Do you support Jihad or Israel?

[msbrightness]

It comes down to that - overpopulation vs civility and single-wifeness

Jihad

Israel

Updates

+1 y

Those girls supporting jihad - I wish you happy sharing of your husband with others. One child each max please.

[nightdrot]

The question is flawed as "jihad" is a term of convenience used to define an ideology. Whereas Israel is a sovereign state. Insofar as that is the case, "jihad" is a hostile ideology and I do not support it. As far as the Israel v. Palestine question goes, I would vote neither as, from an American perspective, it should properly be viewed as a strategic calculation, not a moral decision. That said, your characterization of it as two children fighting over a toy is an unjustified trivialization of the question.

There are serious moral issues at stake, and it has been an accepted principle of international affairs - at least since the end of World War I if not before - that national self-determination is the right of a people. It's partly the reason why the victorious Allies broke up the Austro-Hungarian Empire and it is why imperialism is in such bad repute today.

That said, international affairs are about power, not principle - except insofar as sovereign powers have the ability to assert their moral principles. In the Palestinian-Israeli case, there are conflicting nationalisms, though in the Palestinian case, the sense of national identity is somewhat weak - with Palestine divided between Palestinian nationalist, Islamist and (to some degree) pan-Arab identities.

These splits within the Palestinian community have significantly weakened the Palestinian cause, with about the only thing holding the Palestinian factions together is their ardent right to return to what they consider historic Palestine. In that connection, it should not be forgotten that the United Nations Organization divided the territory in a two state solution and it was the Palestinian Arabs, not the Israeli Jews, who rejected that compromise solution.

As to the situation now, the Palestinian cause is largely over - the media images notwithstanding. The decision by the Palestinians to support Saddam Hussein's Iraq against Kuwait in the 1990-1991 Persian Gulf War effectively ended Arab support for the Palestinian cause in fact if not in name.

Throw in the rivalry between Persian-Shiite-republican Iran and the Arab-Sunni-monarchies (as well as Egypt.) You now have a de facto alliance between Israel and the Arabs, effectively shutting out the Palestinians (who are increasingly looking to Iran.)

From the American viewpoint, that Arab-Israeli alliance is useful for hemming in not just Iran, which is small beer, but Russia - which in geostrategic terms matters more. In that connection, then, support for Israel makes sense.

The Palestine issue for the U. S. is secondary and if - as they recently states - the Palestinians do not see the U. S. as a mediator, then that is their affair and the status quo will suffice. Palestinian options are few.

[nightdrot]

P. S. With apologies, my reference to "two children fighting over a toy" was in response to a question similar to yours, but to which the questioner had added that characterization. I was answering both questions at the same time and conflated my answers.

My apologies for the error.

[msbrightness]

You have a sane (and honest) head on your shoulders.
It isn't as common as one would hope.

[nightdrot]

Thank you for your kind comment.

[msbrightness]

Welcome

[abc3643]

I support having a nuclear weapon dropped on Jerusalem (*). Then, the problem is solved because they'll have nothing to fight over.

(*) Giving everyone plenty of warning to get out of town before it happens. It isn't about killing people. It's about removing the object of contention. It's a Solomon-like solution...

1 Kings 3:16-28
Contemporary English Version
Solomon Makes a Difficult Decision
16 One day two women[a] came to King Solomon, 17 and one of them said:

Your Majesty, this woman and I live in the same house. Not long ago my baby was born at home, 18 and three days later her baby was born. Nobody else was there with us.

19 One night while we were all asleep, she rolled over on her baby, and he died. 20 Then while I was still asleep, she got up and took my son out of my bed. She put him in her bed, then she put her dead baby next to me.

21 In the morning when I got up to feed my son, I saw that he was dead. But when I looked at him in the light, I knew he wasn’t my son.

22 “No!” the other woman shouted. “He was your son. My baby is alive!”

“The dead baby is yours,” the first woman yelled. “Mine is alive!”

They argued back and forth in front of Solomon, 23 until finally he said, “Both of you say this live baby is yours. 24 Someone bring me a sword.”

A sword was brought, and Solomon ordered, 25 “Cut the baby in half! That way each of you can have part of him.”

26 “Please don’t kill my son,” the baby’s mother screamed. “Your Majesty, I love him very much, but give him to her. Just don’t kill him.”

The other woman shouted, “Go ahead and cut him in half. Then neither of us will have the baby.”

27 Solomon said, “Don’t kill the baby.” Then he pointed to the first woman, “She is his real mother. Give the baby to her.”

28 Everyone in Israel was amazed when they heard how Solomon had made his decision. They realized that God had given him wisdom to judge fairly.

[msbrightness]

And you believe the remaining 1.99 billion islamists wouldn't find the next target for abuse?
Lol.

[abc3643]

No, not really, because the source of tension between the Islamic world and the west has been Israel.
You need to understand that Muslims, via the Qu'ran, are obligated to look-out for each other and protect each other. When Israel was created, it wasn't just created as a place for Jews but AS a Jewish place thus making the Muslims there (the Palestinians) be de facto second-class citizens, yet, this was their homeland. This is another example of the UK not giving a shit about the people who live in the places that the British have ruled. By creating arbitrary borders and not carrying about the "lower" ethnicities, they breed hostility - just like what's going on in India and Pakistan.

Israel was created in response to the Holocaust. I am not saying that that was incorrect because the Jews did need a homeland. However, Israel should have been created as a nonsectarian nation like the US. When you create an official religion, you create a discriminated class made up of those who don't follow that religion. This is why we have separation of church and state in the USA.

Anyway, the creation of Israel is one issue, but Jerusalem in particular because major holy sites in both Islam and Judaism are in Jerusalem. Because of that, each religion wants to control that city.

If the city was destroyed, then the holy sites would no longer exist and no one would be fighting over them.

Think of it like a nasty divorce of a marriage involving one kid and each parent wants sole custody. If the child is killed, then there's no custody dispute.
... or they get their shit together so the child isn't killed...

Which is something that the Israelis and Palestinians just can't seem to do.
Once again... religion and bigotry: fucking everything up.

[msbrightness]

I don't buy the whole 'we'll just blame it all on the west/the colonial powets' spiel of all of the 3rd world any longer.
Blame it on India and China for a change - both are (individually) way bigger than all of the west, mancount wise, and much more entangled with muslems than the west.
You could let the west, or the north for that matter, be - and stick to the more equatorial/tropical regions you prefer.

[abc3643]

I have no idea what you just said. Can you please rephrase and make a bottom-line assertion?

[Sargentcaptain]

Oh, what's this, another western rando with a braindead Middle East take, well say it ain't so. Just because you support Palestine, doesn't mean you support the fucking Jihad. Stop with the strawmen and address people's actual arguments. Even if you wanna pretend that Israel would be a thing had it not been for the Brits giving away land that the Brits had no right to give away, you still can't deny that Israel is killing 20 Palestinians for each Israeli casualty. Defense is one thing, but I highly doubt that the hundreds of dead children were murdered because they presented a threat to a state backed by billions of dollars, curtesy of the American taxpayers. Aside from 'defending' themselves from hospitalized children, Israel also 'defended' themselves from Bosnians fighting for their independence. And by 'defended' themselves, I mean supported a genocide (funnily enough, a mostly Muslim genocide). It's almost as if a country that is currently conducting segregation based on people's beliefs has a prejudice against people with differing beliefs. I don't know about you, but I find the fact that Israel supported a genocide fucking hilarious, especially so cause they lied about it, then denied it, then covered it up. But see, I'm still not a fucking lunatic who would say that you are in favor of the Bosnian genocide, because I can understand that people have political ties that are more nuanced than that of a Star Wars movie.

https://balkaninsight.com/2016/12/08/israel-court-denies-request-for-bosnian-war-deals-data-12-07-2016/

[msbrightness]

Yeah, quote Ottoman morons from the Balkans in support of Jihad by not mentioning its name.
Anything smart to say or just diarrhea?

[Sargentcaptain]

And do you support Ratko Mladic, as in convicted war criminal Ratko Mladic? Again, stop it with the strawmen. Fucking no one is in support of the Jihad. The only one here handwaving away war crimes is you. Aside from murdering over 8,000 people, Mladic is also responsible for mass rape, forced internment of Muslims, genocide and ethnic cleansing, and that's only the tip of the iceberg. Mladic and Serbia didn't want to let Bosnia go trough with their secession from Yugoslavia, so they started a war which resulted in tens of thousand of dead civilians. All the while Israel was giving away firearms and training Serbian soldiers at Israel's expense, something we know not from Israel's own admission (they covered it up and lied about it), but trough the diary of Ratko Mladic (you know, the motherfucker who got charged by the international tribunal with crimes against humanity, genocide and war crimes). Funny how most of his victims were Muslims. Almost like Israel ain't all that innocent after all. In addition to being actively in support of a war criminal, genocidal maniac, Israel also routinely bombs schools, hospitals, homes for the elderly and just plain old civilian populated living complexes. Israel really does kill approx. 20 civilians for each death Israeli. In the recent shitstorm, the numbers are approx. 6 murdered Palestinian kids for every Israeli. Still think it's just muh defense, or were all those ten year old Jihadis?

[msbrightness]

Not one bit. That, according to me, was the Ottoman trickery to get an 'Aryan' - Mladic - to commit a massacre of other (mostly) Aryans - to prove that a) blue eyes convey no superiority, b) Ottomans are so cunning they can cause that, c) set up Serbia to be relying on Turkey and hated by muslims - so it falls right back into its Ottoman past.

[Sargentcaptain]

This is one of the most retarded, incoherent and deluded reads of my life. Do you know anything about the history of Serbia/Yugoslavia? Anything about Mladic's actual beliefs and reasoning? You realize that firstly, Ottomans fell, oh some 70 years prior to the Bosnian genocide, right? What would be the exact dimension this game of chess would be played on, 20th? You do understand that Turkey is a Muslim country that, shocker, supported the Muslims during the Bosnian genocide, in fact Turkey recognized Bosnia even before Bosnians recognized Bosnia. Turkey was one of the nations that started bombing the shit out of Serbia in late 90s with the NATO bombing on Belgrade. Serbia is a lot more reliant on Russia anyway. A lot of this doesn't really have to do much with differing religions or aryans, it's got everything to do with the fact that Bosnia was a country that wanted to get out of Serbia's grasp, whilst still, not just neighboring Serbia, but also having dominant Serbian ethnic makeup as well. Besides, historically Bosnia was part of the Ottoman empire, so I don't really see the logic in 'well let's just get a third party to kill them off, we'll gain a lot of something from that, I guess'.

[NamerOfStars]

Hmm... So we have a group of people asserting that their ancestors' possession of a piece of land gives them divine right, backed with religious authority, versus... a group of people asserting that their ancestors' possession of a piece of land gives them divine right, backed with religious authority. This ain't Israel vs Jihad, it's Jihad vs less polite Jihad. I support neither.

[msbrightness]

Islam has the concept of Jihad, Judaism doesn't

[NamerOfStars]

Are you under the impression that Israel was acquired in the first place by asking nicely? They still have it; it's just gone out of vogue for a dozen centuries or so.

[msbrightness]

I consider it irrelevant, taking into account the space occupied by muslims vs the space occupied by the jews.
Look at the map/the globe and how tiny their spot is. There is a huge muslim insistence on privilege wherever they live. The jews, yeah, they can get a bit annoying by their 'specialness' - but then they are small and kind of special in that regard. And pretty faithful - I don't know a single Jew who'd lie to you/invent a complete story to rob you of your genuine self.
They pay as little as they can get away with, but I never got robbed by them. And I did get set up by muslims, quite a number of times. Sometimes just to insult and demean me and for no other reason.

[NamerOfStars]

... And that's relevant how, exactly? "Muslim" isn't a culture; if anything, it's LESS than "Jewish" is. A handful of people being corrupt doesn't say a damn thing about the religion they all share with a billion and a half people.

[Anonymous]

Interesting that most women support a regime and ideology that treats women as second class and dictates who they can have sex with and who is allowed to have sex with them. You women do realize you would be sacrificing your basic human rights by embracing Islam, right?

[msbrightness]

They don't expect you to share a man. And you get to lead. The capable women are thus... 😊

[4dmins-4-13itches]

I support Jihad. haha jk I support Iran which supports Palestine but ultimately I don't care too much it's far away and removed from my life.

[msbrightness]

Meh, it's all India and poverty. Enjoy the plague of your ways.

[4dmins-4-13itches]

Eh Iran is not India

[msbrightness]

It's a simple extension of it pretending to be a while lot more. Almost all of the middle east and Maghreb is extended India.

[4dmins-4-13itches]

Lol are you Flemish or Walloon? I think this simplification is so silly whatever

[pokerbot]

Do you even know what Jihad is?

[msbrightness]

Yeah, the forced islamisation of everyone and everything is what they market these days.
And it isn't like there are muslim clerics coming forward with anything more meaningful. Just blind rage, basically, rooted in envy.

[InfobotLives]

I voted C

[msbrightness]

So a Jihadist as well then

[InfobotLives]

No, I said option C 😌

[Princess__Serene]

Palestine.

[msbrightness]

So, Jihad

[msbrightness]

Are you happy to share a man with other women?