For Christians and theists in general, who's responsible?

[AndrésC64]

If I do something intentionally (it wasn't an accident), of my own free will (I wasn't coerced in any way), and I know the consequences of my action ahead of time, should I be held responsible for the consequences of my actions?

[strateguy632]

Yes you the human are responsible for as you said "your actions".

god is not responsible for "your actions" because YOU are.

[AndrésC64]

Wrong. Because you're invisible friend ticks every box that I had listed above. That makes him responsible. Thank you for playing.

[XXblack88]

Well of course you should. You don't have to be a Christian to be held responsible for your wrong doings

[AndrésC64]

I agree. Unfortunately for Christians, that would include their God being responsible. But they just absolutely can't have that so they spin and sodge and weave to try to get out of it.

[XXblack88]

hmm 🤔 God's responsible? for what? given us free will to do as we please? maybe you can help me understand where God is at fault?

[AndrésC64]

Wrong. With your invisible friend that there is no free will. He created the universe intentionally exactly as he wanted it. He could have created it differently, but he chose to create it the way it is. That makes everything his fault.

[AndrésC64]

I can't do anything other than what God knew I would do when he created me as I am. If I were to do something other than what God created me to do, God wouldn't be omniscient, would he? So I can't do anything other than what he knows I'm going to do, and what he knew I was going to do before he created me exactly as he wanted.

[WhitneySnow]

Of course. It’s not God’s fault.

[AndrésC64]

But it is. Because God fits every single criteria I listed above. That makes everything his fault.

[WhitneySnow]

I don’t understand

[AndrésC64]

No, it is God's fault. He checks every single box I listed above. That means he's responsible.

[WhitneySnow]

What? I really don’t get it

[AndrésC64]

God created the universe and everything in it intentionally it wasn't an accident. He wasn't coerced into creating the universe as he did he chose to create it as he did. He knew and knows how everything was going to turn out including me typing this response to you. That makes him responsible. I can't do anything other than what he created me knowing I would do. If I do something other than what he knew I would do he would be wrong. But he can't be wrong because he's omniscient. And don't even get me started on the impossibility of omniscience.

[WhitneySnow]

You’re making my head spin. I just believe. Intuitively. I don’t apply reason to it.

[AndrésC64]

Well there's your reason. Or lack thereof.

[WhitneySnow]

I believe in some things intuition is more powerful than reason. It’s a very feminist theory, though I don’t think a lot of them would like how I’m applying it.

[AndrésC64]

But it is his fault. He created everything EXACTLY EXACTLY 100% as he wanted. He COULD have created things differently, BUT HE CHOSE TO CREATE THIS UNIVERSE, EXACTLY AS IT IS. That makes HIM 100% RESPONSIBLE FOR EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENS IN THIS UNIVERSE.

[WhitneySnow]

God gave us free will

[AndrésC64]

No he didn't!!

If I do something intentionally (it wasn't an accident), of my own free will (I wasn't being coerced), and I know what the consequences of my action will be, I am responsible for those actions, right?

[AndrésC64]

Right?

[WhitneySnow]

No. What we do with our free will is not on God.

[AndrésC64]

Jesus Christ. Yes it is! If I do something intentionally (it wasn't an accident), of my own free will (I wasn't being coerced), and I knew what the consequences of my action would be, should I be held responsible for the consequences of my action? Yes or no?

[WhitneySnow]

That question has nothing to do with God. He gave us free will. We are responsible for our own actions.

[AndrésC64]

Answer the F-ing question!!!

[WhitneySnow]

No. It’s not relevant and you’re just trying to trap me with rhetoric.

[AndrésC64]

So you're not going to answer the question. Typical. Because you know what the answer is but your faith won't allow you to say it. That's what religion does to people.

[LiamS95]

You will be whether you want to or not.

[AndrésC64]

Evidence?