Do you believe the presidential election was stolen from Trump through voter fraud?

[Anonymous]

Yes

No

Not sure

[WindAtMyBack]

We know for sure that there was some voter fraud going on. There were also some strong indications that a lot more was going on than what we know for sure. Whether it was enough to throw the election is open for debate since there is no way to know the numbers.

Another thing that happened for sure was that the conservative vote was split between Republican and a third party. There were three states where conservatives had the majority but Biden won the state by plurality. Without that split vote, the electoral college would have been an exact tie.

The idea of "throwing your vote away" by voting third party gets talked about all the time. In this last election it actually matter. Trump lost three states because of it. The last few times a third party got a significant number of votes it went against the Republican candidate. Further in the past it went against the Democrat candidate, like when Wallace ran independent after not getting the Democrat nomination. However, 2020 is the only one that was enough to swing the election.

[Goatmeal]

Lol pretty much all of your arguments are nonsense.

[Exterminatore]

Hard to say. I do believe there was some fraud. Was it enough to make Biden president when he shouldn’t have been? We’ll never know for certain. What I do know is the left wanted him out at all costs. They hated him so intently they were willing to do anything to get him out and keep him out. They tried impeaching him twice. I can’t put it past them to say they didn’t steal the election. I’ve never seen such inflamed hatred for a president in my life.


Newsweek had an article where was admitted by people involved in the Biden campaign that the media manipulated things. We know statistics were inflated. We all saw the empty Biden rallies. We know the media both television and social media waged a campaign to get Trump out.


I do also believe many who voted for Biden would have voted otherwise if it weren’t for Trump’s antics. This is probably what caught a lot of people off guard. I voted for Trump but admittedly I do not like him as a person. He’s clearly a narcissist and some of his comments and getting into insult wars with people made him look like a 4 yr old. His policies were sound. I think over all he did an excellent job of being president. So that said I think a lot of people were really turned off by that and voted for Biden. I think it caught a lot of people off guard thinking Americans would elect a man who has dementia. I also think a lot of people who voted for him were unaware of how radical Biden’s presidency would be. If they’d been paying attention they’d have known better.


Final answer: I’m not sure.

[Anonymous]

Of course it was. Trump never loses. Not legitimately anyway. The only way he ever loses anything is if his opponent cheats. It’s true. Ted Cruz cheated when he won against Trump, just like every other person who has ever “beaten” him. (Just ask Trump, he’ll tell you it’s a fact)
Trump is just too awesome to lose anything, EVER.
The sooner people start to understand that, the better off we’ll all be.
VIVA LA ORANGE LEADER!
✊✊✊✊ ✊✊✊✊✊

[chrissykerdock]

watch election night around midnight if you can trump was leading in 7-8 states in which he lost ALL by noon the following day... PA leading 440,000 with 80% in... lost... a little suspicious... proving may be hard but they had lots of affadavits swearing cheating occured but it wasn't recognized by the powers that be for some reason.

[tuvwxyz]

Further, regardless this difference, some where Trump was way up, Biden ended up winning every state by little more, or less, than 1% of Trump's lead nearly every time - the victory margin nearly always was around the same amount - just enough to get Biden his electoral votes.

[abc3643]

This is because, when there aren't many votes in a precinct such as in low-population precincts, they are easy to count and so those are reported first.

The high-population precincts have many votes that need to be counted. They are always the last to be reported because there are so many votes to count.

The reality is that low population areas usually vote for the GOP while high population areas usually vote DEM. So, this means that the GOP votes in the low-population areas will be counted and reported first. It will seem like the GOP has the lead - and it does at that point in time - but then the high-population areas start reporting their counts and those will have many DEM votes.

This is exactly what happened in Pennsylvania because the high population areas in PA are the cities of Pittsburgh and Philadelphia... especially Philadelphia which is one of the largest cities in the USA. Their votes came in last and, as usual, was predominantly DEM. That's why the DEMs won PA... and a lot of other states.

This isn't just a Trump phenomenon - this happens in every election.
What made this election exceptional was the extraordinary "turnout" (number of people who voted). A lot of people voted for Trump - more than in 2016. And Trump in 2020 got more votes than any other presidential candidate before him. The problem is that a lot of people realized Trump was a nightmare. And many of those people were Republicans (Google Lincoln Project). So, they didn't so much vote for Biden as they did to get rid of Trump. This is why Trump lost, but there was no Blue Wave. These GOP voters didn't vote for Trump but they voted for the GOP "down-ballot".

In short, there was no widescale systematic fraud.

[tuvwxyz]

@abc3643 You're right. My apologies for concluding differently than you, thereby automatically making my beliefs incorrect, by default.

[loveslongnails]

@tuvwxyz Rather than get your puffiness up, you could have really paid attention to "abc's" point about it not being a Trump phenomenon. He cites historical facts, which you obviously don't care to research because you have no room for an explanation other than your own, which makes sense to you because you want it to.

The extraordinary "storm" of Covid-19 and massive mail in votes caused counts that took up to 7 days in some states. Trump urged his base NOT to use mail ins, and they listened. They voted first and early, so when the heavy Dem districts came in both with in person and then mail in votes, they overtook his lead.

[chrissykerdock]

@loveslongnails wow talk about an idiot... notice they were all in democrate states the leads were lost... i don't buy your stupid lies... you don't overcome 440,000 votes with 20% to go without cheating you loser boys don't get that.

[loveslongnails]

@tuvwxyz Also, do you realize that most of the legal challenges brought by Trump's attorneys had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with voter fraud? Zero. You know why? Because they had no PROOF of voter fraud, nor do they now. Lawyers know when you stand before a judge making accusations, you need "proof", not wild conspiracy theories. The "affidavits" from election workers who saw, or thought they saw voter fraud amounted to nothing that would overturn the results which EVERY STATE sanctioned, even the Republican ones. Most of Trump's legal challenges were on technicalities, or claims that the states broke their own Constitutional rules. Rather ironic that Trump should be screaming "you circumvented your own Constitution!", when he did the very same thing as much as he could. For example, his phone call to Georgia, a criminal act.

67 different judges through out every single one of his cases, and the SCOTUS refused to hear any of his nonsense. Apparently however, you have information that they don't because he "mysteriously lost his leads" after the mail in votes. What you HAVE is 8 million more people who wanted him out than wanted him in. Not a huge margin, but enough.

[abc3643]

@chrissykerdock
Young lady, I just explained what you observed. It makes sense that that was going to happen.
I refuse to believe that you are that intellectually challenged.

Let me give the PowerPoint Version:
1. Rural places vote GOP.
2. Urban places vote DEM.
3. Rural places have less votes so their votes will be counted and reported early.
4. Urban places have more votes so their votes will be counted and reported late.
5. Thus, GOP votes will be counted and reported early, while DEM votes will be counted and reported late.
'
Also, though, GOP voters didn't bother voting by mail much... mostly partly because they didn't believe in the virus.
DEM voters who did believe in the virus voted by mail. Mail-in votes were counted last.

[loveslongnails]

It doesn't matter what you "buy" or don't buy, nor are you very good at math, nor do you understand where the ballots counted were coming from. With 1.4 million ballots remaining from extremely heavy Democratic districts, Trump garnered only 28% of the vote to Biden's 72%. That gave Biden a 1.8 million votes to Trump's 392,000, allowing him to wipe out the deficit and lead by 156,000.

This is not unusual in either heavy Republican or Democratic areas. Trump did the same thing to Biden in areas of Los Angeles, Houston and a few other cities with heave Repub neighborhoods. I don't hear you crying foul about that?

The "lots of affidavits" you speak of didn't amount to anything that would result in widespread fraud. They were indeed investigated by the DOJ, which I remind you was at that time, still under the control of a Trumper. They found nothing. Barr found nothing, and he was a Trumper till the end.

You and the other Big Lie believers cling to this fantasy that 6 or 7 states were in a conspiracy that reaches SO high up the ladder that even the courts are in on it. The theory that every state's election board in the crucial states are in on it, EVEN the Republican controlled states, like Georgia. Talk about lies. When you can prove ANYTHING that even reeks of the word "widespread", let us all know.

A little history lesson might help you. Go look up the famous 1944 election of Dewey vs Truman. Learn something.

[chrissykerdock]

@loveslongnails typical liberal blinded by the reality who doesn't want a free country

[loveslongnails]

Holy shit. Trump and his criminal cabinet were the furthest thing from "free" that you'll ever see. Even know, Flynn goes on suggesting sedition. They're totalitarian maniacs, and it is you young lady, who are SO blind that you bow and submit to con men like Trump who care absolutely NOTHING about, FREEDOM, YOU or this country except for the profit it can make him. YOU blindly take up the Republican chant and rant against anything "liberal" without even knowing what it means. Then you re-spew their rhetoric, push their unproven and baseless claims, and support it with... nothing. And I'm the idiot? I hate to even think this, but based on your comments, you'd have made a great German soldier circa 1939.

[chrissykerdock]

@loveslongnails you have no standing... we'll be talking chinese in 10 years... your a total asshole

[loveslongnails]

And if that's true, the reason you'll be talking Chinese is because as we speak, your fuhrer continues to tell WHAT to the American people? He is telling them EXACTLY what Communist China, North Korea and Russia tell their people about our government and voting - that it's corrupt and doesn't work!! They tell them America is about lies and their totalitarian form of government is the BEST and the only way !! That's what your fucking asshole moron has been doing since November... completely undercutting Democracy, destroying faith in our Constitution, and promoting himself as an infallible "true leader". And YOU, and his followers, swallow this bullshit like it's manna from heaven while you DARE... yes DARE to call yourselves "PATRIOTS" !!! You're worse than an asshole - you're the fool following one and licking it while you exclaim "it's not shit! Really, it's not!" You're a fool.

[loveslongnails]

And you still don't understand math, statistics or election districts that do not work in your guys favor. You just believe what you want to believe, just like your hero, based on nothing.

[chrissykerdock]

@loveslongnails watch mr pillow presentation... there was fraud in the elections go to PA go to affidavits over 1000 that state fraud... your just in denial because your a fat lazy scumbag

[abc3643]

The problem is...

Where were these alleged affidavits during the 2-month period between the election on T 03 NOV 2020 and the certification of the election on W 06 JAN 2021?

If these affidavits existed and had any legal worth, the Trump legal team would have presented them in court during that 2-month period and the election in PA would have been legally suspect and dealth with accordingly.

Since that didn't happen, one or more of three things happened:
1. The affidavits were filed after those 2 months, but then we have to ask: Why does it take two months for all these people to suddenly remember that there was fraud?
(*) 2. The affidavits were in time and presented in court, but the court determined that they were legally worthless or fraudulent themselves.
3. The Trump team never presented them in court (Why? Because they realized these affidavits were. legally worthless.

(*) >>> AND THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED.

The Trump team tried right away in PA, so they weren't late with the affidavits.
The Trump-appointed judge and former GOP apparatchik even said they were worthless.

I quote from his AP article covering this:
apnews.com/.../judge-throws-out-trump-suit-pennsylvania-87eaf4df86d5f6ccc343c3385c9ba86c

U. S. District Court Judge Matthew Brann wrote in his order that Trump had asked the court to disenfranchise almost 7 million voters.

“One might expect that when seeking such a startling outcome, a plaintiff would come formidably armed with compelling legal arguments and factual proof of rampant corruption,” Brann wrote, so much that the court would have no option but to stop the certification even though it would impact so many people. “That has not happened.”
...
Brann ruled that Pennsylvania officials can certify election results that currently show Biden winning the state by more than 80,000 votes. He said the Trump campaign presented “strained legal arguments without merit and speculative accusations... unsupported by evidence.”

[loveslongnails]

LMAO ... Mr Pillow. You're so stupid it's ridiculous. I watched his "presentation" - it was laughable.
Meanwhile, you have NO retort to my comment because you know it's true. Liz Cheney is 100% correct - Trump is spouting anti-American, Communist Party line bullshit, and you're licking it up. If ever there was a traitor in our midst, it's him. Save your breath. Further comments from you are worthless.

[abc3643]

OFFICIALS FINALLY FOUND A CASE OF A DEAD PERSON VOTING IN PENNSYLVANIA!

A Republican was pretending to be his dead mom to vote for Trump.
He also registered his dead mother-in-law as a Republican.

www.businessinsider.com/voter-election-fraud-pennsylvania-charge-dead-mom-vote-trump-2020-12

[loveslongnails]

@abc3643 "Widespread Dead Voter Fraud" ! LOL Give that vote to Trump. LOL

[abc3643]

www.washingtonpost.com/.../

TITLE: Despite GOP rhetoric, there have been fewer than two dozen charged cases of voter fraud since the election
SUBTITLE: One person has faced charges for every 10 million votes cast
By Philip Bump
National correspondent
May 4, 2021 at 9:29 a. m. CDT

...
In fact, a review of local news reports shows there aren’t many examples of even individual voter fraud. By our count, there have been only 16 incidents in which someone has faced criminal charges stemming from their attempt to vote illegally. This includes instances in which it isn’t clear whether a ballot was cast but excludes failed efforts to obtain absentee ballots.

Those incidents:

... /* See the article. */

That’s it. That’s the total.

You’ll notice that none of these incidents hints at some deeper conspiracy. There’s no allegation that any of these people cast hundreds of ballots for their preferred candidates; in most cases, the allegation centers on casting a ballot for someone known to the person facing charges. It’s not even the case that all of these ballots were necessarily cast for Joe Biden. The man from Media, Pa., voted for Trump. In most cases, it’s not clear for whom the vote was intended.
...

[loveslongnails]

@abc3643 Thanks for your thorough research. It's a pleasure to see facts presented instead of hysterical trumpers who in turn, accuse people armed with facts as being deranged !!

[OlderAndWiser]

I don't think we can ever know the answer to that question. There are areas in which Republicans were not allowed to observe the vote counting and there are areas in which the late counted votes almost exclusively went to Biden. When you combine the suspicious circumstances with the Democrat resistance to voter ID laws, it does provide a reason to wonder. . . but there is no definitive proof of sufficient fraud to vitiate the results.

However, those who disparage anyone who dares to question the results seem to be the same one who laughed when others suggest that covid-19 came from a lab in Wuhan. Those tactics are beginning to fail the far left.

[MCheetah]

Yes, and they LITERALLY admitted to doing all of this in TIME Magazine. You have to be a special level of retarded if you still think the election wasn't stolen six months into Sleepy Joe's presidency. He's doing all the same shit Trump was doing, but piss-poorly.

Even Democrats hate Biden for not keeping his promises. This MF'er had armed military personnel on Inauguration Day, the first time in recent history that's ever happened. Like a literal fuckin' dictator. But even before his "election," Democrats still didn't want him, anyway. They wanted Bernie Sanders to be their guy, but was told Biden was the "right" choice for them. And they had such raging Trump hate boners, they agreed to OBVIOUS AS FUCKIN' SHIT election fraud, because they would literally have voted for Adolf Hitler's zombified corpse if he ran as a Democrat.

Sheep who think they're not sheep are a special kind of stupid, like I said. Trump wasn't perfect, but he had the key to stopping Pandora's Box from being opened. Now all shit's gonna break loose, in the form of red Chinese communists and these STUPID braindead, not-qualified-to-be-legal-adult dipshit motherfuckers voted in all this corrupt shit.

I usually try not to get angry at voters for a broken system, but this was so fucking obvious, and people still chose wrongly. If your only choices are "an orange loudmouth" and a "Chinese Communist dick-sucker puppet," then you choose the Orange Man; I don't give a fuck how many buzzwords you want to throw out there. Fucking assholes. When you're all Communist slaves to Xinnie the Pooh, don't say a damn thing about "how could this happen to us?"

*Note: I only curse when I'm angry.

[MCheetah]

I'm mostly mad at the ones who rigged the election on the ground. The "ballot counters" and shit. These dumb assholes. I know politics is always about the rich tricking and misleading the poor and stupid, but this was insanity. Thinking you have to cheat to win, and that you're still the "good guy" for taking a steaming shit on the last bit of Democracy America had left.

I don't blame everyday people thinking Biden was "at least not worse than Trump." I blame the non-rich people who actually helped in the election fraud. That's literal treason, if you ask me.

[MarkRet]

No. This has been investigated time and time again. Something like 50 or 60 lawsuits were filed by the Trumpers, and all of the lawsuits fell flat, due to lack of evidence. If there was voter fraud, where's the proof? If the Democrats were pulling some kind of sneaky crap, why did they actually LOSE seats in the House?

What this is all about is that Trump is a narcissist, and the very concept of losing is something his ego can't handle, so he constantly cries about the election being somehow stolen from him. As for the Republican Party, They're either flat out butt-kissers, or they're cowards who won't stand up to a bully. The few Republicans who are grounded in reality and actually DO have guts to stand up to Trump are being eliminated one by one.

I wish this whole voter fraud thing would go away, but Trump can't let it go.

[cth96190]

Of course there was massive criminality by the Democrats.
https://www.infowars.com/posts/find-out-where-the-votes-really-went-election-fraud-special-report/
https://www.infowars.com/posts/election-fraud-prosecution-at-an-all-time-high-texas-attorney-generals-office/
https://banned.video/watch?id=5ff5d5f18675e930bd8e2c27

[tuvwxyz]

No, I believe Joe Biden ran such an effective campaign, while being far more pro-lockdown than the other candidate, while millions were losing work, homes, businesses, that he got a record number of votes, to where approximately 1 in 4 people in the United States not only went out to vote (but voted for Joe Biden), while Trump was packing arenas, and Biden could barely fill a school gymnasium during a rally... it all makes perfect sense, nothing about this could suggest there was any fraud.

As the media basically repeated, like a machine with some master programming it: "there's no evidence of fraud anywhere, ever, everything is completely secure, to question of anything else is ignorance and craziness, and you should feel ashamed of yourself to even question election integrity."

[tuvwxyz]

To thumbs down, I have a backbone, and never tell someone not to question, challenge, or attack my position, because I can stand behind it, defend it, watch modern institutions, many are a bunch of spineless wimps who make excuses, attack someone else, or try to use money and power as force to silence anyone who doesn't act as they decide, but once the shit hits the fan (ex: email leaks, scandals, etc), out come rationalizations, justifications, apologies - no strength, backbone - trying to excuse, or explain away, why they're not guilty, or their behavior is acceptable - pleading with the public for forgiveness like spineless cowards they are

[goaded]

Oh, for goodness' sake, there was a PANDEMIC. Filling stadiums was simply reckless and stupid. Sometimes, people want leaders who aren't reckless and stupid.

[tuvwxyz]

You're correct. My apologies for not perceiving things as you do, thereby automatically making my perspective invalid and wrong.

[goaded]

That's a cute little move to avoid actually justifying your positions. I see you enjoy using it.

[tuvwxyz]

@goaded I don't process things as you do, I try to process intellectually, a random stranger on the internet is enough to trigger you to get annoyed/belittlement (thus resulting condescending remarks) over frustration at inability to control my actions. Just wonder why a random stranger on the internet trigger's you emotionally.

[goaded]

Another attempt to avoid actually justifying your position, rather than, as you said: "stand behind it, defend it".

One candidate called on Americans to be sensible during rallies and when voting in the middle of a pandemic that was killing hundreds of thousands of Americans, the other was encouraging his supporters to ignore all that. Then the latter's supporters point to the large gatherings and the larger proportion of in-person voters to say he should have won.

[tuvwxyz]

@goaded Finally! An absolute, objective, complete description of reality distilled into one paragraph... My side good, other side evil. No dispute. Got it lol.

[goaded]

I'm willing to back it up with arguments, rather than just pretend that everyone's opinion is equal (except yours, of course, which you clearly think is superior). Was anything I said wrong?

There was (and is) a pandemic. Trump knew the virus was airborne in February 2020 and still held mostly maskless rallies through to the election, at which he encouraged his supporters to vote in person. These are just facts.

[FakeName123]

1. I don't believe. I think. Believing is for religion and whatnot, but not when you try to make sense of matters.

2. I do think there have been some rather big irregularities in the 2020 election. Do these mean that Trump would've won? I don't know. But it is at least suspicious that after the entire Muller thing the Democrats now try to down play anypotential election meddling. First they say it happened during 2016 and now they say it's impossible to happen. So clearly something's off. But I lack the insight or information to pinpoint what exactly is off.

[abc3643]

This is the most depressing question that I have seen here in 6.5 years. It tells me that there are a phenomenal amount of idiots here. It makes me re-evaluate why I am trying to protect our species when the best thing for the universe is for another meter to hit this planet.

[abc3643]

Unfortunately, idiots can vote - whether in national elections or here at G@G.

[supercutebutt]

Only dopes think that. It went to court a million times and was thrown out, usually by conservatives he appointed, a million times. Recounts were performed numerous times and now sham recounts are happening because Trump can never admit he lost... so he has to cheat. He is a baby. Trump lost in a landslide because he is an immoral, delusional clown :) His biggest supporter is a conspiracy nut and a pillow-brained crackhead. What a fucking joke.

[captain_voidwalker]

Honestly you have to be either completely retarded or willfully ignorant to belive the 2020 election wasn't fraudulent. Every mathematical metric says fraud was rampant. And so far the arizona audit has found on average a 17% difference between votes cast and votes counted 100% benefiting Joe biden.
But it dosen't matter the fact is even if the fraud gets proven the courts will do nothing, congress will do nothing and you the people will do nothing. So just enjoy the epic collapse biden is bringing on. In less that 6 months he's crashed the economy and destroyed all of you savings with inflation. Imagine how fucked we all will be in 2024

[Anonymous]

Probably not through voter fraud but it's hard to say. There was definitely fraud and plenty of *impropriety*, but whether it swung the election is difficult to say. On its own, I doubt it was enough. The real swing came from biased media. Media deception turning literally every story into "orange man bad" and opposing any position Trump took just for the sake of being combative and tribal is the major cause.

For example, the biased media didn't cover the Hunter Biden laptop scandal. Polling of Biden voters after the election found that most didn't know about the laptop scandal and many (enough to say that *yes* it would have swung the election) said that they would have voted differently had they known.

[goaded]

The laptop thing was simply far too convenient, especially considering the lengths Trump and Giuliani went to to get Ukraine to make stuff up to interfere with Biden's chances.

Why isn't Giuliani in prison for possessing and trying to sell child pornography, anyway?

[Opinion Owner]

"Too convenient" doesn't make it not real.

[goaded]

Well, the Barr DoJ started an investigation into Republican Matt Gaetz's paying for sex with a minor, but not into Hunter Biden's laptop contents, why is that? Giuliani and Trump are both proven liars, why should anyone ever trust them?

[Opinion Owner]

The Matt Gaetz thing was immediately verified to be false though.

And why should people every trust them? Well clearly by not lying remotely as much as you'd like them to since and email scandal could have swung the election had it been covered more by the media.

[goaded]

"The Matt Gaetz thing was immediately verified to be false though."

No, it absolutely hasn't. The investigation is ongoing, there is a letter by his partner in crime, Joel Greenberg, asking for a pardon from Trump that implicates Gaetz, and he's now also being investigated for obstruction of justice.

www.politico.com/.../gaetz-obstruction-federal-probe-491705

I pointed to this question as an example of the effects of gaslighting; thanks for yet another example.

[Opinion Owner]

@goaded Funny, how there's no charges... HMMM. It's almost like it's nonsense without evidence.
There's more evidence of voter impropriety than there's is against Matt Gaetz, but of course that won't change your mind.

You talk about gaslighting and end up trying to do it yourself with nonsense. When there's no evidence and yet you want to deflect to this nonsense case because you obviously lost the Trump/Biden/Hunter subject. *That* is gaslighting and deflection.

And we can know that because lets assume that Gaetz is guilty of the baseless accusation he's accused of... okay, now what? What the fuck does that have to do with the original point? Nothing. You're going off on some nonsense about Gaetz when the question was about the election and my comment pointed to a poll about the Hunter Biden story. Even IF Gaetz was guilty of anything, it would have fuck all to do with what I was talking about. *That* is how we know you're being cancer.

[goaded]

Considering you outright lied about the investigation of Gaetz (there's literally a confession from his partner: "“On more than one occasion, this individual was involved in sexual activities with several of the other girls, the congressman from Florida’s 1st Congressional District and myself,” Greenberg wrote in reference to the 17-year-old."), and about "the Trump/Biden/Hunter subject", what would be the point of continuing a conversation with you?

[Opinion Owner]

@goaded There's a word for that "confession"; a false accusation. There's no evidence to support it, so that's why we use the term *false*.

"what would be the point of continuing a conversation with you?"
For you? Nothing. You're tribal and looking for a way out of the accusations *that include actual evidence* like a laptop full of pictures. My comment was that there was a poll that illustrated that Biden voters were largely not informed about the Hunter Biden story, and many responded on the poll by saying they would have voted differently at a margin that theoretically could have swung the election. That's not me making anything up or gaslighting or lying. Got a problem? Take it up with the institution conducting the polling. Don't whine to me about a "he said / she said" case to distract from the unpleasantness of substantive evidence and measured reality being in disagreement with you.

[goaded]

Have you seen this "laptop full of pictures"? No.

The word "confession" is exactly right, because it was written as an application for a pardon for the crime, not as an accusation.

[goaded]

"Confession" is exactly the right word for a statement of the crimes he was asking for a pardon for.

[Opinion Owner]

"Have you seen this "laptop full of pictures"?
I've seen the pictures that are on the laptop. Yes.

""Confession" is exactly the right word for a statement of the crimes he was asking for a pardon for."
Yes, that's *his* confession. But you can't "confess" on behalf of other people. Anywhere in it where he said someone else did something illegal, that's called an accusation.

Sometimes it's like you're being stupid on purpose.

[goaded]

OK, say I believe you, was there any child pornography on there? Are you admitting to receiving and viewing child pornography? Or was Tucker Carlson lying about there being some?

See, lying liars don't get the benefit of the doubt on things that would hugely benefit them.

On a related note, you'll accept a newspaper that says "the drive appeared to be authentic and that there were no tell-tale signs of tampering or fabrication," for example, as proof it's real and unmodified, but when the Republican head of the DoJ, on the side that would most benefit from finding some, says they "have not seen fraud on a scale that could have affected a different outcome in the election," that's insufficient to convince you.

The purpose of writing the document was to get a pardon for the confessed crime, not to incriminate Gaetz. That's just a hilarious byproduct.

[Opinion Owner]

@goaded “was there any child pornography on there?
I don’t know, but it wouldn’t surprise me -- a hilarious byproduct, if you will. I was talking about the pictures of the drug use from the laptop that were publicized, that’s *real* evidence. I was talking about the emails to Burisma that came out, that’s *real* evidence, unlike the whole Matt Gaetz nonsense. But that’s a secondary point. My original point doesn’t even need it to be proven, the point is that people *just hearing* about the scandal is the thing that swings the election – and they didn’t. Why? Because the media chose not to report it. If there was anything about Trump Jr doing drugs, obviously they would have been all over it just for the sake of shitting on Trump. That's media bias.

"have not seen fraud on a scale that could have affected a different outcome in the election,"
If you bothered to read what I said before, you’d know I mostly agree with Barr, so check yourself. It’s YOU injecting the “fraud” into everything. I don’t believe there was enough fraud to swing it. I said the media did. So your "gotcha" is a flop.

“The purpose of writing the document was to get a pardon for the confessed crime, not to incriminate Gaetz.”
And that’s still obviously not anything substantively different than an accusation. So why even try to frame it otherwise unless you’re being tribal.

[goaded]

There wasn't any child porn, that was just a Tucker Carlson lie. As far as I know, Hunter Biden has never been elected to office, has he?

Lack of information goes both ways; Trump avoided being impeached for working with Russia in 2016 by people covering up the fact that, as we now know, Manafort repeatedly provided Russian agents with valuable internal polling and campaign strategies. Unless you think it was just for fun and they didn't expect any help from Russia in exchange?

What would have happened if, at the time of the Mueller inquiry, Putin had announced that he'd just been made aware that some low-level intelligence agents had (totally against his wishes and without his knowledge, of course) worked for the Trump campaign? What would Trump have given him to avoid that?

[Opinion Owner]

Let’s face it, there probably was, it’s not Tucker claiming it, it’s the institution that has the laptop in custody claiming it, so I’m would mean toward that being real. But again, not the point. You’re too easily side tracked, so I’m not not going to engaging with you when you try to change topics and dance around.

He avoided being impeached by not colluding. Manafort was feeding intel to the Russians from their campaign. But the entirety of your argument is quid pro quo? He was charged before the conclusion of the muller probe. Obviously their was no evidence to get Trump or else they would have seized on it and proceeded with impeachment.

Again, you dance around. So firstly, That’s not a “lack of information” media bias like I’m talking about. It has nothing to do with my point. And secondly, is not a lack of information full stop if they had the information before the conclusion of the probe.

There’s just no honest conversation with you. I’m just not going to respond unless it’s related directly to my point. Otherwise your waffling will be ignored.

[goaded]

Let's face it, you're just making stuff up. Tucker claimed it, the Daily Mail newspaper that had full access didn't mention it, and they would have. The FBI, which is "the institution that has the laptop in custody" sure as hell isn't saying anything publicly. Did Giuliani claim it (then try to sell it)?

You know what happens in impeachments of Trump; the Republicans in the Senate don't give a toss about actual facts, just power.

[Opinion Owner]

Republicans are too lazy and spineless. They only want power enough power so they can just ignore the people. They’re just superficial resistance to democrats who are insane with power. The establishment altogether doesn’t care about facts. The left is just more aggressive about it.

[JackSmy]

6 months later, and some IDIOT, is still beating this DEAD HORSE!!
FCK TRUMP, HE LOST. BIDEN is going to screw up a lot of things, but Trump was a racist, biased ASSHOLE, and he SCREWED the US, in SOOOOO MANY WAYS!!
Stop posting this stupid crap!!
The Election was Legit, and TRUMP LOST! If he runs again, in 2024, we will SADLY have another 4 years of BIDEN!!
Republicans: Get your SHIT TOGETHER, and get an ADULT, RATIONAL, SANE Candidate for 2024!!!

[Anonymous]

The media kept putting out false stories about him, they pushed SUPER hard for mail in voting; which is different from absentee voting where you request it. While this election was just them sending out tons and tons of mail in votes to people with no way to trace the chain of custody. You had BLM and Antifa going around beating and killing people who tried supporting trump. Making them domestic terrorists. Then there's all the celebrities who have a ton of influence spreading misinformation about trump. Then to top it off, you had the media, twitter and facebook blocking anything bad about Biden and putting false rumors/stories about Trump right on their front pages.

[goaded]

Which states actually implemented mail-in voting where everyone was sent a ballot, do you know?

[DaisyJones]

No! Americans just wanted to try something different, so they voted for a brain-dead moron named Joey.

[Dragonpurple]

I actually heard some crazy guy saying that the election was stolen, and Trump had the evidence... however he couldn't present it because that evidence would then be used to show Trump actually stole it using the same method, back in 2016... thus he couldn't present it.

Not that I believe the guy, I just thought it was a hella funny story.

[TheSpaceGnome]

All presidential elections are decided by electoral college members, all other votes are anywhere between thrown out, "considered when lumped with your district of most of the other people there agree with you", or the result of bribery or hacking


As a result, all presidents who ever got elected while any of that was in place, got elected via voter fraud. This is either most or all presidents.

[Anonymous]

No. Multiple audits and close observation during the election proved repeatedly that he did not. Although Trump was proven to have stolen the election in 2016 by cooperating with a hostile foreign power that rigged the election in his favor, according to the Mueller report and FBI.

www.fbi.gov/.../russian-interference-in-2016-u-s-elections

[Anonymous]

There is absolutely no proof that the election was stolen. It's a bunch of whiners, who can't face the fact of Trump's loss, who promulgate this unfounded conspiracy theory. Trump's people are the actual snowflakes, as Trump's people like to call others.

[AD240pCharlie]

Let's make one thing clear: OF COURSE there was voter fraud involved. There's ALWAYS voter fraud involved. Anyone who thinks that any election is without fraud is naive. However, there is normally a pretty equal amount of voter fraud on each side so it evens itself out, so I don't think the results would've been much different it it wasn't the case.

[crmoore]

I'm sure, just statistically speaking, voter fraud happens in every modern election to some extent (if not all national elections ever). But while I'm not entirely opposed to the idea that it could have been result-changing, I'm more likely to believe that the democrats simply pushed politically uninitiated people to vote, insisting that Trump is a horrible, racist, misogynistic, ableist, disinfectant-injecting, nazi-loving, white supremacist.

[888theGreat]

They switched names , so 60 to 40 Trump became 60 to 40 Biden. They also added fake ballots after they shut things down when Republicans left, and they would not let Republicans see what they were doing. Even some Democrats said they were doing things they shouldn't.