Believing in equality just means you're a reasonable person!
Yes, there are levels to 'feminism'. Feminazis are a radical group of people who've distanced themselves so much from what feminism actually is and means...that they've become a radical subgroup...which actual real feminists don't support.
[Correlate this with Islam and ISIS (a radical comparison...but it works) - Islam is a religion, no one hates it or opposes it...just like feminism, ISIS is a radical terorist group which tries to destroy people's beliefs and undermine others - but it's based on Islam and just like feminazis who have been birthed from feminism...are unaccaptable. (One is definitely more unaccaptable than the other though...).]
*Don't hate Muslims for what ISIS did (and is doing), don't hate all Germans for what Hitler did, don't hate feminists for what feminazis stand for (feminazis being the lightest of all of these transgressions.)
Feminism is about equality between the sexes and why it's called feminism: because men GOT all the perks, all the niceness, all the credit, all the belief, all the money, all the respect, all the rights...
Now, we've made it equal on a lot of planes, but there are still quite a few we have to work through.
Feminists work incessantly for women to be equal to men. No more no less.
You can be a traditional man or a woman and still be a feminist - if you believe in the equal pay for equal work, equal freedoms and expectations, if you believe women shouldn't be harassed because they're wearing a summer dress in the summer...if you believe women deserve the same respect as men. You are a feminist.
I believe in equality, I know women are capable of achieving great things, I know rape is horrible, that a man should not punch his wife, that we should have the same rights, etc but I don't call myself a feminist, I just have a decent perception on how things should be. I know we can be independent and all but I still appreciate a guy opening the door door for me because I see it as a nice gesture not as him implying Im useless (maybe an extreme example but oh well haha) I don't know when the world became so fucked up that we had to have titles for believing in things that should be normal.
I am going to challenge you here. WHAT EXACTLY is it that we need to work on? I'm a very hardcore egalitarian and I am strongly opposed to the feminist movement. So you tell me where women are disadvantaged to men in modern society and if I can't disprove it with logic I will succumb to your line of thinking. Also, the gender stereotypes are stereotypes because they hold truth. All stereotypes, regardless of their origins, hold some kind of intrinsic truth. Whether you like it or not. It may not be WHOLE truth, but it's still truth.
@lyannamormont The gender pay gap is the average difference between men's and women's aggregate wages or salaries. It doesn't account for multiple key variables in the different scenarios such as negotiated pay, differences in education, differences in tenure, differences in experience and differences in career choices. It is merely the difference in generalised gross pay (pre-income tax) and only serves to prove that women on average choose lower-paying careers and jobs. Furthermore, if companies could pay women less why don't they just hire all women and reap the benefits of a huge market advantage?
The Gender Pay Gap is a myth and lie perpetuated by the feminist movement and holds no significant weight or value as an argument in Politics, Debate or Modern Society.
Basically, when debating about feminism you dig your own grave with bringing up gender pay differences because a quick google search will disprove you entirely.
I hate to break it to you, but many, MANY people oppose Islam. The only people that don't are Muslims themselves obviously and in an ironic twist, Feminists/SJWs. They are too busy seeing them as oppressed to realize they are defending the largest group of misogynists on the planet.
I've never seen moderate feminists give any push back towards 'feminazis' at all. It's almost as if they are happy to have added voices no matter how radical.
So feminism is called feminism because men have everything? Sounds like an attempt at misfired justice more so than equality. Which is what this all boils down to. Feminism doesn't give a damn about men's issues. By definition, it has to in order to be about equality. Otherwise, again... misguided justice.
What perks do men get? I can name a good amount of perks that women get...
All the niceness? I'm not sure what that even means.
All the credit? For what? History? Sure, women weren't treated that well in the past. They are now. Also, one of the major driving forces for male success and accomplishment is to please and impress women.
All the belief? Again, not sure what this means.
All the money? This isn't the 50s anymore. Women work. Women are graduating college at higher percentages than men now. Money is also the biggest driving factor in actually obtaining a relationship from a male perspective.
All the respect? What lack of respect for women then? Men catcalling in public? We can't stop random idiots.
All the rights? Honestly, this is a genuine question. Name some legal rights that men have that women do not.
Your chart is silly. Nothing is actually stopping women from pursuing higher paying jobs or positions of power.
You really shouldn't tell people what they are. I assure you, I whole-heartedly believe in equality of the sexes, but I am certainly NOT a feminist. I'm an egalitarian. You choose to belong to an ideology that constantly plays the victim, doesn't give a shit about men, lies all the damn time and constantly attempts to ignore, block or outright ruin the lives/careers of many that simply disagree.
Of course we can't have a feminist discussion without bringing up the wage gap. It doesn't exist. It's illegal to pay women less than men for equal work. The equal pay act of 1963.
I'm not sure how you expect to stop men from negatively verbalizing towards women in public without becoming a full blown fascist state.
It's been said before, but it bears repeating. If it's about equality, then it can't be called "feminism", at least not anymore.
The problem is that feminism today can't seem to make up its mind on what it's supposed to be, whether it's about asserting women's equality with men, a radical independence from men, or a superiority over men. There's so much internal confusion about it. Feminists proudly call themselves so, but then when Kaley Cuoco says she's not a feminist or when ANY woman says she doesn't need feminism... https://m.memegen.com/2yffwf.jpg
There's also disagreement on values. For instance, 1960s feminist activist Betty Friedan supported pornography, but third-wave feminist blogger Jessica Valenti is adamantly opposed to it.
Side note: I have a hard time trusting the objectivity of blog whose logo is a mudflap girl flipping everyone off (Jessica Valenti started "Feministing").
I was taught not to call women "hot" or "chicks". I am strongly opposed to pornography, strip clubs, and prostitution. However as a Catholic, I am also strongly opposed to abortion and I stand by the Church's dogmatic (unchangeable) teaching that women are not to be admitted into the priesthood. I'm even against female altar servers. Based on this, would you say I believe or don't believe in the dignity and value of women?
It's incorrect to say that believing women deserve the same respect as men makes someone a feminist. Again, if it's about equality, it's not feminism. Believing that someone should be treated with dignity and respect simply makes you a person. I mean, read this MyTake and tell me one thing that's specific to feminism... https://www. girlsaskguys. com/dating/a10206-10-tips-for-dating-a-feminist
Believing in a person's value and dignity doesn't make someone a feminist. It simply makes them a decent human being. Feminists try to make everyone feminists by claiming that valuing women makes them a feminist. If someone quotes the Bible, does that make them a Christian? Or if someone thanks a soldier for his service, does that make them a conservative (or even supportive of a war effort)? Or how about this. If someone likes cheeseburgers, is their favorite restaurant McDonald's?
In my opinion, feminism today is a solution that's looking for a problem.
You're a very smart girl, Sal, but I can't give my nod to this.
Feminism is attempting to reach equality by only focusing on the problems of one gender.
Egalitarianism is about equality.
There are advantages that women have over men as well. There is nuance. Sometimes men have the advantage, sometimes women do.
Legally speaking, in the western world, men do not have a single right that women do not. To say that they're not "quite equal" is fallacious. You are equal, on a systematic level.
Does gender bias exist? Of course it does, and you know what: you can be biased against men too. No one is ever going to be 100% unbiased about things, because last I checked we're not robots.
The wage gap mentioned above is also fallacious... I think Maddox explained it best: thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=hire_women (he posted SEVERAL links backing this up at the bottom of his article so you can read them and make up your own mind). Realistically speaking, yeah, there's a very tiny wage gap... probably about 3-5% (I've seen differing accounts of this... www.glassdoor.com/research/studies/gender-pay-gap/ is one of them). But is it reasonable to assume that such a gap exists due to gender bias? Probably in some cases, but if 7% of the 23% wage gap cannot be explained, and women are, according to one of the studies posted by maddox, 7% less likely to negotiate for higher salaries, is it possible that maybe the whole thing could be nuanced? Sometimes it's gender bias (which is dealt with legally, please if you have evidence of it happening, I'm all behind you taking that employer to court), other times it's just women not as willing as men, generally, to kick the hornet's nest.
Meanwhile, overseas, women suffer from the 2-finger test of virginity, genital mutilation, forced marriages, child/pedo marriages, torture, rape (with no ability to face their accuser or else be stoned to death)... the list goes on. The only complaint I've heard from women in the western world is that men can be jerks or chauvinistic sometimes. Sometimes that's illegal, but most times the only reasonable conclusion you can come to is that it's rude, and some men are dicks.
I consider myself a feminist because I've donated to rescue efforts to help the oppressed women overseas, and I consider myself an egalitarian in the western world because I too believe in equality, whether it require the men to adjust themselves, or women to adjust themselves.
Feminism is NOT about equality and never has been.
Feminism at it's CORE is about hating men. The leaders of the movement Solanas, Dworkins, Greer, etc. Have ALL spewed hate towards men. These women are the "idols", the faces, the studied and quoted. These women are not "rouge" or "femnazis" they are the face of feminism. Major feminist Groups like NOW and WAR have lied and spread bullshit to push agendas. NOW has twice suppressed males fighting for equal parental rights.
PAY GAP is a myth and has been disproved for decades. Taking ALL jobs of men and ALL jobs of women and adding the totals is NOT accurate. EVERY TIME you break it down by job role, duties, time worked, leave, etc. There is NO gap. And expecting women who are teachers to get paid the same as men who generally take jobs that kill them... is NOT equality.
Western women are the MOST privileged group of humans to ever exist in our existence. Yet feminism claims women are somehow less equal to men because in 3rd world countries women are under privileged. Yet at NO point does western feminism ever actually go and fight for equality in 3rd world areas. They stay where they are safe and complain about men sitting comfortably on busses, a fiction wage gap, false and skewed rape and dv statistics. Playing the victims and acting completely ignorant about the mass amount of privilege they actually have.
A school system biased in their favor. 250+ scholarships for women only, 3 for men only. Government programs and grants. Shelters and assistance for victims of crimes that are EQUALLY occurring for men. Quotas and bonuses in the work place. Longer life span, due in part to a society that protects and provides for them. Ex: More money for health issues even when those issues kill less than male issues. A court system which benefits them. - 100% parental rights. - Less punishment for the same crimes as males. - Bias in divorce generally leaving men destitute. - - (Which leads to the next item) - Massive male suicide rates *because we are considered disposable by society, have no help when the victims of women, or have our children used as weapons to hurt us. ** The list goes on **
So as much as I appreciate that you drank the feminist Kool-Aid... ANY actual research into the matter will quickly show that feminism is not only unneeded in western society, it is actually more harmful than it is helpful, to both women and men.
if you believe in the equal pay for equal work - 1. this is already true and the concept of unequal pay has been disproven more times than I can count (ok a bit hyperbolic because its obviously below 999 nonillion, but still do some research somewhere other than everyday feminism) 2. People will be paid what they agree to work for, if someone else asks for more and gets paid more than you but you were happy why are you upset now, is them making more money harming you or do you just believe in the ridiculous fairytale of a fair world? (because if so you might want to wake up from your dream every person is a selfish asshole its just human nature) equal freedoms and expectations- Freedoms I support (though name 1 that women don't have). Expectations will necessarily differ between different people because people are different from each other. I for instance am not going to be happy with a grade that some of my friends would be happy with because we aren't the same. Similarly I would be expected to fail if I were to replace a quarterback in the NFL. if you believe women shouldn't be harassed because they're wearing a summer dress in the summer - This I support but saying "hey you look beautiful" really isn't harassment. Its called flirting and women only complain when its someone they don't find attractive doing it. If however someone is stalking you or physically coming on to you that is different however both of those are crimes if reported (stalking and assault respectively) if you believe women deserve the same respect as men- I base my respect on an individual basis but if you mean basic respect as human beings than yeah obviously but that really isn't the definition of a feminist. You are a feminist.- Sorry no. (Good on you at least for realizing that feminism is a religion at least. You know, because you deny basic reality in favor of blind faith in equally unqualified persons who will use you to make money and push their political agendas using a once good movement as the proof that they are right)
Feminism isn't about equality, its never been about equality. Its started out as a human rights moment with the suffrages. And look at what its become now. Feminism then, www.tchevalier.com/.../march.jpg Feminism now, ionehellobeautiful.files.wordpress.com/.../14270486522329.jpg Let's face it there is NO real reason why its required. Strong people will forge head, they weak will always stay behind. At the end of the day, its not equality that wins the day. Its Darwinism that determines your worth. quotes.lifehack.org/.../...sy-lives-pray-89467.png Words to live by. Man or woman. Of course.
Wow... this girl really loves her feminism... Im just trying to figure out if it stems from man-hate, overcompensation, or deception... not sure We can't be totally equal @LittleSally boo boo... I've been told before that we can't be naturally equal... which i accept, then the moron told me that socially and politically, we can be equal. i couldn't help but burst out laughing... most of the social and political inequality STEMS from the natural inequality. I mean, let women get paid the same, sure, maybe they can start paying for their own shit. I mean, let women be socially equal, next time she's getting the smart slapped off her mouth, or being raped, we can all whistle and walk by. I mean, let women be naturally equal, when she gets pregnant... she can either choose between that and her job. Darling, i am ALL for equality. but Feminism only wants the GOOD side of being a man... no no boo boo... take the bad too... take em all lol. Morons dont know they have it GOOD.
"You can be traditinal and still be a feminist-tradition doesn't oppose feminism" even the walls of my house are laughing.
"The nuclear family must be destroyed. Whatever its ultimate meaning, the break up of families is an objectively revolutionary process" Linda Gordon - Feminist Manifesto 1967
In the meantime feminists have bigger problems like sexist airconditioning: www.telegraph.co.uk/.../
Or demonstrating with against White men (because they only have a problem against White men) with banners like "Please White men, do not save us if we get raped by muslims" tundratabloids.com/.../...-raped-by-immigrants.jpg
It's funny how fast everything changed, with women once saying that men were privileged. Now it's men saying that women are privileged, and the best part is that not many women actually realize how they are, which just proves the point. The privileged don't know that they are privileged and it takes somebody less privileged to point that out to them, that's how it works.
Feminism isn't about equality anymore and besides what everybody else has or will point out, a huge problem about the empowerment of females is that it completely abandoned boys. That's why you're seeing so many young boys committing suicide or growing into adults with video game addictions and low paying jobs because they barely could pass school, they never got the same amount of encouragement to do well academically like their female peers did. Men used to feel an obligation to do well in school or to obtain a high-paying job so that they could support a family in the future, but feminism will continue to create generations of boys who are too lazy and unmotivated because of its mostly exclusive support of girls instead of both genders. Just take a look at how many women are now in college compared to men. Yes, feminism is totally about both men and women. I can't wait for women to collectively come to the realization that they screwed up and that they hate being the bread-winners in their relationships. They'll then say, "Well, shit. Where'd all our men go? I'm tired of dating men that don't make nearly as much money as I do."
1. How can an organisation that originated from, and still sees the issues froom the female's side truly claim to know that is needed to be done to achieve equality? And if you say they do support male issues, name ones they've adressed and/or solved.
2. "if you believe in the equal pay for equal work, equal freedoms and expectations" you have that already! You're bound by law to get equal pay for equal work, you have the same freedoms more or less (yes, men are advantaged in some areas, but so are women in others), and the matter of social expectations goes both ways!
3. "Feminism is about equality between the sexes and why it's called feminism: because men GOT all the perks, all the niceness, all the credit, all the belief, all the money, all the respect, all the rights..." except no we don't. The reply section is too short, but i can easily list several areas women are advantaged considerably or men are disadvantaged (logicbomber mentioned several). Also your one-sided focus here just proves the point i made earlier. In fact, this entire take is extremely femicentric!
4. Feminazis may be an extreme group that shares no common value with traditional first and second generation feminism (and likely not with 3rd gen either), but tell me... why aren't the "real" feminism working against them? Wouldn't it be in your interrest to shut them down? Why aren't you? If they're not among you, then fucking show it instead of saying "not us"!
As noble as your goal seem to be, your preaching about peace and love falls too short when faced with the real world. Because if you look into what this genration of feminism has achieved and held as core ideals then it's NOT fighting for equality. It's as femicentric as ever before, and it still sees itself as the indisputably inferior sex in all ranges.
No, Feminism is not about equality, which is a stupid idea anyway. There cannot be equality in the real world, because men and women are purpose-built biological machines that were designed for different roles. The brains, bodies and consequently capabilities are different. Feminism was created by Marxists as one facet of plan to undermine Western Civilisation. It is about hatred of men and everything about them. See: 1. Valerie Solanis called for men to be exterminated. kunsthallezurich.ch/.../scum_manifesto.pdf 2. "All heterosexual sex is rape." - Andrea Dworkin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercourse_(book) 3. "A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle." - Attributed commonly to US Feminist Gloria Steinem, but may have been said first by Australian Feminist Irina Dunn. Then, the latest exercise in madness and cognitive dissonance, the way that Feminism has embraced Islam, which is the most misogynist belief system that the world has known.
To support Feminism, a woman would have to be breathtakingly ignorant, self hating, a misandrist and so driven by hatred (or stupidity) that she believes that the destruction of Western Civilisation and the extermination of the European races is a wonderful idea.
"If you believe in the equal pay for equal work, equal freedoms and expectations, if you believe women shouldn't be harassed because they're wearing a summer dress in the summer... if you believe women deserve the same respect as men. You are a feminist."
This is a disingenuous argument, because sharing a couple of the same beliefs doesn't mean you share the same ideology. Conservatives believe in freedom of speech for all. Classical Liberals believe in freedom of speech for all. Both believe no one has the right to stop another person from doing something as long as you're not hurting or infringing upon someone else and their property. They're still separate ideologies because of where they differ. So no. Merely believing in equality in the way you layed it out does not make you a feminist. Because feminists also believe things such as the gender pay gap myth and they don't believe in freedom of speech (catcalling). Those are pretty major differences that would make you not a feminist by any standard.
I believe in equal rights AND responsibilities. I believe is gender fairness. I believe both genders' needs deserve equal attention and priority. I believe in honest discussion about these issues. I don't believe we should fight for one gender by tearing down and demonizing the other. Therefore I do NOT support modern feminism.
This take is a good example of the biggest problem with feminism, which is that no feminist considers herself to be part of the problem because she can just point her finger at "feminazis" and say "they are the problem, not me", but nothing could be further from the truth. Feminism represents an extremely gynocentric concept of "equality", and anyone who supports it IS THE PROBLEM.
What the gender discussion needs today is some honesty (for a change) and compassion from each gender toward the other. Today feminism is the single biggest barrier preventing us from moving in that direction. We will never be able to begin making significant strides again toward real gender equality and positive gender relations until we recognize feminism for what it is and put it where it belongs... in a deep grave.
Feminism isn't so much about equality as it is about women's rights for equality. The problem being: women are essentially equal to men nowadays (barring Trump doesn't actually fuck that up), and probably have it better than men given that. Either way, we're at a point in time where feminism isn't really needed and instead we need to focus on both sexes together, since it only focuses on woman's rights. The only thing it does for men is diminish gender roles, and that's only because that greatly benefits women a lot more. Feminism does nothing on a whole for men, so it's laughable to refer to it as being about equality. Likewise, Feminism, whether Feminazis or not, practically does nothing for women anymore. You got the diminishing gender roles, then you have rape issues, (Which is overblown. And yes, I understand it's a big issue. Feminism still manages to overblow it, which is impressive.) and well that's really it. Feminism fights for a lot of fake issues, the wage gap being the number one thing that's actually been illegal since the 1960s. Wow. Then you have a bunch of nonissues (a majority of the fake issues) such as manspreading. (Which may fall under your feminazis category but still). If there's more issues women actually have, I don't know about it because Feminism doesn't actually touch it. Modern feminism, here in the U. S., is pretty horrible honestly. It needs to die. I hope Trump doesn't cause a particular need to revive it, he's already heading that way with all the abortion crap.
Nice try, but actions speak louder than words. Also preaching you want equality when you already have it makes you look dumb.
It's 2017, not the 30's or the 60's, if you believe both genders should have the same rights and be treated equally, you're an egalitarian. If you're a feminist, you believe in female superiority. Definitions change, especially when it comes to movements like these, because it's the actions that defines them.
@ChocoLada You're saying men can't be stupid? That's sexist... lol jk, but yeah, men can support feminism too, there's stupid men out there. When you show me a feminist that puts men's rights before manspreading, or the ability of fucking whoever you want without being called "slut", then I may believe that feminists want equality. But when you think manspreading, freeing the nipple, and slutshaming, are more important than the fact men have no shelters despite being more than 40% of domestic violence victims, the fact that 97% of work related deaths are men, the fact that more than 75% of divorces are won by women, the fact that men get harsher sentences despite committing the same crime, the fact that men are treated like rapists and child molesters simply for being men... when you put these things before freeing your nipple, or the ability of sitting more comfortably, I'll start believing feminism is about equality.
Ahem, nooo, men can be stupid, I've met lots of stupid men :P The stuff you talk about is a feminazi agenda, not original feminism. Of course not all the men are "rapists" or "molesters". I care about men's rights, you know that ;)
@ChocoLada You say it's feminazi agenda, but no feminist tries to fix men's issues lol And then they complain when men build their own movement like MRA's hahahahaha
I can't even identify with feminism. In my view feminism is a mix of equality = sameness and over sensitivity. I really dont like that feminists share the same gender as me, i wish they'd just go on about their business and leave the real work to the rest of us.
What rights do men have that women don't have in Western society? -Wage Gap is a myth and many economists have debunked it. -Job opportunities: both sexes have the opportunity to do whatever they want. If there is discrimination, it is against the law. Class action lawsuits would occur. - The salary of certain jobs are based on supply and demand. - Third wave Feminism, today's feminism, is about advancing women's rights and destroying men's rights. - Women privilege includes the expectation of men to pay on first dates. - Women can hit a man, but a man cannot hit her back. - Women can accuse a man of rape, and he will be imprisoned for years without any reprimand on women if it's false. - Women win custody and collect alimony while society shames men who do the same. -Men are expected to sacrifice themselves when it comes to an emergency.
1. Tell me what you'd actually like to fix. I'd be interested to hear where these injustices still persist. Assuming western world.
2. If you are truly about equality you would swiftly realize that leaving behind the loaded term "feminist" would save you a ton of trouble and allow you to focus on the issues you want to address instead of the political movement you'll be caught representing.
I've done plenty of marketing in my life so far and what I would tell you is that: basically, if you want change and not just to promote the term feminism, you'll leave it out. If a term is more important to you than the goals you seek, then you're really not after change to begin with. So at some point along the road you need to decide what is more important to you. Fixing the problems you believe exist or screaming feminism to the masses.
Equality will never be achieved. It is impossible. It is merely an idea but not feasible at all. The world is not a fair place so deal with it. This applies not to gender but to human race in general. There will always be unfair things. Guys are denied job opportunities because employers feel pressured to hire females. Males are hired because employers do not want to pay for workers who may have to leave due to pregnancy. All of these things happen due to fight over gender. Now we get worse applicants due to social pressure. People are different for a reason. We do not live in a world of clones. Even a world of clones will have equality issues.
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