing the sick and raising the dead. But when challenged to do so, none can even begin to do any such miracles. Hebrews 13:8 says Jesus is the same today and forever. Thus, what we see in the bible is supposed to be happening today. But it doesn't.

So where are those miracles today?

Has anyone seen the sick and the dead raised?

Why did Jesus lie when he said any of his ministers could duplicate & surpass his miracles?

We know that Isaiah 45:7 reveals that this god is the creator of ALL evil = "I form the light and create all darkness (or calamity or evil or disaster).'' So why tell lies and create this evil?

[jennifer_bloom]

I know people who can heal the sick and I know people who have reversed incurable medical conditions in themselves because when you learn to both trust and love God, access to miracles is just as easy as access to water, but God attaches a cost to his gifts, which you, God or some caring person must pay before the gift can be given, otherwise we would be living like astronauts in space with no resistance or friction against us when we seek to move in any particular direction. The struggles of life is used to force repentance and opportunities for repentance in our lives, any struggle that does not serve that purpose is a human error that God will one day fix.

[Sachem]

"know people who can heal"

Kindly identify them. Jesus and his followers made it a point to do these miracles in public. This way everyone would be stimulated to attend church services and to live a biblically based life. So why keep it a secret?

Let's see these miracles if they really exist.

[jennifer_bloom]

The Jewish bible says God is a God who hides himself. My friends from church said God does not make himself obvious because he wants to give us a choice of whether we want to believe in Him or not. if God made pink gorillas fly in the sky, there would be no choice to not believe, you would have no option but to believe in a higher power. The reason God is hidden is that God wants you to choose him voluntarily, rather than being forced to believe in Him against your will.

[Sachem]

@jennifer_bloom

My question wasn't about this god hiding himself. It was about Jesus and his failed promise to present ministers who obeyed and practiced his laws such as by performing miracles. The promise was to stand for eternity but daily life shows no such evidence. But since you said you know of people who perform miracles, kindly identify them.

[jennifer_bloom]

I know people who can cure disease s and reverse health problems.

[Staximus]

Because Jesus was a cult leader. Just another dude, not any more the son of god than you or me. He wasn't born from a virgin and he didn't come back from the dead.

[Staximus]

Christianity and Islam both worship a man, (Jesus and Mohammed) which is the definition of a cult

[Staximus]

Pretty much all religions are cults

[jshm2]

You mean "John" not Jesus. As there is no evidence Jesus said those words, and no one knows who the writers of the gospel of John are.

[strateguy632]

But your quote did NOT specify WHICH "work" who said healing?

nor when... our standard interpretation for all prophecy is "if it didn't happen yet, it WILL happen" in the second coming, also your quote has the future word "will" so maybe will in the new world.

[Jay-_-]

Sachem clearly you are biased... People responded to your question and you automatically go towards your biased opinion, you have zero intentions in understanding the Bible clearly.

[Jay-_-]

I would love to see your sources, since you are so "fact based". Where have you been witnessing a true follower and believer of God that didn't perform a miracle?

[Jay-_-]

Read the Bible with an unbiased mind it's far from a cult, it only asks of you to do good and if you can't do that you might want to consider who's really in a cult.

[Sachem]

@Jay-_-

As a literary scholar, I fully know the bible. In fact I have engaged in public debates about it. That same book promises healings and miracles upon asking. OK, I'm asking. Let's have them or forevermore hold your peace...

[Jay-_-]

As every "literary scholar" go in a debate with someone who truly knows sound doctrine I would do it but not a fan of "debate"

[Jay-_-]

But I'll leave you with this.

[Jay-_-]

"For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths."

[Jay-_-]

2 Timothy 4:3-4

[Sachem]

OK, so I take it that you cannot produce any evidence of healings and miracles as are promised ib the bible. Correct?

Here's your chance to prove that the premise of my topic is "wrong". But I expect that you won't.

[Jay-_-]

It doesn't matter who is doing the healing at the end of the day I have witnessed with my own eyes, it is the work of God and of course you expect "I won't" because you have no true intentions on learning and you gave it away with saying "as a literary scholar, I fully know the Bible" we both know you are lying because if you truly knew the whole Bible and had common sense you wouldn't be asking these self explanatory questions and I've dealt with "all knowing scholars" who claim to "know the Bible" so has Cliffe Knechtle search him up you'll see all kinds of debate. I have witnessed miracles with my own eyes maybe I was blessed to witness it because God doesn't show everyone there's plenty of evidence in the Bible it's like me asking you to prove you were born, you would use a birth certificate correct? Well the Bible is my certificate for proof and plenty of things said in the Bible have been fulfilled but yet because you don't understand we won't come to an agreement.

[Jay-_-]

Like I said I'm not into debate you want to see debate there are plenty of Christians debating a "know it all scholar" they answer all the questions if you truly want to be taught search up the debate. If you continue to push this convo any further you aren't here for answers you are here for a biased argument.

[Jay-_-]

And if you truly want to be taught the Bible search up Billy Graham

[Sachem]

I'm still waiting for proof that any of these Christian "ministers" actually perform these miracles. Let's see them once and for all.

[Jay-_-]

Yea totally man my paragraph was self explanatory what do you want videos?

[Jay-_-]

I clearly told you what you need to do, you are just proving my point the more you entertain this conversation.

[Jay-_-]

Do me a favor and explain what makes you say you can duplicate his power we can perform very much with our faith but you are taking it completely out of context.

[Jay-_-]

Jesus is the same today and forever yes he is , his loyalty, his love, his grace is what he is referring to, also there is plenty of news of Bible prophecies being fulfilled today if you actually did your research you would know that. The only one who has the power to raise from the dead is God you also would know that, you took it all out of context which is more proof you are not at all reading the Bible you are just taking out bits and pieces from whatever you think suits you in your opinion, it's common but no need to pretend like you know the Bible either.

[Jay-_-]

They perform the miracle but not of their own power. Jesus performs the miracle through them.

[Jay-_-]

Jesus' unchanging and eternal nature, meaning his character, promises, and power remain constant throughout all time and because you don't see it doesn't mean it's not true as you can't see air but you still breathe.

[Jay-_-]

Don't say Jesus tells lies when it's humans who misrepresented him.

[Sachem]

Sorry pal but you are wrong. The word for "works" in John 14:12 is the Greek word "ergon" {ἔργον} which refers to deeds and actions. See blueletterbible org (sorry, am still not allowed to post links). Therefore, the line cab be rendered in modern English as "my ministers can perform even greater miracles than I do". Thus meaning that we are supposed to be having miracles such as healing the sick, raising the dead, feeding masses of people with only one basket, etc.

It has been stated here that such miracles take place. Let's see them now. By the way, according to the bible, what ever you ask for in Jesus name will be granted. I ask in the name of Jesus that these miracles be demonstrated right here, right now. After all, I'm rather old and sickly and need those miracles NOW, not in some other lifetime.

I'll wait.

[Staximus]

@sachem is right. Jesus was just another roadside carpetbagger tent show

[Jay-_-]

@Sachem since we are being "technical" it also says to cut off your arm if it causes you to do evil with it. Clearly you know when there are metaphors but clearly you are going to bypass that because it's convenient for you. When I am being biased I can easily search for anything on a website, read the Bible not a website, I can find bleach is good for the eyes if I want to.

[Jay-_-]

Just to clarify Jesus is not a metaphor. Explain to me since you know so much Mr scholar, what does Jesus ask of us to do when it comes to our actions? I'll make the questions easier... What commandments does Jesus ask of us to keep?

[Jay-_-]

I'll wait for you to go to google...

[Sachem]

I don't have to Google as I know the answer and probably read/understood it before you were born. Let's have those miracles, now...

[Staximus]

There never were any miracles, or else there would be again

[Sachem]

@Staximus

That would explain why we don't see any such thing today. Otherwise, Jesus was the world's biggest liar.

[Staximus]

Jesus may have existed but he was just another man

[Sachem]

Still waiting for those "miracles" ...

[Jay-_-]

If you truly wanted to know you'd do your research, instead you want to be ignorant. At first you "athiest" thought Jesus doesn't exist, then there was proof he does exist now you say he's real but he's not god, with you people it's endless go do your research and you'll see whatever you truly want to figure out.

[Staximus]

If you think Jesus was a god then you're dumber than a bag of hammers.

[Jay-_-]

@staximus if you are an atheist you can't be talking.

[Jay-_-]

@Staximus *

[Staximus]

The Bible is not evidence that Jesus is anything more than just another dude

[Sachem]

''can't be talking''

nonsense -- on the contrary, those who claim they see miracles all the time need to produce proof of their claims

[Jay-_-]

@Sachem I don't know where you came from, but this discussion was long ago, regardless, you can ask for proof all you want but you don't live your life off of proof, you are just a hypocritical human you want proof when it suits you, so if someone is speaking nonsense it's you.

[Sachem]

@Staximus

''If you think Jesus was a god then you're dumber than a bag of hammers.''

Ironically, while Jesus and his followers claim he is "prince of peace'', more people have been killed in his name than for any other reason in history.

[Jay-_-]

And I saw you mentioned me on another thread, I didn't give up on anything, I don't waste my time with leftist like you bro.

[Jay-_-]

@Sachem clearly you have some internal battle in you that is itching inside of you, you have many questions unanswered whether you want to admit or not. Clearly there's more truth to this than what you want to accept or believe, I'm not interested in debating you brother, you'll figure out soon enough.

[Sachem]

on the contrary, you're biased

again WHERE ARE YOUR MIRACLES?

[Jay-_-]

And Again I say, where's your proof since you are proof based?

[Jay-_-]

Because if you really want to speak on being biased you might want to reflect your life really quick before you continue.

[Jay-_-]

There's more proof of God and that's factual. If you say otherwise you might as well be a flat earth believer. (That's what I'm going to leave you with.)

[Sachem]

that applies so much more so to you -- now answer my question and provide evidence of those miracles

if this nonsense continues I'm going to put you on BLOCK since all you do is to repeat the same nonsense over and over again

[Jay-_-]

If you think your point is solid, you are quite literally dumber than a bag of hammers.

[Jay-_-]

I already made my point. Unless you have comprehension issues I'll make it clear, block me, you continued this discussion 5 months later you've gotten your questions answered, you've just been too scared to accept. Can't believe you are clinging on to this discussion. You'll come to clarity soon enough bro. Take care.

[Staximus]

Hahaha this guy said Billy Graham, Billy Graham was a sack of shit

[Staximus]

Not a good guy at all

[Jay-_-]

@Staximus and you are correct?

[Staximus]

Billy Graham was a fucking roadside tent show carpetbagger

[Dargil]

Matthew 24:6

[Sachem]

matt 24:6

You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come.

Not relevant here but worthy of its own thread.

[Dargil]

but the end is not yet is now I read it. Meaning to me, results matter.

[Sachem]

Well, it looks like Jay and others have given up on proving that this Jesus lived up to his promises which prove he was a liar. Or as mentioned above, did not exist or was just another man rather than divine.