Which is worse in the US? 26,000,000 people losing their jobs or 60,000 deaths and 1,000,000 infected due to COVID-19?

[Physics-Man]

Jobs lost

Deaths and infected

[hellionthesagereborn]

I mean technically not that many people have died. They have conflated the numbers for flu, pneumonia, stroke and heart disease so the actual deaths by coronavirus are much lower. Also the 20 million plus americans that are now without money and thus food and potentially housing is far worse (any one who says otherwise is living in a fantasy world).

[loveslongnails]

Your statement is conjecture, and what do you mean "technically" ( funny wording, because they're all dead, so I presume you're trying to say they're dead SPECIFICALLY from ONLY the virus ) ?
The CDC guidelines say: "In cases where a definite diagnosis of COVID–19 cannot be made, but it is suspected or likely (e. g., the circumstances are compelling within a reasonable degree of certainty), it is acceptable to report COVID–19 on a death certificate as ‘probable’ or ‘presumed.’ In these instances, certifiers should use their best clinical judgement in determining if a COVID–19 infection was likely. However, please note that testing for COVID–19 should be conducted whenever possible."

In FACT, more experts are in agreement that the numbers are under stated rather than overstated, due to the "death from complications induced by the virus" clause. It's fine that you believe as strongly as you do about jobs, food, housing being worse, but you then state anyone who says otherwise is living in a fantasy world. What about the fantasy world you're living in regarding the number of corona virus influenced deaths? We already KNOW how many deaths from strokes, heart disease and pneumonia occur annually due to seasonal viruses, even in the worst seasons. THAT number is, in FACT, already surpassed and growing. So simply put, the FACTS don't support your initial statement.

[hellionthesagereborn]

@loveslongnails No its not conjecture. They have openly stated they are taking a "liberal' definition of covid deaths (this is the "experts" own words). They have shown that people who are being claimed as having died from covid have not actually been tested for it (so how can you claim they died from it if they didn't get tested). Since we have been keeping tallies of covid deaths we have seen virtually no flu deaths (kills 600,000 a year globally), pneumonia deaths (kills 2.5 million a year globally), stroke (kills 10 million a year globally), or heart disease (kills 18 million people a year globally). As for technically, they have not died specifically from the virus nor have that many actually died period when you consider the standard death tolls for other diseases (like the flu).

canadafreepress.com/.../the-cdc-confesses-to-lying-about-covid-19-death-numbers
www.cnsnews.com/.../cdc-now-counts-probable-covid-19-cases-have-not-been-confirmed-its
www.globalresearch.ca/.../5709062
www.thelancet.com/.../fulltext
www.thegatewaypundit.com/.../

[hellionthesagereborn]

@loveslongnails As for fantasy world, I stated that millions of people becoming jobless, which leads to homeless, which leads to food less (that's not how many people will be homeless if this keeps up, that's how many people are out of jobs, their families will potentially be dragged down as well which no one wants to talk about) which itself could lead to death (both from starvation to simply not being able to afford proper medical attention) is in fact worse then the people who have died from "covid", even ignoring that the number is artificially inflated and by all accounts the mortality rate is incredibly low, as well as the fact that it affects those over 60 and with preexisting conditions which is a small population. That's what is a fantasy world, if you think the complete destruction of our economy and tens of millions of americans (and counting) being potentially homeless is less important then the tens of thousands of people (again, ignoring all the data) that are old and already sick being put at risk.

[loveslongnails]

You can sit here all day and line up "experts" on both sides who wear swear to over or under inflation of the numbers. With my statistics background, I can do an analysis and factor in all those things based on past annual numbers. It would show there is STILL a much greater death rate occurring specifically in the USA, at least 5 times greater, due to Covid-19 both alone AND the complications factor. But I don't care to do that as it's a waste of time.

The point you are trying to make is simply send everybody back to the way things were, and see what happens, because we're going to collapse anyway, and may actually already have, if we stay the course. I don't see anything but millions and millions of more deaths and illnesses if that were to happen. The number dead now is now going to suddenly freeze there if everything just reopens. Nor do I believe it will proceed at the same ratio, which you seem to believe. It will be an avalanche of even greater proportion, and it will bury everything, and everyone.

[hellionthesagereborn]

@loveslongnails The reason why I hate arguing with leftists. Your the one who brought up experts, I simply argued that what your saying wasn't correct. Now that I have shown that your argument was flawed, now experts are no longer a valid argument? If you cannot hold to one position, if you have to shift the goal post in order to try to maintain your ideological belief and argument, then your more then likely wrong. I realize you cannot except that but this is a fact, experts have openly stated they are fudging numbers, the data shows it to be true (again, data, as in no bias just numbers). Their is no argument here, the claimed number of deaths is a lie, a provable one. You also dismissed everything I stated and clearly didn't read a single source provided because you would have then known that you cannot look at cumulative numbers because they do not show covid is worse, not only "five times worse", but in fact is at most as bad as the flu and potentially less sever. That's just using the antibody research, not even factoring in the inflated numbers. So no, what your saying is incorrect and provably so (I know its provably so because I just proved it and provide multiple resources to back it). Also what was argued was what is worse, collapsing the economy and ensuring that 8% of our population become jobless which can lead to homeless and starving not to mention the sever impact on those with preexisting conditions or the.01% of americans who have died (almost all of which were over the age of 60 and with at least 1 preexisting disease (and half of which had three or more)). Again, this is a no brainer, 8% of the population potentially dying is much worse then the.01% of sick people who ended up dying from this (again, ignoring all the data showing that its actually less sever then what is being presented).

[loveslongnails]

At this point, your position seems to be is that unemployment is worse than "going back to normal". My position is opening up won't result in "being normal", it will be even MORE catastrophic, which IS what, let's call them "MY experts" say from an epidemiological standpoint. I still haven't heard any "conservative" experts say "open the whole world up, we'll have a bunch more deaths and by then a vaccine, so it will be fine". I'm sure they are out there, and I've no doubt they think it's a better solution.

As far as experts go, you can find them on both sides of the same coin at times. You choose to believe the ones that have the most experience and the best "record" in their fields.

I'm sure you've seen the compilation video of Trump saying " I know more about _______everything, and I use it because it's an over the top example, but the principle is the same. And now, we're done.
Oh, and "leftists" as you erroneous label me, are the only ones who are going to "argue" your points. Your "righties" are your allies. Here's our clown:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GqJna9hpTE

[loveslongnails]

I didn't read the question to mean " Ok choose... 60,000 deaths or 26 million out of work". You can pick one or the other at the start of the virus and be done with it". If that's the question, I'd say take the deaths. That's not how I read it. My numbers are still good regarding the kill rate, EVEN IF they're being fudged 50%.
" You also dismissed everything I stated and clearly didn't read a single source provided because you would have then known that you cannot look at cumulative numbers because they do not show covid is worse, not only "five times worse", but in fact is at most as bad as the flu and potentially less severe."

Screw you again, because I DID read them. Not the entire study which Lancet did, that relied on numbers that were "gathered" from Wuhan? I can't rely on those numbers with all the secrecy going on. Another is the opinion of a single doctor in Canada, others are the fudge factor we've been talking about.

" Now that I have shown that your argument was flawed, now experts are no longer a valid argument? No idea what you're saying. You've produced a few opinion pieces, one with a fair amount of research which may or may not be accurate based on the numbers they start with because of where they come from. I acknowledge that adding "probable cause" without testing specifically can skew the numbers, but you don't acknowledge that Covid-19 has a more profound effect on pre-existing conditions than seasonal anything. And that is something the numbers CLEARLY show.

[hellionthesagereborn]

@loveslongnails Listen, your posting propaganda pieces from leftist sources, I have presented you hard data. You don't want to listen that's fine, but stop fucking talking to me because your clearly only interested in trying to brow beat me into believing what you believe and that's not going to happen because as I have pointed out, I presented hard data and facts and you present opinions and feelings and think that they are on the same level (they are not). I'm done with this conversation because you do not care about the truth, you don't care about the millions of people who's lives are being put in danger by this moronic lock down, you only care about yourself and your ideology (that your to stupid to question), so their is no way this can ever be a productive conversation because I am looking for truth and your looking for confirmation of your bias's (hence you ignoring every single sources I presented all of which were from actual scientitific organizations and counter it with a an opinion piece taking things out of context from the president who was not even apart of this discussion to begin with).

[loveslongnails]

I told you I was done. Stop talking to me. You accuse me of not caring about people? FUCK YOU. I care way more than you EVER will. You call the lockdown moronic? You are the idiot. This virus will be back in waves. So go to work, go get infected. I don't care. Now... can you understand what "I'm done talking to you" means?

[hellionthesagereborn]

@loveslongnails what a bitch. You lie through your teeth, demand the destruction of millions of lives, ignore scientifically backed clinical data, then you want to play victim? I have no respect for people like you, piss off.

[loveslongnails]

I demand nothing. The science you claim debunks everything is from "fringies", and you wouldn't know a stat analysis if it shit on your read. What you need to do is go to NYC and tour a hospital, without a mask, just like Mike Pence. Now go somewhere and mingle with a crowd, please.

[888theGreat]

If you don't have a life , why would living be so great? Out of 100 people , 3 get infected and 1/2 a person dies from it. Yet , the 99 out of 100 not infected is put under house arrest and has all rights taken away. Now I know what black people in 1800's lived like.

[tartaarsaus]

Health crisis is definitely worse than an economic crisis consisting of predominantly unemployment.

The government can pass legislation to prevent unemployment or people not being able to pay their bills. It just depends on their willingness to do so. In some nations, the government pays up to 90% of wages of people who may lose their jobs to prevent those jobs gone, and in the US people get a $1200 check. Quite a difference in effort to prevent unemployment from soaring. The reason for so much unemployment in the US is fundamentally down to the institutional level and unwillingness to change temporarily. Furthermore, the economic crisis the US is suffering from is not an endogenous thing where there is a problem in the economy itself, so one may expect quicker recovery than normal.

The government is not capable of just stopping a pandemic and without measures to limit the spread, there will just be a second/third/fourth wave where things need to be closed down. And if the spread of the virus is not mitigated, that 60 thousand deaths may just balloon to a million deaths.

Lastly, arguably a health crisis is worse for an economy in the long run, which is eventually what matters.

[Physics-Man]

Thanks for your response tartar sauce.

[tartaarsaus]

You’re welcome.

Slight edit: I meant more like that the long run of an economy matters when arguing the economics of such a crisis than the short run. After all, if the short run policy hurts the long run, you may benefit for a few months, but then have large problems for many years.

[Physics-Man]

Are you a SpongeBob fan?

[tartaarsaus]

I am actually

[tartaarsaus]

Though ATLA is better

[Physics-Man]

Avatar? I was never able to get into it unfortunately.

[tartaarsaus]

Yeah, the last airbender. It’s solid at number 1 for me

[Physics-Man]

SpongeBob's pretty dope. They have some freaking hilarious episodes! I haven't been able to watch it since I don't have cable, and haven't had it for years.

[tartaarsaus]

Oh yeah spongebob is legendary and some episodes are amazing, indeed. Too bad Hillenburg passed away though, way too young.

[Physics-Man]

Such a shame. Have the new seasons been as good as the first ones?

[tartaarsaus]

Not in my opinion, but I’m sure there is also a lot of nostalgia with the first few seasons so my judgement is clouded

[Physics-Man]

What's your opinion on the movies?

[tartaarsaus]

The first one was pretty cool, the second one was meh as I don’t really like itnwhen they try to fuse it with irl

[sensible27]

I am not sure, you would have to run the numbers on how many people will end up dead with both options. But everytime someone says something like this, this is the only clip that comes to my mind. https://m. youtube. com/watch? v=0k5aVLi_yhM

[JimboGB]

Many more people would die from losing their jobs and the destruction of the economy than has died from COVID-19. I'm not underplaying COVID-19 but I see people overestimating how long we could survive without an economy.

[JimboGB]

Only days ago, the World Food Programme Boss warned that due to coronavirus pandemic is projected to raise the number of people suffering actual hunger this year to 265million, doubled in 4 months. Without a strong economy you can't even afford a World Food Programme, forget fund it.

[MrKinktastic]

26k jobs temporarily or 60k lives/workers dead forever? I think the answer should be obvious.

[tartaarsaus]

To be fair, it’s 26 million

[MrKinktastic]

Fair, early morning and misreads are good bedfellows ;) my bad

I still think the temporary vs permanent factor matters more than the totals but finding ways to keep portions of the economy functioning so things pick up faster has merit I think.

[MrKinktastic]

Not to mention you guys are at 1 mil cases and 58k deaths as of this morning so its going to be a lot more than 60k before it’s over.

[tartaarsaus]

Oh yeah, especially a potential second wave would be more powerful, because it may spread exponentially in a lot of different places at the same

[MrKinktastic]

Exactly, it also hasn’t hit the Midwest or south very hard yet which is sounding more and more inevitable. I’m hoping a vaccine passes human trials ASAP so we can all dodge a bullet on this one. There’s a couple with potential for September but another 6 months to a year is much more likely

[SlothySlob]

You can always get a new job, but death is irreversible.

[SuccessfulHornDog]

The jobs wills come back fairly soon. The dead, not so much

[ItalianGuy2021]

The deaths of course. I mean the situation needs to be contained then we fix the economy.

[Meatunnel69]

The year is young grasshopper, 6% mortality portends millions of dead in USA

[lolcraft]

The civilization that you love in was not built in a generation. But it could collapse in yours.

[coffeewithcream]

Give it time.
You'll get to 100,000 deaths soon. Then you'll be happier.

[DeeDeeDeVour]

We can't recover from death, can we?

[AllThatSweetJazz]

So we should go out and work so we all have food, right?

[DeeDeeDeVour]

@AllThatSweetJazz: READ the primary question. "Which is worse in the US?"

[DeeDeeDeVour]

Clearly 60,000+ deaths is absolutely terrible. People who died ARE DEAD. Can you recover from death? People who are still alive "can" recover from loss of employment & income.

[AllThatSweetJazz]

Lost jobs relate to the economy falling apart and people not having access to food or other resources.
If enough jobs disappear then it very well could be worse. It’s important to appreciate the wider context.

[DeeDeeDeVour]

@AllThatSweetJazz: Like I said, 'People who are still alive "can" recover from loss of employment & income.' Plus, economies like the of the USA will recover in time. That IS clearly appreciating the "wider context" amid the terrible death tolls.

[DeeDeeDeVour]

"... like that* of the USA..."

[AllThatSweetJazz]

Okay, as long as your considering the wider context when coming to a conclusion then that’s all fine.

Personally I’m more concerned about about many more people being at risk in the long run as lasting damage is done to the economy, but okay. Fair enough.

[EmbraceThePain]

Deaths and people infected are infinitely worse.

[I-am-a-nobody]

@embracethepain
So, we'll be the healthiest third world country there is, except a third of us are obese.

[Anonymous]

The economy and the jobs will come back, but dead people won't.

[ChiTown33]

Jobs can be regained. Death is kind of final.

[TwoToTooTutu2]

If the job loss leads to death it is far worse.

[Dinosaursandanime65]

Like I said before, Life is meant to die

[GoodGuyBreakingBad]

Deaths and infected