Feminism IS Necessary For Equality Because Feminism IS Equality

[LittleSally]

Because feminism, the actual term and the usage of the movement, was created and still stands as an equalizer of the genders.

It's not meant to make the woman superior and the man inferior.

It's meant to equalize their importance in the world and make us all feel like we're on the same level, of the same HUMAN race, with the same hopes and dreams...and to make us all feel that we can really understand each other, and if we can't, it's meant to help us work it out.

Feminism:"The advocacy of women's rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes."

The thing to remember here is (at least in the last decade or so) that those who take any movement made to better the humankind and deprive it, make the love into hate, are the exceptions that make the rule so much stronger.

As we fight for equality, we also fight against misogyny, misandry, hateful minds and hateful hearts.

Women can hate women.

Men can hate men.

The thing is...they shouldn't.

Based off of gender you find out just a small fragment of who someone is at their core.

Let us not dwell on our physical selves that make us different, let us unite through our mindful selves that unite us as humankind, equals in every way.

[Belgie]

We could line up a MILLION counterexamples which demonstrate that feminism is not about equality.

There will always be those too damn ignorant to accept it. The younger they are, the more I can put down to simple misguided well-meaning ignorance of history and a dogmatic adherence to dictionary definitions. But the older you are, the more likely you're just a nutter.

The facts are this -
1) Feminism is no longer interested in equality. It hasn't been for decades. Not since the lunatics took over the movement.
2) The time for sane feminists to DO something about this was decades ago when the nutters started taking over the movement and making the name "feminist" toxic, and soon to become synonymous with feminazi.
But no one did. The nutters won.
3) Denying that the nutters have won, or pretending they didn't, or pretending they don't exist, makes you look crazy, ignorant, or deluded. At best, people will assume you're ignorant and waste their time and yours pointing out all the hideous things feminists have done and gotten away with.
4) If this was a "only men who hate feminists" rant, then that would not explain why so many educated women refuse to label themselves feminists.

Equal rights? Absolutely! Feminist? Go fuck yourself.
#NoTrueScotsmanFallacy

[ksoma]

You know what the worst part is?
If they backed up their "No True Scotsman" by actually disowning people they felt did not meet their definition, I could accept that and work with them.
The problem is that feminists can't even be honest enough for that.

So, while screaming that their movement is not about man hatred, and that it is only about equality, they also refuse to condemn and disown feminist speakers, authors, and other figures, who do not conform to their definition.

If people like LittleSally wanted to make their argument, but also told the woman with the "male tears" coffee mug "look, that isn't our message, get with the program," I could accept them.
But in their dishonesty, they claim to be about equality and decency, and yet won't even separate themselves from the feminists who write things like the SCUM manifesto, or how all heterosexual intimacy is inherently rape, or the women who write blogs bemoaning the fact they didn't abort their male children when they could.

[jellyroo]

The definition of a word is null once the word is corrupted.
Claiming feminism IS equality in the modern day by referring to its outdated definition is just lazy and naive.

Open your eyes and look around you - there are plenty of aspects and angles within (modern particularly) feminism that has nothing to do with equality, or even goes against the core concept of equality.

There is also the whole debacle about equality of opportunity versus equality of outcome, and how feminism tends to favor outcome over opportunity - which I find inherently discriminatory.

[ADFSDF1996]

I disagree. Plus, feminism isn’t one massive worldwide ideology that is controlled by a hive mind. Feminism in first world countries (known as 3rd and 4 wave feminism) isn’t the same as the feminism found in second and third world countries.

The feminism in first world countries has strayed from it’s original goals and has crossed the boundaries. It’s a misandrist movement. On paper, it might seem like a movement that advocates equality but in practice, it’s a movement that practices gynocentrism (matriarchy) and misandry. It also neglects men’s issues.

The feminism in third world countries is different because it is trying to get equality for women but it still runs the risk of eventually turning into the feminism of first world countries. Fortunately most feminists in this world countries are actually learning from the mistakes of the feminists in first world countries so they may just avoid the radicalization of their movements.

As for 3rd and 4th wave feminism, it seems to be on it’s downfall. People are starting to see it’s flaws, considering that only approximately 18% of people identify as feminists.

[ADFSDF1996]

I support equality/egalitarianism but I don’t consider myself a feminist.

[OlderAndWiser]

I am confident that you are sincere in what you have written and I intend no disrespect to you with this opinion.

What you have written describes a theory of feminism and what many intended when they stared the feminist movement. However, that theory does not exist in a vacuum. I the real world, feminism has been perverted into something that perhaps the original feminists did not intend. Feminism has come to be identified with hostile women who hate men, who want to assert their self-declared superiority over men, who believe that the only reason to have men on this planet is to create the sperm necessary to produce female humans. With years of hostility being the face of feminism, we cannot suddenly disregard that experience and embrace the wonderful theory of feminism, because it is a very dim light in the very real and very dark world of feminism.

[MlleCake]

I like you. Thanks for unblocking me. Don't block me again because I just want to talk about these things with you. You're a good guy and you say a lot of helpful things around here.

I appreciate you've formed some opinions about "today's feminism", and I am not going to say you haven't seen vociferously angry feminists talking about things and sounding, yes, very angry. That is true. You're not hallucinating.

But I think this is leading you, and many other people to some conclusions that are just not very fair.

You and I were witness to a lot more of the 70s and 80s era feminism. We have a little more perspective than a lot of the youngest people on GAG and I think we can share a unique perspective.

Are you in the mood for a deeper discussion on this topic? I won't keep railing on if you're not in the mood.

Otherwise, I am just going to briefly touch on the concept of tone policing.

Here is an article the peruse: http://bondedmagazine.com/2017/06/21/tonepolicing/

[MlleCake]

I should have said please. Sorry.

[OlderAndWiser]

@MlleCake I am certainly receptive to a discussion of this issue. Despite my very traditional tendencies, I am also extremely egalitarian. I treat my partner as my equal in every aspect of our relationship, and I am particularly conscious of respecting her opinions and including her in every major decision.

On New Year's Day, I unblocked everyone except the old European socialist. I did that at the urging of @CheerGirl38139.

MORE

[OlderAndWiser]

I think I understand your position because I have a similar situation. I was a member of a fraternity when I was in college. It was a great experience for me and my lifelong best friend is a fraternity brother. I am now involved in supervising a chapter of my fraternity at the local college. They are a great group of guys, very mature, responsible. Last year, the 45 of them raised $106,000 for philanthropy. The don't engage in hazing. They don't get arrested. They are leaders, not thugs. But when I mention the word "fraternity," people look at me as if I just took the elevator up from Hell. The think they understand fraternities because of what they have read in the newspaper but they know almost nothing about the vast majority of fraternities.

[MlleCake]

Yes, and there are great fraternities who have been great at helping men build lifelong friendships of deep meaning to them, so I really do not knock fraternities. They don't all deserve to be painted with the same brush. My cousin got banned form his Fraternity for hazing and all he had the guy do was eat Gefilte fish which is a common, much loved, totally edible food, but also disliked the way Spam is - and that's IT. That's ALL the hazing they tolerated and I am glad. Some frats have a bad name but there is still good in the greek system if it supports students and build careers - and doesn't create alliances that disadvantage or bully others.

See. I am educated. You are. We can talk about these things. Feminism truly does stand for equality, fairness, and justice, yes focussing on what women need to be brought into a status like men are, but not saying men need to be cut down or that we are superior as human beings as a whole.

[OlderAndWiser]

@MlleCake " Feminism truly does stand for equality, fairness, and justice." But many people use the word "feminism" to denote other things and so the word does not truly stand just for equality, fairness, and justice. Maybe you should find a new label to represent those pure beliefs since your old label has been misappropriated.

[MlleCake]

Ok, but accepting that premise...

Why does feminism have to change its name because idiots smeared shit on it? I'm just here washing the shit off the word. Now you know that the name is misappropriated, but you know what it really means, and you can use it proudly because it's a word that you have figured how to reclaim because some has shown you the "false meanings" of the word are just spin by anti-feminists. The word is ever stronger to me because of how it's been maligned. I am ever stronger because of how my commitment is unbent and unwavering despite all the anti-feminist backlash.

I can still say "This, I believe".

[OlderAndWiser]

@MlleCake Why can I not fly the Confederate flag as a show of pride in my Southern heritage without being labelled a racist? It is a symbol that, to many, does not connote racism or slavery at all, but it has been misappropriated by those who use it for shameful purposes.

[MlleCake]

The men who created that flag had chosen their side on the race question, and the race question was central to that war. It cannot be divorced from what it is. But as far as I am concerned, if you keep it off public property and aren't a jerk about it, I can peacefully coexist the racist display. You can display it. Our Constitution protects that and I support the Constitution. But you can't expect people to all love it and say nothing.

[OlderAndWiser]

@MlleCake The war was about much more than slavery. There were large segments of Southern society that opposed slavery. There were also large segments of Northern society that favored slavery (because it resulted in Northern textile mills getting raw cotton very cheaply and being able to produce textiles that could be sold at very competitive prices in the world market.) The war began in 1861. Lincoln dismissed General Fremont because he freed the slaves in Missouri when he began occupation there in 1862. The Emancipation Proclamation became effective on January 1, 1863 and did not free slaves in any areas that were already under Union control, including Delaware and the District of Columbia. To say that the war was all about slavery is a gross oversimplification.

[MlleCake]

I didn't say it was all about slavery. But it was about slavery, which one side fought to uphold and the other side didn't, and the side of goodness and right won, and so I think it's high time to put away the flags and the values that keep black man separated from white man in status in this world, because it's one of the fundamentally worst things about American history, that we did this to blacks, and other people of color, and women, and disabled people, and religious minorities. It's a flag that represents how we can sometimes have good ideals and bad ones in the same movement, and some thoughts are good and some thoughts are bad. But slavery was such a very bad thing of all the bad things that constantly shoving it in people's faces as the dominant class of white American do is supremely, and deeply obscene.

You can't wipe the taint of blood off that flag.

You can't have the flag only represent the good parts and forget it represented the worst aspects of humans too.

[MlleCake]

But feminism is not an oppressive force applied by a dominant class onto others with lesser amounts of privilege, or if it has ever been such, it's only by mistake.

What I am trying to get you to see is a distinction that is not between to ambiguously similar things, a word or a flag that represents a nebulous concept, yes... those things are similar but still.

Feminism has never waged a war with one faction warring the other in armed uprisings so far. Feminism is a velvet revolution for most of us. So in that one significant way the concept "confederate flag reverence" and the concept "still using the word feminism" are already very different beasts. One movement shed innocent blood, slaughtered innocents to uphold an oppressive tradition. The other movement is mostly a war of words with political lobbying, law changing, consciousness raising, bake sales, fundraisers and peaceful marches where we pick up all our trash and just yell angry stuff.

Not really a comparison at all.

[MlleCake]

We have GOT to start saying that what we do to uphold righteous causes is NOT at the same level of value as the things we do to uphold unjust causes.

So racism, slavery, and standing for them or honoring them is still always going to be the wrong choice, even if it's just a small flag you only see yourself.

But anti-racism, anti-sexism, and being pro-fairness, justice and decency will always be the right choice.

Today, you and I probably both hold opinions about things that will someday lead us to come out supporting the WRONG side of some issue. Maybe it's a dumb thing you and I can't even conceive of because it involves moral questions over technology that will be invented in ten years and you and I won't even be the target audience for it.

You'll just have your values to guide you and I will have mine, and hopefully, we can be taught to think differently and challenge our assumptions yet one more time as we go around this Earth.

[OlderAndWiser]

@MlleCake You are saying that I should put away my symbol of Southern pride because others have decided what it means and I cannot fight that result. "You can't wipe the taint of blood off that flag."

Feminism is so besmirched with hostility and self-righteous outrage that you cannot wipe the taint of venom and loathing from that label.

Don't you see the inconsistency. You are saying that you know that your cause, at its true core, is good and just and, therefore, you can be proud of the label. And you don't care how the media and pop culture has twisted its image.

However, I cannot be proud of my symbol which, for me, does not represent slavery but it represents pride and independence. I cannot be proud because of others have successfully waged war on my symbol and changed its meaning and I am being insensitive by not recognizing that.

There is an inconsistency in your position and you should rise above your sense of self-righteousness and see it for what it is.

[MlleCake]

I know you see it as inconsistency. Moral inconsitency. And what I see it as, is a question of deep moral ambiguity at the heart of who people are. And we have to say racism and feminsm are not morally equivalent things. One is deplorable and one isn't. One maybe made sense in ancient times when resources were scarce and man's mind was not as enlightened, so we forgive but we must put it behind us because it no longer serves our species. And one is the future, the rocky, uncertain but inevitable future, that as we advance as a species we need each other less and less to survive if we spread our resources fairly, but humans still have to have ways to cling together in cohorts peacefully because we are primates, and social, and we love each other, and we must make babies.

Where do you say that the bad thing is now enough bad that we just have to stop shoving it in people's faces and wounding them with it over some nebulous concept of Southern Pride?

[MlleCake]

And when do you say the good thing is now good enough that we do it and we advance it even if we make mistakes and there's collateral damage, because the new idea is going to be the one that allows our evolving, thinking species to take the next steps we must take in a positive way?

[OlderAndWiser]

@MlleCake "nebulous concept of Southern Pride?" Trivialize the concept to strengthen your point, because the concept is not important to you.

I was not comparing racism to feminism. I was comparing true Southern pride to true feminism. Or you could compare "Southern pride" as a code word for racism, to "feminism" as a code word for venomous man hating.

[MlleCake]

I am not actually trying to trivialize it, just call it what it is, which is admittedly a somewhat undefined concept, whereas slavery is an actual concrete thing that happened.

And I thoroughly understand the point you're trying to make. I think I understand you entirely. I'm trying to let you look at it from a different angle and see what you think of it. Maybe not explaining it well. I'll come back to it later.

[madhatters4]

true feminism has benefited men, women and society. sadly too many focus on the noisy minority of pseudo feminist to argue that feminism is evil.

[Brewmaster531]

I refer you to my MyTake on feminism to get.. well my take on this topic. Let me be very clear that, if you do read it, I am not against the philosophy of feminism. My complaints are basically about how on some things the pendulum has swung way too far in the other direction and no one is discussing this. My issue is NOT that this has occurred. My issue is the way we cover these issues. A man cheats on his wife, so his wife drugs him and chops off his penis and puts it through the garbage disposal. The woman on the talk show, a group of proud feminists, are laughing and laughing. Imagine if you flip that situation except the guy pokes a breast with a sharp object? Or you know what, it doesn't even have to be physical like that. If he just sets her stuff on fire in the yard, these women go "this is emotional abuse, this is unfair. No one deserves this". Again, my issue isn't that these issues happen to men. It's that the way we respond to things that happen to men by women versus things that happen to women by men is out of balance. Like I said, refer to my MyTake to fully understand this. I don't disagree with your article. I just don't identify as a feminist. I don't have an issue with those who do, I don't disagree with them, I say all the power to them, there are just little yet fundamental things that conflict with my thought process that does not allow me to identify as a feminist.
My reason for not identifying is that, we say feminism is for the equality of the genders, so why do we call it feminism? The usual response is that because women are being treated unfairly and in order to have equality, we need to fight for the rights of women so it balances out. The problem with that is that we are paying no attention to men who are getting treated unfairly because of the pendulum swinging too far in the other direction.
By the way, I don't like that "feminism is equality so we need it" angle. That's the thing that implies that anyone who is for equality of the genders is a feminist. Maybe that's the case in the eyes of feminists, but not everyone is what you say they are because you made up a definition for a word. Anyone who is not religious is some form of an infidel according to many religions, yet you would probably not call yourself or your fellow humans who aren't religious infidels. Depending on the context and the people talking, you are as they define.

[sawno]

Feminism per definition is not equality because its a marxist style women specific interest group advocating for women rights above all else. What they claim and what they do is vastly different and modern feminism brings nothing but segregation and inequality by artificially harming men AND successful women.

Take a look at a recent Feminist victory for example, grid girls are now out of there jobs and where removed from the freedom of being payed for what they want because this interest group could not stand them being appreciated for who they are by the other gender. That action alone is harming people more then the grid girls where ever harmed or ever harmed anyone else.

So yes, like any marxist style movement they are indeed fighting for equality by bringing everyone else down to there level.

And i wish it was different, Feminism could have a much better purpose SOLVING women issues. Think about organizing events that build Women up where they lack, think about raising awareness for issues otherwise overlooked. That is where feminism finds its use, but the systemic oppression they stand for needs to end and i wish someone would take actions about these ridiculous professors that are indoctrinating this nonsense into innocent students.

Because what we need to start doing is not segregation, this shouldn't be the women vs the men and there should not be an equality group named after one specific demographic. We should all strive to improve harmony in society not by defining everyone into interest groups like the marxist movements do but by seeing everyone as a whole and then we can continue creating a fair playing field we all find pleasant.

Because equality is by design unachievable without preserving quality as if you where to make everything equal nothing would hold value. Instead you need a unified fair ruleset where everyone has the same opportunities given they meet the unified standard. And the only thing you need to do to achieve that is by limiting this ruleset to what is required. For example if someone searches a female blond model with certain features, it is totally acceptable to do that because everyone who fits into the description can compete for that role without including nonsensical aspects such as political opinion. That is not unfair or unequal, that is a natural thing in pursuit of quality that i don't think would be considered controversial or strange.

[ksoma]

I will buy into the idea that feminism is about equality exclusively, when a branch of feminism comes out that limits itself exclusively to:
equal legal and social treatment for people.

and that openly condemns:
intersectionality
diversity quotas
violent/misandrist feminists authors and groups
any and all feminist groups who take ideological stands against men's groups (after all, the idea that men's issues are dealt with by feminism is not only untrue, it is also something men did not ask you to do on our behalf. If you believe men should embrace the concept of feminism as we see women with a need to elevate themselves and address issues exclusive to them, you DAMNED WELL have an obligation to grant men the space and power to deal with issues facing us. Any interpretation of men dealing with men's issues as a "threat" is a valid indication that you view men as a threat).

If you can not limit the feminism you support to the former, than you have proven you lie about feminism, because your goals lie outside mere equality. If you can not condemn the latter, you prove you lie about feminism, because you have proven you support people whose goals lie outside mere equality.

[somewheresomeway]

MHO but she'll give that to some white knight on here you watch...

[ksoma]

I do find it remarkable that, in a post about how feminism is supposedly about nothing but equality and anyone who thinks it is about anything else is wrong, that my reply of "openly disown the aspects about modern feminism that are about everything other than equality, and I will believe you," gets the downvotes it does.

By voting me down, especially if any of the three female downvotes comes from LittleSally herself, the entire argument the MyTake makes is being undercut. Because my explicit argument was "I support moral, legal, and social equality for women, but not the baggage modern feminism attaches to that."
LittleSally attempts to say that, in her view, only the equality aspect of feminism matters. If that were the case, nothing I said can be disagreed with. No one who agrees with her should disagree with what I wrote. The fact that they do shows, even if they are not consciously dishonest, that they embrace the very aspects of feminism they claim don't exist.

[LogicBomber]

The definition of feminism doesn't mean anything when the actions of feminism consistently prove otherwise.

The core of feminism has always been misandry. The loudest most famous voices have always been man-haters. Solanas, Greer, Dworkin, Steinem, etc.
The most powerful feminist groups have stifled "equality" for men. NOW shut down equal access to children twice and consistently pushes to stop men from equal custody of their children.
Feminist groups violently and aggressively shut down talks about men's issues. Ex: UofT talks about the issue of boys in school.

Women in the west are the most privileged group of humans to ever exist in human existence, yet constantly act like they are "oppressed" or victims using 3rd world women as their scapegoat.
https://i.imgur.com/aauGjhV.jpg?1

But like you posted... "To those accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression"

If feminist truly cared about equality, they would stop playing victim and start trying to fix the many real issues men have that women don't.

https://i.imgur.com/Pyvxt11.jpg

[somewheresomeway]

We need hundreds of thousands of posters of those memes and have they all scattered across every college, HS, acting studio, mass media station and liberal corporate office in the world.

[DevikaButts95]

Feminism is not necessarily necessary for equality. Feminism is one means to an end, the end of course being equality. It is not the only means to that end.
And feminism isn't equality itself. You defined it yourself: "The advocacy of women's rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes." It's a path to equality sure but it specifically focuses on just women. That's not an equal way to go about things and eventually that'll bring you past the point of equality and go right back into inequality.

[CubsterShura]

Why you write this only to get attacked... :') girls from third world countries like me who have seen more than enough shit in life are the ones most ignored by Western feminists who are literally being the most influential as well :')

[Amy247]

Totally agree with you. Many feminists in the West will actually *defend* the gross mistreatment of women in other cultures on the grounds of multiculturalism. It's BACKWARDS.

[CubsterShura]

@Amy247 yeah especially their attitude towards Muslim women.

And we seldom talk about trafficking. :')

[FatherJack]

Agreed , I have served in the Middle East and seen SHOCKING treatment of women by some men in Saudi Arabia ... we wanted to stomp one bastard mans ( beating his wife around the head with a stick whilst walking with her ) guts out. These feminists are hypocrites !!

[CubsterShura]

@FatherJack a guy shared this story with me. His friend once saw a man publicly beating a woman. He went to save her but the woman slapped him back saying that her husband can do whatever he wants with her. How deeply is misogyny existing among women themselves, it hurts.

[MlleCake]

@Amy247

[Amy247]

@MlleCake what?

[MlleCake]

@Amy247 Actually, I lost my train of thought but accidentally clicked submit.

[Amy247]

@MlleCake oh lol

[cavmanier]

What I see is feminists in the west are closely related to the progressives (far left Democrats), and there's a common attitude type doctrine they tend to share where they are cautious to raise an issue with someone that is seen as a victim. These victim groups are treated differently or given immunity from social criticism because of their perceived hardship in society. Morally progressives and most feminists end up at a sort of cognitive dissonance where they want to support women but they also don't want to criticize one of the protected victim groups (Muslims is one) so they are morally conflicted and unsure which belief is more important. They end up rationalizing ways to not think about the topic because these kinds of ethical dilemmas are especially painful for most.

[MlleCake]

@cavmanier You are just so wrong about us. And about the issues.

[cavmanier]

@MlleCake Where do you live? I live near San Francisco, know as the mecca of liberal progressiveness. I see it all around me.

Care to explain how I am wrong?

[MlleCake]

@cavmanier Because you think that believing Muslims can peacefully coexist with the rest of us and we don't have to fear all of them or force to stop being Muslim is the same as sanctioning spectacular human rights abuses against women. The opression of women so closely associated with Islam is actually cultural norms that predate Islam and still exist ins ALL the Abrahamic religions. And where I live right now is Los Angeles, United States where I can both see the suffering of women in purdah and want to do, and actually do. things to help them achieve liberation in the way that those women find appropriate for them, because I can't tell THEM what they need, only facilitate. Meanwhile, thethretas to MY liberation in the US have ZERO to do with Islam and I am going to fight those things locally that effect me locally.

I am an intersectional feminist. I am white, and Western, so some of our Feminism has blazed a trail, but I cannot tell a woman like @CusterShura what she needs.

[MlleCake]

So yes, some of our white. Western, heteronormative feminism has been myopic in history - we think OUR particular problems are everyone's problems, and that has meant that other women with problems have not had a voice. And we are still not always perfect. But it's not our desire to leave other women out in the dust.

I am open, like many white, western feminists are, to hearing what @CubsterShura has to say about HER life, and HER experiences with oppression. While I continue to speak my truths about MY experiences with oppression. And she and I can just talk things through and help each other, or at least be more aware of each other.

The problem with anti-feminists is you think the issues women face the world over are simple, with black and white solutions. And that if one feminist disagrees with another that all of feminism must, therefore, be moot. You think that we can't work on many issues at once. You think if I work on an issue local to me I am ignoring others.

[MlleCake]

@CubsterShura, please always talk to me about problems women in Bangladesh face. I'm not deaf to them. I'll help where you think I can.

[CubsterShura]

I don't have any knowledge on international organizations that can help.

[MlleCake]

Don't worry about that part of the equasion. Just keep telling me, and the world, what women experience as oppression where you are. And I'll tell you what we experience. And the ways we can help each other we will, if only by just understanding each other more.

Sexists and the media want you to believe that your problems don't matter and that other feminists don't care about what is happening in Bangladesh to women. And they show you US doing our white western feminism, not because it's the only feminism there is. It's because the media thinks poople only want news about white western people, and celbrities. So, we have celbrities here. Doesn't mean our celebrities can't help Bangladesh women too. But our celebrities and people in the media are just as deaf as everyone else is to the plight of people in Third World countries. But I'm a feminst, and white, and Western, and I care, and you can tell me.

I am also learning from you now. Always learning.

[CubsterShura]

@MlleCake the biggest issue so far is child marriage. Bangladesh has the second-highest rate of child marriage in the world. More than 50% of girls get married before 18.

[MlleCake]

Did you know that Western Feminists, feminists around the world actually, have been leading the charge to end child marriage worldwide?

This organization is supported by Western Feminists: www.girlsnotbrides.org/.../

Human Rights Watch, an international organization, including many western feminists, has targeted campaigns on ending child marriages and human trafficking: https://www.hrw.org/history

[CubsterShura]

@MlleCake that's great!

[cavmanier]

@MlleCake
I’ll be clear here. I don’t think Islam is bad or people from Muslim regions or brown people or any individual genetic modifier is bad. It seems like I kinda have to proclaim that right now BECAUSE of how common people in the west often associate any kind of criticism against non white males as some kind of bigotry that can’t be talked about sort of like Voldemort's name from Harry Potter.

I’m not sure where you got this from based on what I said
“Because you think that believing Muslims can peacefully coexist with the rest of us and we don't have to fear all of them or force to stop being Muslim is the same as sanctioning spectacular human rights abuses against women”

You clearly read into something I didn't say.

[cavmanier]

I wasn’t trying to say the oppression has anything to do with Islam either. Islam was just an easy way to describe regions where people lie. That wasn’t my point though. I was saying since many feminists groups are closely associated and socially in tune with the progressive left, where inclination of criticism is altered by race, sex, religion or whatever other identifier is seen as a handicap. In a similar way, I see that diverge or have a pervasive effect in the direction of altering activism.

[cavmanier]

Where people live*

[cavmanier]

I don’t think all feminist groups are this way though. The 120 db people in Europe are an example of feminists raising an issue about sexual assault against women by immigrants, and if you look at the low to no exposure of progressive media coverage of this issue (as well as silence from politically affected metoo) along with the claims of these girls being alt-right racist backlash by much of the public, it shows what I’m trying to explain. If these immigrants were white males, from some white country the liberal progressive media would be all over the story about how brave these girls are (instead of being nazis). Basically, they are judging the narrative of the situation at least partly by their opinion on the groups identity.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pt4RBzXVi6Q

[cavmanier]

On an individual feminist level, I bet you are right with many feminists wanting to help women in general. I pretty much implied that here
“Morally progressives and most feminists end up at a sort of cognitive dissonance where they want to support women but”

I was saying since many feminists groups are associated with the progressive left where criticism is altered by race, sex, religion or whatever other identifier is seen as a handicap, I see the direction of activism also being altered. That effect is probably more seen in group settings though where there's a mitigation (by political correctness) that constricts possible dialog of criticism against those individual feminist beliefs questioning people perceived on the low order of societal privilege.

[Fractacular]

Words change.

People change.

Movements change.

Feminism may have originally been about equality between the sexes, but it has evolved into something much, much uglier.

Over 90% of on-the-job injuries and fatalities in America are suffered by men. Are feminists working to lower this number, in the name of equality?

Over 90% of the Human Resources employees in American companies are women. Are feminists working to lower this number, in the name of equality?

The soldiers buried in Arlington National Cemetery are overwhelmingly male. Do feminists want to change this, in the name of equality?

[Guanfei]

Not anymore. It was, but it changed. Feminism today is supremacist, anti-men and totalitarian movement, based on the idea that men are fundamentally evil and inferior, and they have to be subdued.
The feminism you're talking about died when feminists became more extremists and misogynists, or just let the extremist ones talk.
You'll say that the loud ones are the minority? Maybe. But they're the ones you hear. And therefore those who change things, who are listened by the new generation, the politicians, and the medias.
Take a good look, a real look at modern feminism. And tell me it's about equality.

[sean1234]

So what are you trying to say again? This tells me nothing. Men and woman are not quite equal. The average normal woman can't lift heavy weights like a man no more than a man can give birth.

Oh and I hate the word humankind. It MANkind. Eve was made from Adams rib after all.

[taleswapper]

The fallacy of the Big Lie. As long as men make up four times as many violent crime victims, 3.5 times as many of the suicides, and almost 19 times the workplace accidents, Feminists can't claim to be for equality There are thousands of pages in hundreds of laws to protect women's interests specifically; but almost none to protect men's. And if anyone every advocates for something a bit more balanced, feminists rise up in a screaming horde and denounce it. You want to lay claim to egalitarianism? Go both ways.

[LegateLanius]

If it's for gender equality why call it "feminism" Before I get started I just want to say I agree with most ideologies behind feminism and think it's great a group of people are standing up for more equal rights in society. However I don't understand why it is only directed at only one sex, if it's for equal rights for both sexes why use this label? Men also suffer from inequality in society, and I believe the label "feminism" itself has caused some women to take it the wrong way and see it as a fight against men and see them as all power dominant evil beings, therefore is causing more equality problems than good. I believe the solution would be to be rid of the feminism label and go for something a little more "equal".
Feminism is needed in third world countries where they don't have equal rights.

[FatherJack]

Original Women's Liberation WAS about equality , feminism has been progressively hijacked , all by design , and the feminist leadership for at least the last 4 decades , has been spewing venom at human males , esp those of European extraction , as per their Cultural Marxist dogma and indoctrination.. total silence from the rank and file feminists. As a FT working single dad , I have encountered a LOT of sexism , mainly from women that automatically assume male = pedo / sex predator and / or unfit parent , however I am aware they have often been heavily conditioned by the " media " and other misandrist propaganda. Right... I'm off to check my " privilege " !!

[Anpu23]

No, feminism is at it's core a supremacist movement. Ever since the declaration of sentiments feminism has been about recognizing privileges that men enjoy that women do not. Without any look at the cost or responsibility for those privileges. Second the core belief, or what I would call the defining belief of feminism is the belief in Patriarchy Theory as put forth by such works as "The Second Sex" the belief that men have used an unfair position to advance their own sex over that of women. As this theory is both false and misleading (it's using Marxist class theory applied to sex) feminism fails as a political philosophy. Feminism is not about equality, it's about equal rights and privileges without equal risk and responsibilities. This has been demonstrated time and again by key feminist lobbying groups.

[AlphaGhost]

Feminism is not about equality and never was in the past. If it was such a good thing the world could have tried their best to accept it.
West got 700M population and the whole world don't give a damn shit about it cuz of its idiotic ideology.
How can you call "forcing man to feminine" equality?

World need woman rights but those woman should present their own chart and rules, rather than accept this shit !
I think the Asia should introduce their own movement for woman rights and decide for themselves cuz to much damage is already done in its name.

[Svengodofman]

I'm pretty apolitical, I just go about my own business, and respect everyone I meet regardless of their genitalia. But what does piss me off is the growing radical ends of feminism, and "Meninism" (if that's a word) where it's basically misogynists, and misandrists complaining that they hate the other gender. It's bad for both women's, and men's rights advocates because they get associated with the nutjobs. The fact that mankind can argue over what rights we deserve based on sex/gender really just proves we're probably gonna wipe ourselves out in a nuclear war lol.

Whatever happened to just treating everyone else as you'd like to be treated, and being a calm, understanding human being?

[Jackahl]

Feminism in it's heyday was warranted. I will give you that. The problem now is the nu-feminists aka 3rd wave are so worried about anyone stating an opinion they dont like that they become violent towards anyone that isn't as far left as them. Even with that guys who are "male feminist" are seen as "allies" and are seen as inferior. It's fucking crazy what I see on college campuses. If you can point out a right a man has that a women doesn't have with proof cool we can fight for that, but screaming about how bad men are and how we are all shit because your ex was a dick... no go away.

[SirRexington]

In the 21st century it is not needed in Western Civilization. The feminism that does exist and the speakers for feminism are not egalitarian. They show only signs of oppression and unwanted beliefs that hurt men as well as women.

Equality for all, feminism is no longer about equality. This isn't an opinion, this is an observation from listening to feminists and the beliefs they push.