Why are Westerners ignorant about German war crimes in Soviet Union during WW2 ?

[Janenow]

All Americans know about the 2 million rapes in Germany.

But they don't know about the 10 million rapes in Soviet Union even though Germans spared Western women, they took it out on Soviets.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_during_the_occupation_of_Germany

They alsodon't know the Germans burned millions of children and women in Soviet Union and killed over 13 million.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_war_crimes

Why are Westerners so ignorant about German war crimes, but are educated about Russian war crimes? All they know is Holocaust.

[EmperorOfRussia]

Those people believe that Black men defeated Nazi Germany in the WW2. Don't expect you can reason with them, Americans and Westerners in general are blatantly ignorant about history. Suffice to say, Russians replaced Germans as "natural enemies" in the American collective mind since the latter were defeated in the WW2, so everything is a reason to blame Russia. Those rapes in Germany just shows the barbaric nature of the war in the Eastern Front, millions of Russian soldiers were severely affected by PTSD and wanted revenge for what they saw the Germans doing in Russia, which was not even comparable to what happened to them in Germany.

[ThisAndThat]

Well yes this is true, we are ignorant on this subject. But so you know, we here are only as ignorant as the powers that be want us to be IE not our fault is we didn't know. Until this was mentioned here, I never knew about this. And I'm deeply sorry to hear that happened.

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

"Those people believe that Black men defeated Nazi Germany in the WW2."

Are you serious?

[Gravit1]

I am part Lithuanian and Polish. This side of the family came before WW1, but I am well aware of the atrocities of WW2. A fifth of the Polish citizens murdered for "living space", Polish citizens were murdered for disabilities or other people just being Polish. Also Lithuanians were murdered as well, they sought to leave the soviets and found persecution in from the Germans. The Germans hated the Slavic and Baltic peoples.

[COMMODOREII]

I know of this as well. I heard stories passed down from my ancestors through my family.

[Gravit1]

I don't hate the German peoples as my ancestry adds up to most of Northern Europe. However, I have disdain for Nazism and liberal eugenicist. Even now you have left leaning groups promoting the ideals of Nazism, just because they picked a different half of those ideals doesn't make them any less evil. Nazism in any form is evil left or right.

[COMMODOREII]

Exactly

[razelove]

Well, there was this little place called stalingrad, tempers ran high high on both sides. The soviets were a necessary alliance dissolved as soon as possible with the germans. They were a necessary alliance with the west as well, also put at arms length as soon as we finished divvying up the german brain trust that wouldn't be seeing the nuremburg trials.

We're probably ignorant of them because of that little thing called the cold war that followed into the USSR's clean up and recovery from world war II and getting even a count of approximately how many people they lost.

So, we were worried about possibly nuking each other at any given point in time until, what, the 80's? 50's to 80's? for that time frame less ignorance than not giving a shit, afterwards take your pick.

[Janenow]

Yeah, Russia is natural enemy to the US.

US even defended Nazi Germany and saved Nazis from being executed by Stalin, instead they gave these monsters trials with German lawyers, and while some were executed, many got away with their crimes.

[COMMODOREII]

We are not above the law.

[razelove]

@janenow You're talking about ignorance of the war crimes, go back a step, most people are ignorant that we were allies of russia up until the end of world war II. Also if not for stalingrad and the germans receiving a crushing defeat, with mixed results for russia because they lost so many people, also depending on russia to act as a buffer and threat to japan until we could rebuild our fleets, there probably wouldn't have been an america involved in WWII if russia would have just surrendered instead of running into that meat grinder over and over again.

[Janenow]

US got involved in Europe because of UK.

[COMMODOREII]

There is always going to be history with the US and UK.

[Janenow]

@COMMODOREII yes but I am saying even if Russian would lose, US would still get involved

[COMMODOREII]

Eventually they would have to. The US was trying to stay neutral for the most part. If Japan never attacked us who knows how far we would have let it go.

[Janenow]

@COMMODOREII You would be forced to transport soldiers into Europe to fight against Hitler.

UK couldn't do anything, they were dead.
You would be forced to fight and endure millions of lives.

[COMMODOREII]

Not true because i wasn't born yet. 😎

[Madhatter920]

All Americans know about that? Really? Who told you that? Not all Americans are educated about those things. WW2 was a long time ago and most of the people who were very educated about it have died off. The vast majority of Americans only know the most prominent information: Hitler and the holocaust. The vast majority of Americans aren't familiar with Russian war crimes, either. It's not relevant information, for the most part. There is no benefit to the average American taking the time to learn about it. Russia does occasionally come up in the news, as they viewed as one of America's current enemies, but most Americans don't pay much attention. Americans are very self-centered. If it doesn't have to do with them, they don't care.

[ThisAndThat]

Probably because all they talk about here is the holocaust. Until you mentioned what happened in the in the Soviet Union I never knew anything about it and I'm really very sorry to hear that happened. That's both sickening and sad.

[Janenow]

Exactly

[ThisAndThat]

I also have plans to move to Russia hopefully someday soon. If those plans workout, I'm sure I will learn a lot of the history there.

[Freddy78361]

Americans are pretty clueless about atrocities outside of the USA. World war II for example: we know about the 6 million Jews killed during the holocaust because Jews mention it.
Most don't know about the eugenics programs in Germany. Or the cannibalism and starving in the siege of Stalingrad. But it isn't just the Germans/Nazis. They don't know about the slaughter of the polish officers in the Katyn forest by theSoviets. Or the 20 odd million Soviets that died overall during the war because stalin used his own soldiers as cannon fodder.
Or the Japanese and Korean 'comfort women.' Or the rape of Nanking (1937?)
Our schools did not teach those.

[Janenow]

20 million Soviet soldiers didn't die in the war. Let alone being killed by Stalin.

It's about 9 million, and most died without Stalin fault, it was just a hard battle on the Eastern front. Those deaths couldn't be avoided.

[Freddy78361]

I didn't say soldiers. Estimates on total Soviet deaths during ww2 are somewhere around 25 million. Stalin was a monster but he didn't look so bad since the allies needed him to beat Hitler and (they thought) the Japanese.

[Janenow]

Right, sorry about that.

But did you even read my sources?

Germans killed 13 million civilians.
Stalin might have made bad decisions, but it was Germans fault

[Freddy78361]

You have an agenda with your questions. It appears to be 'Let the world know germans were bad during ww2.' My question is: "Why?"

[Janenow]

No, I am just pointing your fallacy

[Freddy78361]

You asked 3 question in the last two weeks about germans in world war 2 and their behaviors. Are you sure?

[Janenow]

Yes, you were incorrect in giving the fault to Stalin for the murder of millions of civilians and soldiers in the East.

Pretty pathetic if you ask me.

[Freddy78361]

You sound pretty judgmental. As I saide: you appear to have an Agenda. Are you Russian?

[Janenow]

That's your opinion.

In my opinion you have an agenda by defending German atrocities in Soviet Union. That is fueled by your incorrect stats.

[Freddy78361]

Good luck. I wish you well.

[Janenow]

Thanks.

[Janenow]

I wonder how you find out Stalin killed 13 million of his civilians when he was busy fighting Hitler and the Germans were murdering and raping civilians in the territories they invaded?

I guess you were right in saying Americans are pretty clueless about atrocities outside of the USA.

Or are you German?

[Freddy78361]

No. Just an American who studied ww2 history from a dispassionate perspective.

[Janenow]

Yeah more like American propaganda.

You guys hate Russians with passion, no wonder you and try and blame everything on them.

You haven't even been or lived in Soviet Union. But you think the sources I gave you are biased because they were not made by Americans.

I haven't even heard anyone but blame for German mass murders in Soviet Union during WW2 on Stalin. That's just insane, especially when the truth is in front of you.

[Freddy78361]

I believe in looking at all data sources. There are tremendous resources available that show the statistics of the atrocities in ww2. Who killed more slavs? The soviets. Look it up.
We are all (you included) limited by our biases. I recognize them and look for more data to understand the propaganda I am force fed so I can understand what happened.
Too bad my Russian friends (emigres after it became the russian federation) agree with me.
Why do you care about German actionscfrom 75-80 years ago?

[Janenow]

Soviets did not kill more than Germans.

No factual evidence supports that.

You ignore German atrocities in SU while having evidence in front of you. You are clearly biased.

You even believe Russians killed all the civilians in their own countries who were murdered by Germans. You are full of propaganda and use evidence that suits your agenda.

It's pathetic at this point really

[Freddy78361]

Lady.. let this go. Hitler and Stalin were both evil but in different ways. Both killed millions of people.

[Stockton]

Because my fellow Americans are spoon fed what to like dislike eat watch etc. And thry are to lazy to do any research the atrocities committed on the Russians and Slavs by the Nazis and even worse Stalin is inconceivable to most. They are one people who are seriously bad ass and tough as nails

[Lliam]

Westerners are ignorant about history in general. Do they know about the Eisenhower camps that exterminated a million or so German soldiers? Do they know how many German were raped and/or murdered by allies?

[winterfox10]

There are a lot of reasons. The biggest of the reasons is that the people who would tell us are dead. You're talking about atrocities that no one was photographing. The Soviet Union didn't want people photographing most of that stuff. After the Germans came through and sacked the regions, the Soviets would come back through to punish anyone they deemed anti-Communist.

[Janenow]

You are wrong, there is tons of evidence, my second link explains it

[winterfox10]

You might enjoy a series of podcasts called "Ghosts of the Ostfront." It's about the eastern front in World War 2. It's by an American journalist named Dan Carlin, and he does a really great job of not only researching the atrocities, but also explaining why westerners don't know much about them.

[SuccessfulHornDog]

I think that you're wrong. The average Americans knows more about German atrocities than Russian Atrocities. Only a handfull or history geeks could tell you more about Russian ware crimes than German Ware Crimes. And if they are Gag users then they might not even be Americans

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

They know more about the Holocaust, they don't know that on top of the 6 million Jews killed 13 million Soviet CIVILIANS were killed due to the Nazi invasion. Plus 60% of all Soviet POWs died in captivity (1/3rd of all Soviet military deaths).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OeRR100incE

[SuccessfulHornDog]

@Ad_Quid_Orator I agree

[Janenow]

@Ad_Quid_Orator exactly, they are ignorant

[Numbnuts89]

because germany is now our best friend

or well, now with this current American admin.

so, they want to forget that germany was under nazi rule during that time.

[Janenow]

Good for speaking the truth.

[2ndTryatThis]

Probably for the same reason that most know nothing about the Nazi occupation in Greece and the Turkish crimes that were even worse when the invaded.. they don’t care.. it hurts and people don’t even believe when you tell them. It makes no sense..

[Soteris]

Germany did many bad things during ww2 and of those the ones committed in Russia is not the top of the list. We know about the most iconic because we do not specialize in the topic. Its not general knowledge and is not generally useful compared to things like math.

[Janenow]

Why isn't it on top of the list

Because of western propaganda?

[Soteris]

Because the holocaust is more memorable and worse.

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

It is "useful" and I'll tell you why. After the second world war, the Soviet Union decided that they would never again allow something like this to happen to their nation. That's why the USSR had such a powerful military throughout the cold war but most people only saw it in context of their confrontation with the west while ignoring that the USSR had just gone through THE most devastating invasion in human history which made the Soviet Union seem like a much bigger threat than it actually was which allowed the Military Industrial Complex in many countries to fear monger there way into gaining far more power and influence than they would have been able to otherwise. Now, you could argue that "just" is a relative term but to this day it's still in living memory and we still don't factor the Nazi invasion into account when analyzing Russian military policy.

[Soteris]

@Ad_Quid_Orator So why does this matter if I am studying for something like an electrical engineer?

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

Because you still are a voter and have a say in your countries' politics.

[Janenow]

Why is it worse?

Less people died there.

[Soteris]

@Ad_Quid_Orator So you need to be educated on political matters as well as the geopolitical situation of every other country on earth? Give me a break. Besides its complete bullshit in the first place. Russia and by extension the Soviet Union has always had a great emphasis on a strong military and WW2 did not in any way change that.

[Soteris]

I dont have any exact numbers but I think around 3 million Russians died in captivity and I have no idea how many died from other atrocities instead of just being civilian casualties in the war but if we compare that 3 million causality to the holocaust then twice the number died in the holocaust.

[EmperorOfRussia]

"Germany did many bad things during ww2 and of those the ones committed in Russia is not the top of the list."

The Soviet Union lost 26 million people, 10 million women were raped by the Germans, there was the Generalplan Ost, and now we see an ignorant Swedish f*gg*t claiming that "the German war crimes in Russia were not the top of the list." I don't blame you, though, we all know how shitty is the educational system in Sweden.

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

"So you need to be educated on political matters as well as the geopolitical situation of every other country on earth? "

No but more people being aware of it will mean they will elect candidates with better foreign policies.

[Soteris]

@EmperorOfRussia Well civilian casualties happens in war, this is especially the case with the Soviet Union in ww2 since more often than not there were still people trying to actively live inside active war zones including places like Stalingrad. If you do not protect your citizens from being in direct combat then you are going to have unimaginable casualties hence I can't decide how many of those dead were as a result of Nazi war crimes and which were just the expected collateral damage under those circumstances.

[Soteris]

@Ad_Quid_Orator Oh really. Now that is one heck of a slippery slope argument. There are ENDLESS skills and topics to learn about if you want to be qualified to elect "better candidates". But again, I still consider your argument of the Russian/USSR geopolitical situation as wrong.

[EmperorOfRussia]

26 million deaths were not a "collateral damage" as you pretend it was, but part of the genocidal enterprise called Generalplan Ost, which I bet was the first time you've heard of.

Again, I'm not going to blame you, since your Swedish educational system probably only taught you how to put a condom on with your mouth instead of making you learn about history.

[Soteris]

@EmperorOfRussia I never pretended it was only collateral damage but on the other hand you claim none of them were which just means your own argument against me prove how fucking retarded you yourself are.

Also Generalplan Ost was never fully implemented so you may stick that back up where you found it.

[EmperorOfRussia]

Dumbo, that's mathematically impossible that 15 million civilians could have died due to collateral damage. As a comparison, Germany lost about 500 thousand civilians (for the most part, they weren't evacuated) due to the military campaign and the air raids.

"but on the other hand you claim none of them were"

You are just dumb. Did I say there weren't civilian deaths on the EF due to collateral damage? No. I just said the number of civilian casualties was for the most part the result of a genocidal policy. The Luftwaffe bombed Stalingrad aiming to destroy military targets, but 40 thousand civilians died because of that - this was collateral damage. The Siege of Leningrad, however, was the GPO being put into practice, the objective was to starve the population of the city and it caused a million civilian deaths. Now do the math.

[Soteris]

@EmperorOfRussia First of all there is no cap on how many people who can die from collateral damage. Secondly the Soviets had no issues letting their civilians die and hardly evacuated any combined with incredibly harsh weather and destroyed infrastructure. Saying that half of that 15 million died through indirect means is not a particularly big claim in my opinion and that puts the figure into the holocaust territory by itself.

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

@Soteris Russia in WW1 had a far less developed infrastructure yet we see nowhere near the death rates in regions that were occupied by the Germans. And many Soviet civilians died of causes that we might see as being "indirect" such as starvation but that's because to ease the logistics, the OKH
had the Wehrmacht "live off the land" (i. e. steal the food from the people) causing many to go hungry.

[Soteris]

@Ad_Quid_Orator Well obviously. People die when infrastructure fails, not necessarily when it was never there in the first place. If your fancy new infrastructure feeds and supports a population then that population starts to rely on that infrastructure and will suffer horribly if it goes away all of a sudden. How many millions of people would die in USA if the power was out in the entire country, much less if food or water could not be distributed?

Also WW2 was a lot more brutal than WW1, especially in population centers such as city bombing or just how much collateral damage was caused to everything be they people or environments.

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

Well by that logic, you'd expect a similar (or greater) civilian mortality rate when the Soviets invaded Germany but 150,000 German civilians were killed (all causes) by the Red Army which is 1/100th the number of Soviet Civilians killed. Now you could argue that this was because the USSR had more people but the population of East Germany was 1/10th that of the USSR so the civilian death rate is 10X higher than what would be expected in the USSR.

[Soteris]

@Ad_Quid_Orator
1: There was not "the worst winter in generations" in Germany.
2: Less destruction of infrastructure
3: Quicker advance and less fighting in cities.
4: Germany took a lot more care of their civilians than the Soviets did and did not let them all die on the battlefield.

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

1. Winter 1944-1945 was one of the coldest in European history.
2. More people were killed in Germany by strategic bombing than any other country; what do you mean less damage to the infrastructure?
3. The Blitzkrieg strategy avoided cities and Barbarossa advanced faster than any Red Army offensive.
4. Is that a joke? FFS the Nazis used child soldiers!

[Soteris]

@Ad_Quid_Orator
*sigh* You honestly think there is not a major CRITICAL difference between a "bad" winter in central Europe and a BAD winter in RUSSIA? As in you might have an inconvenient time being cold in Germany VS "I had to break off the frozen rod after I went peeing outside".

Sure Germany got bombed a lot but that is not the same as targeting infrastructure. The Soviets actually avoided destroying most of it specifically because they intended to use it themselves as they advanced where as they intentionally destroyed their own using scorched earth tactics.

No the German assault in the Soviet Union did not in fact avoid cities. In fact the most famous examples of urban fighting comes from just this front specifically because Hitler ordered certain key cities to be taken.

The soviets also used child soldiers. Your point is?

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

-And do you have any statistics that show most of the Civilian deaths occurred in the winter of 1941-1942?
-The strategic bombing did target the infrastructure and when the Soviets moved into the cities, there wasn't much left to destroy due to the American and British bombing raids.
-The first time there was major urban fighting was in Stalingrad which was the high water mark of the invasion.
-The Soviets used a partial scorched earth policy while the Germans razed half the Ukraine to the ground when they retreated.
-My point is there isn't a good case for the Germans to be so much more caring of their civilians than the Soviets.

[Soteris]

@Ad_Quid_Orator Well you are just wrong. Sure the Germans were cruel but they were also very focused on their civil aspects.

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

Wow, someone's still falling for the "savage Russian Slav" propaganda.

[Soteris]

@Ad_Quid_Orator No its just fact.

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

It's a fact that as being uncivilized and uncaring is how Nazi Propaganda portrayed the Russians to justify their war against them and during the cold war, German generals peppered in knit picked pieces of their own experience into this narrative and sold it to the West.

[Soteris]

@Ad_Quid_Orator You mean how the Soviet Union killed far more of its own people than Germany ever did?

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

About how the 13 million non-Jewish Soviet Civilians killed by the Nazi invasion were for years falsely attributed to Stalin? I'm well aware of this distortion.

[Soteris]

@Ad_Quid_Orator Oh please. If we are talking about Soviet Union then they have killed probably around 60 million of their own people

[EmperorOfRussia]

Soreris, can you cite any source to substantiate your claims? This is ridiculous.

[Soteris]

@EmperorOfRussia books.google.nl/books

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

You are aware that is 1/3rd of the population of the Soviet Union the time it was established right?

[Soteris]

@Ad_Quid_Orator Your point is? That its even worse based on how large of a percentage of their entire population it was?

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

My point is that there is no demographic evidence that the USSR lost 1/3rd of it's population in the interwar years.

[Soteris]

@Ad_Quid_Orator I just provided you evidence of just such a thing.

[EmperorOfRussia]

Soteris,

R. J. Rummel's numbers about the political killings in the Soviet Union and China are not validated by any reputable scholar nowadays. Try harder, neoliberal.

[Soteris]

@EmperorOfRussia He is a scholar you nupty.

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

And he cited previous estimates about Stalin's death toll that gave the 60 million figure but he didn't argue that they were accurate.

[EmperorOfRussia]

I know he is, dunce. I just said his the scholar consensus doesn't doesn't give credit to his wayyyyy inflated numbers.

[Soteris]

@Ad_Quid_Orator So if you ignore him because he simply analyzes data then what was your argument again? All you are doing is moving from having to disprove him to having to disprove his sources.

[Soteris]

@EmperorOfRussia As far as I know he is very respected in this field and his estimates is considered as one of the most accurate.

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

There are other (more accurate and descriptive) estimates
[http://sovietinfo. tripod. com/ELM-Repression_Statistics. pdf]

[Soteris]

@Ad_Quid_Orator His data is accurate and descriptive enough. He put sources on this information and presents it without hiding its origin. You can present your own numbers if you want but you are not undermining his sources just because of that.

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

The source I provided did indicate where they got their data.

[Soteris]

@Ad_Quid_Orator So did my source. Your point is?

[Janenow]

What?

15 million civilians died of indirect causes?

It is estimated that 7 million died from direct violence from Germans. 4 million died of starvation. It is right in the second source I gave in my question.

Up to 10 million women were raped by Germans. These genocides and rapes were happening all over Soviet Union, not just battle zones. Germans were wiping out citizens in the occupied territories.

Seriously, you believe what you want to believe, despite there being so much evidence.

3 million?
Yeah, seems like typical Western/German propaganda

[Janenow]

It is not possible to evacuate millions of people, when you are not prepared and caught suddenly by your enemy. He wasn't even bothered to read my sources he is biased.

You try to pretend Nazi Germany wasn't at fault for all those millions of women and children that died in Russia from German genocides. And blame everything on Russians.

Seriously, you Swedes obviously despise Easterners and Russians, but I didn't know it was this bad.

You are just as bad as Holocaust deniers. There is so much evidence that Holocaust happened, yet they still claim Jews died of Typhus instead of mass killings that Germans were responsible for.

This is the same crap. Its pathetic really. Let alone the 60 million imaginative deaths that apparently SU is responsible for.

The delusion is REAL.

@EmperorOfRussia He is crazy. He obviously believes 15 million people died in Stalingrad and few other battle zones. Its just ridiculous

[MaidenMandy30]

Ignorance is a choice in this generation. No one likes to read anymore or learn anything

[TwoToTooTutu2]

We're tought way more about how bad Hitler was. But we generally don't care about bad things that happen to our enemies.

[Janenow]

Yeah, you sure cared about what happened to Nazis when Stalin wanted to wipe them out and you publicised Russian rapes in Germany.

This shows the US was on Germans side during WW2 and hated Russia

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

"This shows the US was on Germans side during WW2 and hated Russia"

Um, the US fought against the Nazis. You could argue that the US should have done more against them but we weren't "on their side".

[TwoToTooTutu2]

We publicized what Russia did because we didn't like them, and half of Germany swapped sides. And the other half was in Russian control. It was an attempt to bring down the Berlin wall, not support the Nazis after we killed them.

[Janenow]

You didn't kill a lot of Nazis though.

That's my point, you executed a few and let others many go.

Stalin wanted to kill them all, but you protected them with the law.

Gets to show US was never on Russias side, but on Nazis side, hence why you didn't publicise German war crimes in Soviet Union.

Germany was always allies with the US.

[Janenow]

@Ad_Quid_Orator No, this guy said it himself.

They publicised Russias crimes, but kept Germans crimes which were far worse hidden.

It's clear who they favoured.

[TwoToTooTutu2]

No we didn't. We don't care about Russia. Why would we need to know about German warcrimes against the soviet union? Most people are not taught about Japanese war crimes against America. So by that lodgic we hate ourselves and love Imperial Japan?

[Janenow]

The war crimes of Japan on America were minuscule. A pretty ridiculous comparison to Soviet Union.

The problem is you keep denying it like these crimes didn't happen while shoving down peoples throats what Russians had done.

You are just as evil as Nazis.

[TwoToTooTutu2]

"Minuscule"? Really?

Let me tell you something. If you ask who was worse in America Hitler or Stalin, you'll hear Hitler way more despite Stalin having double the kills on innocent people.

"Just as bad as the Nazis" that is the stupidest thing to say. We hate both of them. Soviets and Nazis. WE HATE BOTH OF THEM. WE HATE BOTH OF THEM.

[Janenow]

Both the US and Germany show the same behaviour towards Russia because you both hate them.

That's why you don't publicise German war crimes other than the Holocaust. Its a way of protecting Nazi Germany from being hated because you both have the same goals.

[TwoToTooTutu2]

We publicized WWI war crimes too. And the Nazis were only in power during the holocaust. GERMANS are not NAZIS. NAZIS ARE NAZIS. Not all Germans are Nazis.

[Janenow]

Yeah, what did Japan do to you, other than Bomb pearl harbour?

That's hardly nothing.

If Germans killed 13 million Americans you would destroy the whole world and ensure EVERY country knew about it.

You are Nazis in disguise.

[Janenow]

The only crime you reported was the 2 million rapes in Germany.

You didn't report the 10 million rapes and 13 million murders in Soviet Union by the GERMAN army.

You didn't report the 15 million Chinese deaths from Imperial Japan either.

Neither the 3 million starved in India by the British.

You only reported what suits you, and that is Russian war crimes. You follow Nazi propaganda. Especially with those numbers.
Stalin killed 8 million at max, that's confirmed deaths.

[TwoToTooTutu2]

Concentration camps, beheadings, rapes, ignoring surrender executing pows, not taking pows, etc. The Japanese were on another level, but... you wouldn't know or care. It doesn't have anything to do with your country's involvement in the war.

[Janenow]

How many Americans died as a result?

20,000? Pathetic.

Yeah, the Germans killed that in a day in Soviet Union.

During WW2 majority of Germans were Nazis and supported Hitler.

[TwoToTooTutu2]

The US was on separationist forigen policy, so no we didn't care about what happened. That doesn't mean we support the fucking Nazi party

[TwoToTooTutu2]

That's 40% of Pows. There weren't many pows because those who surrender were weak and deserve death anyway.

[TwoToTooTutu2]

Plus we show that we care about what happens to our citizens. Why report on how many soviets Hitler killed when Stalin killed more. If anything he was helping Stalin.

[Janenow]

Again, you have no evidence Stalin killed more people, you are assuming things. That's part of Nazi propaganda.

So you proved that the war crimes against Americans were minuscule and irrelevant during a war where millions die. Thank you.

Your reluctance to report millions of innocent deaths shows you favour Nazi Germany. Your policies didn't stop you from reporting Russian war crimes

So who raped and killed those millions? It was Germans, GERMANS

Stop defending them.

The US are undercover Nazis.

[TwoToTooTutu2]

Nope Nazis killed zero Soviets thats "Soviet propaganda" America doesn't need to report Warcrimes against the Soviet Union. That's the Soviets' job. "I have no proof Stalin killed more than Hitler" You have no proof any rapes happened either. The difference is I acknowledge both sides suck ass. Both sides are Evil. What it sounds like to me is that you're trying to downplay what the Soviets did throughout history. Nor do I downplay bad things to happen to your country. Stop defending Soviets. I'm not Defending the Nazis. I've said bad things about them this whole time, but you've never pointed out 20 million killed by Stalin.

[Janenow]

I gave you sources to the mass killings and rapes. You are now being very stupid, refusing to acknowledge it.

I have evidence, you have claims to support your views. No credible source says Stalin killed 20 million. All claim 8 million at most. Do some research.

You never said anything bad about Germans, all you did was criticize Soviets and defended Nazi Germany, by claiming, despite evidence provided, that Nazis didn't kill or rape Soviets.

Yeah, that's what I call ignorance.

Unlike you, I accept 2 million Germans were raped and up to 1 million killed by Soviets. Still, nothing compared to Germans killings.

[TwoToTooTutu2]

en.m.wikipedia.org/.../Excess_mortality_in_the_Soviet_Union_under_Joseph_Stalin

[TwoToTooTutu2]

I've never defended the Nazis. I defended Germans because you generalized every German calling them a Nazi, but that isn't defending the Nazi party.

[Janenow]

8.1 million proven deaths.

Thanks for proving my point once again.

[Janenow]

You defended Germans who killed 13 million people.

They were soldiers, but still GERMANS

Your Nazi propaganda is not working

[TwoToTooTutu2]

Some say up to 20 million. It doesn't matter. Like I said. I hate both, but you seem to have a boner for Stalin and starving to death so that your country can spend your money paying Mao Zendong to kill 60 million people, and send a dog into space. We teach that both parties are bad so that nobody falls for their shit politics again. To explain why the US was involved. Knowing that German soldiers raped somr long dead Soviet Women does nothing for a Mechanic, Doctor, Lawyer, and 90% of people. It's useful for a Sociologist, but not all westerners are Sociologists. So, why should we know? We already know that the Nazis were bad, we know that the Soviets were bad, but we can't spend all out time learing about what two assholes did to each other. We live on a planet with thousands of years of history, not on the Eastern front in 1941. I'm sorry I don't know about every atrocity to happen ever, but that doesn't make me a fucking Nazi.

[Janenow]

So why do you need to know Russians raped 2 million women?

The 13 million murders of women and children in Soviet Union which you claimed didn't happen based on your Nazi propaganda are far worse than the 2 million rapes in Germany.

Also, Russia is part of Soviet Union. The other countries are completely innocent and didn't take part in any crimes.

So you are generalising by saying the whole Soviet Union was involved war crimes. This is factually wrong and hypocritical as you claimed Germans and Nazis are not the same.

That's due to your ignorance of Soviet Union, which is what I expected of an American.

[Janenow]

You are wrong, I don't support Stalin.

Want to know why? Because I think he was a complete fool for leaving Germans alone in Nazi Germany who were just as much of Nazis as their leader and army.

He made them work and rebuild Soviet Union, which was good, but he didn't avenge any deaths of his civilians.

What a fucking asshole he was, right?

I actually think millions of Germans should have been wiped out to make up for the civilian deaths. There were 4 years when Germans were under Soviet occupation where this was possible.

I would be in fact much harsher than Stalin.

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

"I actually think millions of Germans should have been wiped out to make up for the civilian deaths. "

WTF is wrong with you?

[Janenow]

@Ad_Quid_Orator I am driven by revenge and my motto in life is:
eye for an eye
tooth for a tooth.

[TwoToTooTutu2]

You're making me think you're a fucking Commie. Why do you want revenge? Are you Russian? If not, it shouldn't matter.

[Janenow]

I don't consider myself a Communist, but some of my values are rooted from Communism.

My family were hard Communists, and no I am not Russian, but I was raised during Soviet times under a Communist regime.

You are ignorant once again.
Germans killed 13 million SOVIETS. Not RUSSIANS. They destroyed half of Europe. Despite the sources I gave you, you can't understand it, your reading comprehension is bad.

An American can barely understand this, as you went through nothing in your country.

While I have nothing against modern Germans, I loath the older population, and my comment about wiping them out applied to the Nazi Germany times where revenge was justified.

[TwoToTooTutu2]

So you're Eastern European? Tell me why are Easterners so ignorant to Japanese War crimes against Americans during WWII? Could it be the fact that it isn't your history? That it doesn't effect your politics? Or the Answer I gave and have been saying the whole time?

[Janenow]

No, I am from Central Europe. Formally my country was known as Czechoslovakia. We were a satellite state of Soviet Union.

We are not aware of it, because they were so minuscule that they weren't significant compared to larger crimes like the Holocaust.

Crimes outside of Europe are also far less publicised in Europe. It has nothing to do with our continent.

10,000 people are easily lost, but it is hard to ignore 13 million.

Why do you think most people know Japan wiped out Chinese people during WW2? Most Europeans know Japanese were evil. They know because millions died there.

Americans also weren't very active in Europe during WW2, and only got involved in 1943. They missed a lot of the war, and many people criticise them for not doing more.

Americans were more involved in the Pacific theatre, so they are just not seen as important over here. Same with the British.

[Janenow]

WW2 was basically won by Stalin and the Russians.

Most Germans got defeated in Soviet Union and Central Europe.

[TwoToTooTutu2]

That is what I am saying. Your history is your history, and my history is my history.

[TwoToTooTutu2]

That is subjective, but doesn't change my point.

[Janenow]

Yes, but you failed to explain why your country feels the need to publicise Russian crimes on Germans, but not German ones on Russians.

[TwoToTooTutu2]

We never publicized Russian crimes against Nazis. If you're talking about east and west Germany, that is post war.

[Janenow]

You claimed US hates BOTH, but your countrys actions speak otherwise.

[TwoToTooTutu2]

Yes we hate both, went to war with both, and denounce both. What does it have to do with not preaching each others war crimes against one another.

[Janenow]

And yet you still believe German civilians were innocent, when they all supported Hitler and the holocaust

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

The majority didn't support Hitler nor did he enter power by democratic means. He was appointed vice chancellor by Paul Von Hindenburg and became chancellor after Hindenburg died and abolished the position of vice chancellor. Most German civilians also didn't know about the Holocaust.

[Janenow]

@Ad_Quid_Orator wrong, majority knew and hated Slavic and Jewish people.

The older generations still hate them and feel no sympathy even now.

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

Hated doesn't necessarily mean that he thinks that they should be exterminated.

[TwoToTooTutu2]

And Russian citizens get a pass for supporting Stalin?

[Unit1]

Selective history classes in public schools. Is that what you are talking about?

[Janenow]

No I am talking about facts

[_no_one_]

I am ignorant to both coz it was is past, we should learn from it and try to focus on what we should do right now to make our future better.

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

Too much Antony Beevor, not enough David Glantz:

https://www.youtube.com/embed/8sROXZQGmnA

[Alexandrubaschet08]

Why are Westerners ignotants about Soviet war crimes in East Europe including germany as well?

[Alexandrubaschet08]

That number from Germany (Berlin) is only a reference to the true scale of the crimes committed by the Soviets in Eastern Europe.
Throughout their "liberation" journey, no country except Czechoslovakia welcomed the Soviets with open arms. All the countries of Eastern Europe fought as much as they could against both regimes.
But the USSR is always forgotten as an aggressor state!!!
The USSR and Germany signed a non-aggression pact "Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact" in which they divided their territories in Eastern Europe.
ON September 17, 1939 THE INVASION OF POLAND BY SOVIET TROOPS TAKES PLACE. At that moment, women were raped, children kidnapped and killed, men beaten, humiliated and later shot like disgusting beings, the depopulation of native localities and their replacement with Russian-speaking and Russophile populations.
USSR going to invade and do exactly the same thing in Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania.
Later, after 1941 and the return of the Soviets to the Eastern Bloc in 1944, numerous resistance movements were activated in all the countries that were to be "liberated". These fighting with inversion both against the Nazi and Soviet armies.
Most of the crimes of the USSR were not in Germany, but in Eastern Europe, Poland, Romania, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Bulgaria, the Baltic States, Finland.

[jgracem]

UUUHHH I am a westerner and I knew about this.

[tHISpLACEiSbONKERZ]

LMAO Russia wasn't much better. Really glad we got them fuckers out of Poland.

[Janenow]

They far better than Germans if you compare the damage they have done

[tHISpLACEiSbONKERZ]

No, not even close. Not here.

[Janenow]

Russia killed 150,000 civilians in Poland during WW2.

Germans killed nearly 6 million

What are you talking about?

[tHISpLACEiSbONKERZ]

I'm talking about what was before www.britannica.com/event/Partitions-of-Poland and about what came after en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial_law_in_Poland and everything in between. The reasons why Poland and much of eastern Europe is still considered to be third world. Your numbers paint a picture, but they say nothing about how the situation was in Eastern Europe for the next 40 to 50 years. I'm talking about Gulags and lack of freedom, how everything was being shipped to Russia and only scraps were left for the people. When Germans came through Polish villages in search of Jews people weren't nearly as scared as when Russia came here.

[tHISpLACEiSbONKERZ]

[tHISpLACEiSbONKERZ]

en.wikipedia.org/.../History_of_Poland_(1945%E2%80%931989)

[tHISpLACEiSbONKERZ]

I'm talking about how western Europe was rebuilding after the WWII and how the eastern Europe went into slavery for the next 50 years under Russian rule.

[tHISpLACEiSbONKERZ]

Everyone who lived during those times would tell you that Russian officers were far worse than the German ones. www.quora.com/Which-occupation-of-Poland-was-worse-Soviet-or-Nazi
Germany was worse for the Jews but Russia was worse for everyone else.

[tHISpLACEiSbONKERZ]

I get much of my point of view from stories of people who lived through it all, you probably get yours from biased history books.

[tHISpLACEiSbONKERZ]

Whatever Russia got it deserved. Not pity here for therm.

[tHISpLACEiSbONKERZ]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_crimes

[tHISpLACEiSbONKERZ]

www.nytimes.com/.../...d-as-victims-of-stalin.html

[tHISpLACEiSbONKERZ]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulag

[tHISpLACEiSbONKERZ]

All of the above and much more are the reason why most people are "ignorant" or better put indifferent to what the Germans did in Russia.

[tHISpLACEiSbONKERZ]

Also did you even read the content of the links you posted?

"The majority of the assaults were committed in the Soviet occupation zone; estimates of the numbers of German women raped by Soviet soldiers have ranged up to 2 million.[7][8][9][10] According to historian William Hitchcock, in many cases women were the victims of repeated rapes, some as many as 60 to 70 times.[11] At least 100,000 women are believed to have been raped in Berlin, based on surging abortion rates in the following months and contemporary hospital reports,[9] with an estimated 10,000 women dying in the aftermath."

[tHISpLACEiSbONKERZ]

What you posted clearly states that it were Russian troops who were doing most of the raping in the Russian territories. And this is also how everyone who was alive at that time remembered it. Russians being far more evil to everyone than the Germans.

[Janenow]

You are biased towards Russia when they liberated you.

You also ignore and support the murder of 13 million people and rapes of 10 million women in SOVIET UNION and NOT Russia.

You even don't care about the millions of Poles that got killed by Germans. Russia never killed that many people in Poland or Soviet Union.

Germans were burning women and children alive, millions to be exact. Russia was raping to a far smaller extent. in your country too and you are ignorant of it.

You are extremely biased and ignorant.
Russian was stupid for helping you in WW2.
They should have let the kind Germans wipe you out.

You got what you deserved for siding with Nazis.

[Janenow]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_war_crimes

10 million women raped by Germans

You see what you want to see, like Nazis.

My family lived in Czechoslovakia during WW2 and said Germans were far worse and raped every girl.

[Janenow]

I never wanted to post the first link in my post, damn.

[tHISpLACEiSbONKERZ]

I see what I want to see? You posted it... The hell is wrong with you? They were both evil.

[Janenow]

You denied German war crimes on your own people.

Your own women and children, you are the crazy one.

I gave you a link to show you the truth you don't want to see.

The atrocities far outweigh any Russian crimes

[tHISpLACEiSbONKERZ]

You could probably use a psychiatrist.

[tHISpLACEiSbONKERZ]

Also what the actual fuck is wrong with you? Did some German guy leave you for someone less psychotic?

[tHISpLACEiSbONKERZ]

Or are you some ass stupid Russian?

[EmperorOfRussia]

I get it that you Polish people resent Russia. But let me ask you a question, do you think Americans are any better?

[tHISpLACEiSbONKERZ]

@EmperorOfRussia There are good and bad people in every nation, I don't resent Russia, I was just pointing out that both Russia and Germany did some horrible things in the past. Not really sure what her crusade is about. Most people hurt by WWII are long gone, it's just history now. But to answer your question I'd much rather have a Russian by my side than an American.

[tHISpLACEiSbONKERZ]

I'm a Slav afterall.

[tHISpLACEiSbONKERZ]

I'm fully aware there wasn't much love for Stalin in Russia either, compared to Hitler he was just the "lesser evil". Dude was a psychopath.

[EmperorOfRussia]

That's right, no hard feelings. I just wanted to point out that regardless of what we think about each other governments (and I know you Polish people have very strong reasons to dislike the Soviet era, to want justice for Katyn and so), we are all Slavs and we have a legacy to defend. The Anglos and the Americans are not our friends. But you know it too and that's great. 👍

[Janenow]

No, you clearly said you don't feel sympathy for the millions of civilians killed by Germans in Eastern Europe.

So why are you so angry now?

You said Russians were far worse when Germans were much worse, and I proven that to you.

You see only Russian war crimes, because you are ignorant.

But really? Russia did good by treating Poles and Slavs the way they did.

You people are crazy, act like pigs, all you can do is drink and fill yourselves with food. In addition to that, you are violent and fucked in the head.

Russian regime was very good for you.

No I am not Soviet or Russian.

[Janenow]

You said it, you said you have NO PITY for them.

You don't even want to acknowledge the mass murders commited by Germans, because they were on Russian and Soviets.

You are just as bad as the Nazis and Americans.

[Janenow]

"Whatever Russia got it deserved. Not pity here for therm."

You said it. You psycho.

No wonder so many Polish people are fucked in the head

[COMMODOREII]

The Holocaust is a part of German war crimes.

[Janenow]

Again, there is much more to it. Westerners are ignorant