This is a one in a million accident. It had nothing to do with the PROP GUN. It had to do with the PROPERTY MASTERS: the gun experts on set. THEY should go to jail for negligent manslaughter. Baldwin, I believe, since he is the producer of this film and has the deep pockets, will be sued for hiring them and will have to pay millions to the family. I HOPE he has already settled out of court with the family. THAT would be honorable on his part. These were NOT people with mental illnesses, wayward teens looking for a thrill, depressed people who wanted to take out others before they killed themselves or schizophrenics. They weren't 61 year old gamblers in a hotel room in Las Vegas who decided to kill country music concertgoers for reasons no one has discovered out to this day. They weren't a white adolescent who decided to kill black church people in a basement because he hated blacks. They weren't a vigilante out to prove his manhood at a protest by "protecting" people. He had "no intention" to kill anyone. Well, if you go to a peaceful protest with a gun, what precisely IS your intention?These men were professional gun handlers whose job is was to safely deliver unloaded guns to be used on a movie set. But THEY WERE PLAYING WITH THE GUNS WITH REAL BULLETS and forgot to empty them after their gun party. They should be put under the jail. There's no excuse for lapses that caused such injuries and a death. They should serve jail time and NEVER be allowed in their FORMER profession again. But this has nothing to do with the use of prop guns. It is all about the use of IMPROPER people.
But the flip side of this? Gun law restrictions. All of the people who've killed people with guns were legal gun owners or obtained the guns from families who did not lock their guns away from minors. We cannot restrict guns from legal gun owners who've done nothing illegal because of a minority of people who've used their legally owned gunned illegally. Do we restrict car use because of the several incidents where drivers drove into crowds and killed people at protests on purpose? What about all the DUI deaths caused by drunk drivers? We have laws in place to restrict and punish these people. They cannot catch everyone. We can ban cars and alcohol and guns and other freedoms to clean up vices. But this is a country founded on freedoms. Freedoms and responsibility. Both go hand in hand.
Thank you for the MHA.
By the way in germany 15 millions guns are owned illegal, while 1 million is legal. So it is way easier to get illegal gun.
In austria 8 million people live and one million people own guns according to statistics and nothing bad happened so far i know
You Germans actually have quite the regs on guns. I actually like them. “Personal aptitude” would rule out half the US population right there.www.dw.com/.../a-52450664
The girl that was in charge expressed to the director that she didn't feel comfortable being responsible for the arsenal. Also it comes down to Alec Baldwin that he ignorant of basic firearm safety rules. He is ignorant of them because he is an anti-gunner but wants to make money using them in movies. Now he has killed someone, if he would had followed the firearm safety rules he wouldn't had killed anyone. If your handed a gun it is your responsibility to clear the gun yourself, doesn't matter what the other person says its safe.
@Amur8711 hate defending a hollywood asshole but he was given a “cold gun” by the film crew’s weapons guy. Apparently some live rounds got mixed up with blanks. So aside from any “insurance or producing” issues he might face, the actual act seems blameless on his part.
No, firearm safety rules are, when you are handed a gun and are told its a "cold gun" or unloaded. Its your responsibility to check it yourself. That has always been a rule. The number one rule of firearm safety is treate every firearm as if its loaded. Alec Baldwin was the last line of defense in firearm safety, because of him being anti-gun he refused to learn proper firearm safety and if he knew them then he chose to ignore it. It isn't just his fault all in charge of the movie and the prop master is to blame, but Baldwin chose not to follow firearm safety rules.
The firearms safety people who are familiar with ALL the firearms on the set, are responsible for the gun safety on set. That is what Baldwin is paying them for. All this "every gun is treated as loaded" crap is for people who are gun owners and users, which I am. And I'm as liberal as all get-out. Baldwin did not cause this woman's death. He relied on safety personnel, which I TOO would've done because I have no experience with handguns and certainly not 19th century style Colts. So I couldn't have "cleared" it in any case.Being the PRODUCER of this film, however, does give him the "deep pockets," and though those idiots who were the arsenal pros were the direct cause, Baldwin will somehow be blamed because he hired shoddy craftsmen. They will likely have some jail time because of their negligence. Baldwin will likely be out MILLIONS of dollars due to this woman's death because he's the top of the food chain.But isn't this sad? Negligent death. Because some yahoos were shooting guns off during the filming "for fun." That's the story I've heard. And THEY didn't clear the chamber after their "play."
Police found live rounds mixed with blanks. It’s not Baldwin’s responsibility to know the difference.There shouldn’t be live bullets within miles of a film set.
Scroll Down to Read Other Opinions
I guess I see other industrialized countries with 150 murders and suicides per year. And US at 30,000.
The screwed up thing is that if someone has a overwhelming urge to do something or get something their is a chance that they will find a way to satisfy that urge. Even if doing so can lead them to some kind of punishment. Also a a overwhelming urge isn't something that should be stripped away no matter what it causes a individual to do. Because if it was not for overwhelming urges and the need to satisfy them early humans would have probably died off. Also many thing would have never been created.
@OddBeMe Exactly NONE of those other countries have anything close to the same set of circumstances as the US. They have neither the overall population, nothing close to the amount of immigration (legal and otherwise), or the competing ethnicities, cultures, and socio-economic classes that the US does - nor do they have the drug and gang problems of the US. That's why such comparisons are pointless.
@MrOracle China doesn’t have our population? You gun nuts reach for the thinnest straws.
China is a virtual monoculture and the people have very few rights. Again, not even remotely comparable. People in China are executed for "thought crimes", and the government has a complete monopoly on guns.
@MrOracle looking at per 100,000 people, stats can be compared between the US and Australia for example.
Of course you can compare rates, but, again, Australia's situation isn't remotely similar to the US's. Australia has very little immigration, and what there is mostly comes from crown countries who share a very similar culture already. There's not a drug war. There's not abandoned industrial cities full of blight. There's not a history of slavery, and 100 years of "Jim Crow" laws. There's simply no other country that faces the challenges that the US faces.And, still, the VAST majority of gun violence is gang-on-gang violence. That doesn't make the deaths less tragic, and certainly innocent people sometimes get caught in that too, which is awful, but if you avoid about 10 known gang hotspots - and we aren't talking about entire cities, but specific districts within them - then the US is an extremely safe place to be. An average person is far more likely to face violence in the UK than in the US, for example. It might not involve a gun, but being stabbed with a knife or having your skull cracked open with a baseball bat (the two most popular weapons in the UK) isn't likely to matter a lot to you.You also have to understand how stats are collected. In the US, a crime that is reported and verified via investigation is counted as a crime, even without an arrest or suspect.. In the UK, a crime is only counted if there is a court conviction for a specific suspect. If a criminal in the UK kills 10 people over the years, and rapes 10 women, but the police have no idea who it is, then those 20 capital crimes aren't considered to have taken place with regards to how the UK reports crimes.If US standards for crime were used worldwide, you'd have VERY different statistics. The US might still lead on gun crime, but you'd see a very different picture in overall violent crime.
@MrOracle yeah…former British colony, large open plains with farming and cattle ranches, indigenous population massacred throughout history. Wait which one am I referring…
you dont need a gun to stop that... all a single person needed to do is stop filming/taking photos and call the cops
@jspl90 Thousands upon thousands of criminals... almost all are getting a gun... or guns and they shoot people all the time. What do you have to stop that... or slow it down?
Well I dont mind if some takes out a gun and shoots some violent criminal about to do violent crimes but if you miss and kill a bystander then you should be prosecuted for at least manslaughter
That’s unrealistic. More people in your country kill with items other than guns. Better look up the crime statistics rather than relying on fabrication to support feelings on that one. I’m from the UK Where we can’t own guns and only criminals get them.
Treat a prop gun the exact same Way!
Same with vaccinations. Let people decide freely. Those that are wrong will be sorted out by death.
Yeah I read this too. I can tell you film crews aren’t as regulated as they should be.
So, it turns out that the production was allowing people to use these same guns with live ammo for target practice in between shots. That is an INSANE practice that is normally strictly prohibited for exactly this reason. And the assistant director of this movie (Rust) had been fired previously from another movie for having an ND (negligent discharge) on THAT set, so there's already a history of problems with him. The armorer is new to the job with only one previous credit, and it seems she didn't have the will to enforce safety standards.There are a LOT of people who are going to get sued, and there's a real possibility of criminal charges.
@MrOracle Thank you, you definitely deserve best answer for this. The gun had misfired previously, there were people in key roles (Armorer, 1st AD) who flagrantly ignored critical safety protocols. 6 million production with 1 million going to Baldwin. He also ignored the safety issues and should be punished appropriately.
Really good question to throw out and debate
You touched upon some key arguments here. Most people don't understand that the 2nd amendment right to bear arms is no more absolute than the first amendment right to free speech. With rights comes the responsibility to exercise them in a manner that takes the rights of others into consideration.
I'm fairly certain that the numbers you've presented are actually conservative estimates, and the real figures are much higher. Let us take into account that not every incident is reported. :)
most of those deaths are from suicide, and gang banger that bought a stolen gun.
So devils advocate…go the other way and take out regs for cars, like seatbelts. Think car deaths would shoot up? (Pun intended)
Ok ima try to answer all of you in 1 post read if you want to continue @lohrvsdataohrvsdata traffic death are always reported gun deaths are more vague given the fact that the CDC doesn’t list the reason for the gun death @beefy40yea most of it is suicide car accidents usually tend to be from distractions like texting on your phone or people being too drunk or being impatient and trying to pass somebody and getting into a head on collision@OddBeMe that would be an interesting thing to look at Europe has a lot less traffic death because it’s common practice to wear a seat belt there a planet money podcast produces by NPR that talks about the difference between European and American traffic laws people in America are far less likely to wear a seat belt so more Americans die in car accidents then Europeans Americans are also a lot more aggressive drivers so that factors in. As far as suicide rates goes Europe has a higher suicide rate when it comes to pills and other means of suicide than Americans Americans like to get it over quickly and just shoot themselves in the head which is where most of gun deaths come from
True. But I guess like the gun issue, enforcement is the problem.
@OddBeMe yeah enforcement by the director, in this case they were being cheap and in this case didn't care. So its Baldwin's and the directors fault.
Everyone will be on the hook for negligence and wrongful death. The production company for not hiring competent people. The props manager and armorer for not making sure the weapons were safe, which is their job. The producer who falsely told Baldwin the weapon was safe, and probably Baldwin himself for not double checking it. In today’s world where they could CGI the muzzle flash on a prop gun, it makes you wonder why they’re still making films this way.
That’s an interesting point. Why don’t think the govt is your “friend”? We vote those people in office.
> We vote those people in office.lol, lmao, kekNow, come on, be serious.Just because some people vote for someone, don't mean that that someone should be able to make laws that restrict our rights. And that's assuming that 'we' are really the one's who choose. Personally, I don't know what's worse, an organized cabal of criminals who call themselves Democrats or Republicans that are possibly rigging the election every time, making it only look like 'we' have a choice, or a scenario in which we genuinely can vote for whomever we please, and yet most of us still vote for either of these worthless shitstains because we're too stupid and tribal to see that they're fucking over the country.
But what if we had less guns? Would that mean less gun violence?
@OddBeMe not at all. The less guns there are then all the criminals that know how to get them will have them a d the average person will be unarmed unable to defend them selves. Please don't say that's what we have the police for because we all know that they are really no help in the actual moment you have to defend your life. More responsible and educated gun owners need to be armed.
Watch that clip it will help reenforce my argument
Less guns would mean the black market price for guns would shoot up, right? Simple economics.
Yeah that episode actually proved my point. But the blackmarket prices would skyrocket if we had more gun bans. Means less criminals would have them. You know…like the rest of the civilized world.
Yeah, prob right. So more enforcement!
I wondered that too. I think it was a real gun for authenticity that was supposed to have blanks.
So how is it any different than if my friend bubba says his guns unloaded and i aim it at john and pull the trigger and it was loaded and kills him? Thats a criminal charge.