How do you feel about the CANZUK (Canada Australia New Zealand United Kingdom) concept?

[JimRSmith]

The poll of over 13,600 people was conducted across Canada, Australia, New Zealand and the United Kingdom from January 1st to March 31st 2018, and reveals continued support in each of the four countries, and individual regions, for reciprocal free movement of citizens.

CANZUK is an idea involving freedom of movement between the above four countries, not for convicted criminals or dole bludgers, but for entrepreneurs, professionals, retirees, students etc. They would be able to live and work in each other's countries, without the requirement to apply for a visa, in effect restoring the rights lost when the UK joined the EU.

There would not be a common government, a common currency or common taxation. What is proposed relates to the rights of citizens only. They might, for example, benefit from the local tuition fees, rather than those charged to third party nationals, and would be entitled to healthcare, if resident in another of the involved countries. Qualifications issued by one country would be recognised as equivalent in the others, without the need to retake basic level professional licences etc.

Would you be in support of this or not?

I'm from a CANZUK country and I support this

I'm from a CANZUK country and I oppose this

I'm not from a CANZUK country - show me the results

[nightdrot]

God is in the adjectives and the devil is in the details.

Insofar as this essentially restores the old relationship that existed between the UK and its former Dominion and later Commonwealth partners, there is nothing inherently wrong with this concept. Particularly throwing in the broadly common cultural, linguistic, historical and to some extent constitutional and political heritage these states share.

However, some care ought be taken. The UK is under some strain in terms of the rise of Scottish, and to a lesser degree Welsh and as always Catholic Irish nationalisms. These nationalisms are themselves, in part, the result of a rising populist tide - in the world and not just the UK - and a weakening sense of national cohesion born, in their turn, as a reaction to the transnationalism of a global free market and, more specifically, the European Union.

While the CANZUK concept may lack the "bells and whistles" of a common currency and diminished sovereignty and all the rest that came with the EU, if it comes to be seen as suggesting that national identity is thin and hence optional - easily substituted by broader identities - it could intensify the very cultural and political forces that Brexit was meant, in part, to quell. In that event, the UK would get through the back door that which is sought to block through the front.

The Commonwealth has been an asset to the UK by harkening, particularly through the person of HM the Queen who is its head, by harkening to a common history while being institutionally weak. This CANZUK concept, though there does not appear to be many details, would seem to be a much stronger structure.

Plus, times have changed. The economies of Canada, Australia and New Zealand have changed from what they once were and they represent, i n some ways, competition that they were not before. This means that there will be economic pressures on certain income groups and areas of the UK that immigration and such from CANZUK countries that did not exist prior to Britain joining the EU. Consequently, what worked before may create unintended consequences now.

Long story short, in principle this would seem to be a very benign and potentially beneficial restoration of Britain's historic role and diplomatic and political arrangements. Britain is still a significant global power but it - its very structure - is under stress in ways that it was not before. In that Britain should not make the mistake of absentmindedly and thereby simplistically seeking to restore an ephemeral status quo ante.

As a famous Briton - John Maynard Keynes - once said, "When I see that the facts have changed, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?" As Britain rightly moves to restore its sovereignty, it should not assume that nothing changed in the rest of the world while the UK was in the European Union.

[Historylover18]

I'm Canadian and it seems most of us are all for it since we're already in close ties with the British, Australians and New Zealanders.

[Wonderer89]

All for it! We already have reciprocal medical care across the UK and NZ so would be open to not needing Visas... tuition I’m iffy about though. We already have an issue with Australians racking up hecs debt (our government education loan system, you don’t have to start paying it back until you’re earning an ok salary) then moving overseas so they avoid paying it

[shimmeryns]

You guys share the same Queen and I did google if you guys actually have this concept after the coins-mixed up thing lol!

[dantetheexplorer]

I am only going to be speaking on the trade side of CANZUK, as this is the side of CANZUK that I'm more familiar with.

Disclaimer: the below is my personal opinion, based on my understanding, which may or may not be accurate.

I am a lot more familiar with the Australian and Kiwi side of things. Australia and NZ have had highly integrated economies and free movement agreements between both countries for many decades now.

New Zealand was among the first western countries to sign a trade deal with China.
China is now Australia's largest trading partner - more so than the US. The US only comes third - Japan takes the position of second largest trading partner.

Both Australia and New Zealand have entered into early stages of free trade talks with the EU - in 2018, I believe.

Canada is interesting. Canada - and Australia and New Zealand - are among the 11 nations who have entered the CPTPP Agreement (Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership) - which is the new, phoenix-form of the TPP (Trans-Pacific Partnership) that Donald Trump pulled the US out of. Other nations in the CPTPP include Japan, Malaysia, Vietnam, Brunei, Mexico, Peru, and Chile.

Canada has also recently signed an expanded access agreement with the European Union.
All the Pacific Commonwealth countries are moving rapidly to integrate themselves with Asian economies.

The current British government HAS spoken about entering into expanded trading agreements with its former colonies and Asian trading blocs, including the CPTPP. However, no one is going to be entering into trade talks with the UK until the UK and EU have finished working out their new trading arrangements post-Brexit. This will be a very, very slow process - just see how long it took Brexit to play out.

When Britain entered the EU, there was disruption to its former colonies' economies. In essence, the UK turned its back on the Commonwealth as a trading bloc. Of course, this was a while back, so you won't find any residual enmity in Canberra, Wellington, and Ottawa.

However, one should consider that all three: Canada, Australia, and New Zealand, have lodged formal objections with the World Trade Organization (WTO) over the UK's post-Brexit schedule (trade rules and trade regulations which the UK would be trading under until new agreements are signed), which amounts to blocking the UK from entering the WTO as a stand-alone state.

I also think Australia and New Zealand will bust out a couple of trade moves to protect themselves once Brexit is done and dusted. (Exactly what - well, I'm no economist!)

I'm not saying that any of this makes CANZUK unlikely to come to fruition.
All of the above however, will mean that coming to an agreement on CANZUK, one that can be agreed on by all parties, will be a protracted process and may take 3-4 years to hash out, maybe longer.

However, the idea of CANZUK is a good one, and I hope it becomes reality.

[AllThatSweetJazz]

Depends on respective immigration policies.

The issue is that when we open our borders to certain countries, now I as an Australian have to worry about who the member states let into their country.

I don't think I would support *complete* free movement. If you've been a citizen for say 10+ years then I think that could make you eligible. I don't want randos who have come in from non-member states into one of these countries and then be able to go wherever they want once they get through one door.

When refugees turn up on the northern shores, we can here their case for asylum and if we grant it then we will take care of them until they're able to safely return home. But these people are not Australian citizens and it would be absolutely inappropriate for us to allow them to jump on a plane to the UK under this "free movement" policy so they can go be health tourists in the UK and drain the NHS which they haven't paid into at all.

As for long time citizens becoming health tourists, I think that's something of a negative we have to accept that comes with the benefits, but I believe all of the member states have a public option for healthcare. So brits can come here and for healthcare in cases where it's better for them and I can go to the UK for healthcare if it's better for me. That seems reasonable, even beneficial in some cases.

[JimRSmith]

All very good points.

This would presumably be applicable ONLY to citizens and not to residents, and I agree it's in everybody's interests to keep a close eye on who comes in.

The Germans allowing all of the economic migrants in was a factor in the Brexit vote - after 4 years legal residence in one EU state, they then automatically gain the right to move to wherever they want in the EU. We weren't having that. No sane country outsources its immigration policy like that...

[AllThatSweetJazz]

Did they even have to wait the 4 years though? Wasn't Merkel essentially demanding that other countries take her "refugees" that she imported by the millions?

[JimRSmith]

Yes, she did. Fortunately a number of them are led by people who actually respond to public opinion, and they told her to sod off.

[Sensmind]

On an ideal level these agreements work great ie :- Students or qualified workers moving around. The problems begin when you look at the infrasructure of each country. Is the education system, healthcare system way better in any of the countries or how do they treat penisioners. Freedom of movement is a good short term ideal but creates issues when a large number of people make what they perceive as best move for themselves. What you want is for young qualified immigration who can contribute in tax so by the time they have families or are sick or get old have contributed something to the coffers of the state.
I am somewhere in the middle in immigration not for/against open or closed doors but there has to be some fair controls. My political beliefs would be realistic socialist as in do what you can but only to the level you can afford.

[JimRSmith]

As these countries are all at a *reasonably* similar level of development as each other, I don't think that a serious population shift would occur due to perceived better benefits in one, versus the others.

I agree with your concern about this, but I don't think it would exist as an issue to the same extent as it presently does within the EU, for example.

[monkeynutts]

We have to be very careful, Britian is in a very precarious position, economically, socially, much needs to be done before such a long term investment that would chance the demographic, and structure of our societies. Unfortunately many of the former colonies are not necessarily made up of what I classify as very trustworthy people, it will be difficult for us to make this work and not cause civil strife in Australia and Canada. besides apprehension, not really liking change, the idea is very interesting. See what happens.

[ElectricErger]

The Commonwealth countries have always had a similar culture and ideology, so it's not a fat jump. In fact, I would go so far as to say it is ideal as it would be a very EU like structure which gave lots more power to the member States than each could get on their own. Vital when the top economies are being power hungry (US, China, Russia)

[AlexanderBrunnrgaard]

Why not, why not expand the benefits of the Commonwealth. It'd not only foster good relations between these nations, it would elevate the importance of the Royal House, which already enjoys great acclaim in each country for their support in development, education and finance.

[MrHopper]

I see no problems really, we all have the same Queen already and politically get on fine... They mostly settled by the UK any way with the exception of Canada. But... I can see resistance from the native population and rightly so, they lost their countries once already...

If criminals are not allowed free travel I guess that means Australia is fucked 😉 #pommebanter

[bolverk]

I'd support it as we are very much alike and always worked well together and talked out any problems we've had between us even though I'm not too enamoured with the current political leadership of Canada and New Zealand just as there's people in both of them who are not to keen on what's going on in the UK at the moment.

[A-man-22]

Yes I'm English, keep the government's separate but allow more open trade/travel.

Many people in Canada, Australia and New Zealand have families connected to Britain.

These countries wanted to be separate from Britain and that's fine, neither government should force the other to do something they don't want to.

Yet friendly agreements and deals are helpful to all.

[Walrus_au]

Absolutely. And some spread the gammut. I'm an Aussie, the better half is Canuk, and my extended family came from the UK. that plan would make life much easier in many ways.

[A-man-22]

Thanks for agreeing

People think the British hate foreigners due to recent politics.

Truth is, we don't we just want control over our intake of foreigners.

As an Australian, I hope you can relate as I have heard border control in Australia is very strong, though that's mainly for protecting the ecosystem.

[wittymilf]

The only down fall would be the influx of Australians 🙄😌. Nz currently has this agreement with schwartzbard. Random I know

[JimRSmith]

NZ and Australia already have it between them. This would pretty much be a case of Canada and the UK joining what you already have.

[wittymilf]

NZ citizens in Australia definitely don’t get the same entitlements to welfare or support though.

[JimRSmith]

No, not any more, although I think they once did.

This would be the same, you could move, provided you could support yourself or had a job, but until you'd paid into the local tax system, you wouldn't be entitled to the unemployment benefits etc. You couldn't just rock up, and sign on. Otherwise whichever country's benefit system was the most generous would attract all the deadlegs from all four countries.

[Poppykate]

I know! 🙄 Australians should be contained!

[monkeynutts]

You don't deserve any entitlements, and the way most of you behave the Anzac treaty should be disbanded. New Zealanders are ruining a centuries worth of hardwork and disrespecting the sacrifices of our mutual war veterans.

[wittymilf]

Oh 🤔 who knew..

[WolfsRoze]

I like all these countries except the UK. However I feel this should be their decision... Sounds like the UK is at it again... Just think how much power the queen has and all the land she "owns"... having a foothold in every country a Christian church sits?

[JimRSmith]

I don't think you understand this properly, with all due respect.

[WolfsRoze]

I probably dont, I try to stay out of politics.

[WolfsRoze]

@JimRSmith thank you for being respectful

[Xoirwinkan]

I like the idea of the commonwealth. If you watch British TV comedy, you get Ozzies and Kiwis once in a while, like its natural. They fit well together, with still enough differences to make fun of each other, in a good way.

[DiegoO]

No idea. It sounds really good, and it will be really good if it's managed the right way. Who knows, it may also end as a disaster. Great ideas, and political agendas, always come with great risk.

[MackToday]

Looks like a globalist scheme to scatter genocide migrants around. If they can't get them into one country they get them in through another. Best to sever all such ties and keep nations totally separate.

[esotericstory]

I agree. Today in Europe, if a migrant can enter the Schengen zone in one country they can enter all its countries. Makes no sense. It enables human trafficking.

[CaptainSmartass]

I support it. It's a good idea. Sorta like a Commonwealth version of the EU, but without all the bad shit.

Simples...

[TheKack]

This is coming from an American, so I don't really care and have no stake in this, but don't each of these countries have their own problems to attend to without inviting additional people to create more while trying to rebuild a mini British empire?

[JimRSmith]

One of the problems Canada, NZ and Australia each have is underpopulation...

[Levin]

Too sensible and decent an idea to actually be implemented. But I think all three of those countries would probably rather not have British citizens flood their shores!

[Waffles731]

Honesty you could even open it up to rhe whole commonwealth realn.
You all share q head of state

[Historylover18]

Actually most Commonwealth members are Republics while the Commonwealth Realms have the Queen. She's just head of the Commonwealth organization.

I agree the list should be expanded a bit though

[Walrus_au]

So, I am from 1 and living in another. That idea would benefit myself and my family. So I like it!

[DeeDeeDeVour]

I'm wondering which of these nations & citizens stands to gain the most.

[JimRSmith]

New Zealand, I'd expect. Smaller populations tend to provide fewer opportunities, as a rule. The flip side of that is that they may experience brain drain. But as all of the countries in question are at a comparable level of development, I'd anticipate this being much less of an issue than has been the case with the EU, for example, where qualified young people from southern countries have flooded en masse into northern countries, where there are greater opportunities?

[CT_CD]

I'm not from a CANZUK country - show me the results

[Smegskull]

I like the idea however I am under no illusion that it would work. Canada is half French and Australia/New Zealand is half native, both of which are demographics which can't stand the British.

[JimRSmith]

Canada is only a quarter French, and neither New Zealand nor Australia is 'half native'.

So what if they were, either?

[Walrus_au]

Yeah, I'm with Jim here. There is nothing about being french or first nations that stops someone going to a different country. And it's not like people are being forced to move, just having the options provided.

[Guanfei]

As long as they put the Canada, it's like accepting the US. Canada is just an economical dummy for the US. That's how they forced it on the EU, with the CETA.

[bangyourhead]

Why would you willingly give up any of your sovereignty to an un-elected group of bureaucrats?

[JimRSmith]

What do you mean?

[bangyourhead]

You would have unelected officials making decisions for your country

[JimRSmith]

You wouldn't.

It expressly states that there would not be a common government, common currency or common taxation, as I set out in the third paragraph.

[bangyourhead]

Yeah. I totally trust politicians to never expand their power passed what they originally said they were going to do.

[JimRSmith]

Well, if that's the case, this proposal wouldn't leave the countries involved any worse off then.

[ronaldo75]

Canada is a British colony. Canadians seem to forget this. Australia takes a LOT of direction from the UK and NZ has never truly been it's own thing so... might as well.

[Historylover18]

We haven't forgotten it because we haven't been a colony for years. Britain doesn't control our foreign policy

[sp33d]

I would love to know the flat-earther's perspective on this.

[JimRSmith]

What's that got to do with the question?

[OrangeBoy2]

Seems interesting at first sight...

[NovissimumVirorum]

The only countries that matter

[2shredded]

USA?

[JimRSmith]

Not part of the present proposal, no.

[littleloren02]

Why would the USA be involved in this? You wanted independence remember? Keep it

[WolfsRoze]

I agree, our government is too messed up and any country should be wary of our obsessive ways of control.

[2shredded]

Oh is this like a serious proposal? Lmao then no the US wood never do that 😂

[2shredded]

I thought this was just a hypothetical fun idea

[WolfsRoze]

If I first I've heard of it...

[esotericstory]

The British just need to let go of their commonwealth nonsense.

[Walrus_au]

Why can't this just be an agreement between countries without there being whining about their history?

[esotericstory]

@Walrus_au Britain is European clay.

[Walrus_au]

Or Europe is swedish clay. All that kind of posturing is horse shit.

[esotericstory]

@Walrus_au Europe is our civilization. We have 30.000 years history that binds us together. Only Europe makes it possible that the sum of its parts can exist.

[Walrus_au]

Hey if you are suggesting brexit is a bad idea, I am with you.

But Australian Aboriginies have 50,000 years of history, should that make a difference to a decision like free exchange of citizens?

Crank it back a million or two years and our history is all out of Africa, maybe it is there we should be doing our trade?

[esotericstory]

@Walrus_au All European languages share a common Proto-Indo-European root. Except for Hungarian, Finnish and Basque language. Europe went through the classical antiquity, Middle Ages and Renaissance and Enlightenment Era together. Africa never was encapsulated in these Zeitgeists, time spirits, that gave the unique characteristics to these eras.

[Walrus_au]

And yet all of our genetics trace to Africa.

Meaningless in this decision. Where languages came from is also irrelevant.

What IS relevant is how beneficial such a decision would be to all citizens of these coutries. And their language roots are not a factor.

[esotericstory]

@Walrus_au Yes it matters tremendously. Language is heavily impacted by genetics. A people can only have so many words as they have the capacity to use them and remember their definitions. Only a fool would think otherwise. Its only Geniuses like Cicero and Shakespeare that have tremendously positively impacted the complexity of European languages.

Since non-Europeans never went through these stages together, like lets say Islamic peoples they are as you can see currently in Europe totally incompatible with European civilization.

Since classical antiquity Europeans have had a strong distinction between morality and law, this is not the case for Semitic peoples for example.

The commonwealth will fail just like the empire. Britain like every other country must and shall respect geopolitics and the laws of nature.

[JimRSmith]

It's frankly bizarre to suggest that a British person has more in common with a Romanian or an Estonian than he does with a Canadian or a New Zealander. As in deeply, deeply strange.

[Walrus_au]

As is this absolutely crackpot assertion about how languages and genetics works.

I think our neighbour here just successfully wrote himself entirely out of rational discussion.

[esotericstory]

@JimRSmith There is no reason to assume that the Anglosphere will survive longer than Europe has survived.
@Walrus_au Nobody disagrees in the fact that languages evolve together with ethnicities. Indo-European language does not form the blueprint for all languages on Earth.

The attempts to form a British commonwealth stems from reactionary nostalgia for the empire. The entire commonwealth will learn a very painful lesson. The lesson that demographics determines the destiny of a people. The fate of west was sealed when the west disregarded the fact that different ethnicities have different reproductive strategies.

[JimRSmith]

And that has exactly what to do with the point I just made?

[Walrus_au]

Just because languages evolve does not mean they are connected to genetics in any way.

The tool of evolution in language is the meme.

You have some very strange ideas about the world around you.

[esotericstory]

@JimRSmith That a geopolitical bloc with Europe is much more robust than the British commonwealth ever will be. If you want to know what Europeans have in common, you must simply explore its history and roots.

[Walrus_au]

And still - this has nothing to do with a free citizen movement between 4 countries, only one of them in Europe.

[esotericstory]

@Walrus_au If language was not connected to human evolution, every people would have the same words and the same amount of words, but they don't. There is nothing strange of bizarre to reject universalism and accept ethnic, cultural and linguistic diversity.

[JimRSmith]

And I reiterate - the idea that I have more in common with >Insert any European nationality< than with somebody from Canada, Australia or New Zealand AND certain other places, too, for the record, is complete and utter nonsense.

[esotericstory]

@JimRSmith We will see about that when the Anglosphere falls apart and the natives have their national consciousness awakened. Its impossible for the commonwealth or the Anglosphere to keep existing when Europeans and people from European descent their birthrates are below replacement rate.

[Walrus_au]

the capacity to use language is genetic.

The language is in no way genetic.
People learn what they grow up with, it furnishes them with a palette of sounds to form language. This makes learning languages that use the same or similar sounds easier. But certainly does not make learning other languages impossible.

This is easily demonstraighted by people coming from one area, having children in an area that start out with an entirely different language.
No genes.

[esotericstory]

@Walrus_au And after how many generations is the language still going to remain the same? Evolution = multigeneration.

[Walrus_au]

Wow, you must be deliberately disconstruing that. I refuse to assume you are that ignorant.

Just because generations come and go and languages change does not mean there is a relationship between genes and language.

[esotericstory]

@Walrus_au There is a relationship between our genes and everything man. I am going to mute this question now.

[Walrus_au]

You are so full of shit.

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

So like an English version of the EU?

[JimRSmith]

No really, no.

There would be no legislature or imposition of rules, no common currency, army or any of the rest of the shit the EU is attempting to slip in via the backdoor.

This would be about enabling people to live and work in other countries, without any of the political stuff being forced upon them.

[BronzedAdonis]

Supportive

[Dargil]

C. Why not Ireland?

[JimRSmith]

Ireland is an EU member. They're not even in the Commonwealth.

[Yessir12]

Nope! Let each country have its own laws

[Yessir12]

And also US citizens can travel visa free to these countries already.

[JimRSmith]

They would keep their own laws. Their citizens would have freedom of movement and employment between them, though.

[JimRSmith]

US citizens can't settle in any of these countries without the correct documentation, and nor can they work.

[Historylover18]

We would still have our own laws. This is a proposition for free movement of citizens since we (Canada) are basically cultural siblings with Australia and New Zealand and the "other child" of Great Britain