Is there really a difference?

[msc545]

1. Russian troops walk up to you, shoot you in the head, and leave your body lying in the street.

2. A US drone cruising at 30,000 feet shoots a Hellfire missile which blows you to pieces as you walk down the street.

Is there any important difference?

Updates

+1 y

So when the US does it, it's ok and we make lots of excuses as to why. When the Russians do it, it is not ok and they are war criminals.

Updates

+1 y

I guess I should have been more granular when I ask this question to begin with. When I really am asking here is are there any moral differences between the two acts I've described? I know there are physical differences and that is not what I am asking about it all for very obvious reasons. We can all figure this out without too much help. It is the moral differences in your perception of the moral difference is that I am concerned with.

[lightbulb27]

Terrible for those Ukrainians paying the price, I've seen the videos of grandmas living through that hell... some of them survived WWII to deal with this. Unreal. And to see them be as "patient" as they are, unreal.
that aside.


yes, the 1st one has a lot more emotion to it on both sides, even if emotion is repressed by the soldier, they will remember it. The person killed doesn't die immediately and experiences reality of terror for the time up to loss of consciousness while they bleed out... not to mention the other people around they see being executed first and the heartless humans who care not for them.

the 2nd one doesn't have the awareness, since don't know it's coming, and probably die instant (depends). Less emotion, unless see similiar. The person firing it may not know the impact it had on life, they can be oblivious from a distance.

It's all sick. Humans have not evolved emotionally, compassionately, beyond our selfishness and ego... only technically advanced. No wonder, we don't practice it... we practice the opposite.

[t-8900]

Don't forget we contributed to genocide in Yemen. The American gov is an enemy to humanity, not an ally

[msc545]

very correct.

[Stupidsigninpage]

If that's true, then I gained a little hope for the US.

[Levin]

You make a very good point.

The hypocrisy is real.

I find it funny all this talk of war crimes of late.

Aren't all wars essentially crimes against the people? Is there ever justification to shoot someone or bomb someone, unless it's a genuine self defense situation. And don't the common soldiery share responsibility for carrying out these orders?

It's all very primitive. Humanity needs to wake up and take a long hard look at itself. From all angles. Not just in a superficial way.

[RealMarek]

The difference is that it isn’t really happening when we do it. Before you object, let me assure you that I have assurances from our leaders and media that this is so. They have said repeatedly that the Ukraine War is the first war in Europe since WW2. This means when we pushed the former Yugoslavia into war (Tony Blair had a lot to do with it) and bombed military and civilian targets in Serbia, it was all a sort of fiction that we are told didn’t really happen or, at least, matter enough to remember. So when the US fights, it is forgotten. When someone stands up to US geopolitical meddling, they are the reincarnation of Hitler.

[Anonymous]

The difference:

#1 We must believe that it's genocide and a war crime since our neoliberal narrative elected Russians as eternal villains.

#2 We must believe that the person who died it's a terrorist, since the US is good and democratic, so it only kills terrorists, but if the person was a civilian, then its just an innocent mistake on the US military part. Anyway, these victims are likely brown people, so they aren't even human beings according to our Western mindset and we shouldn't worry about them.

[msc545]

Yes exactly. Plus we are a supposedly a democracy so all that we do is godly and good.

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

The difference is that one is happening now and the other isn't.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/E-Dr1JjghQs

Not that what happened in the past is irrelevant but what's going on now is way more important.

[OddBeMe]

Not to me personally.

But I guess legally speaking Bush and Obama could bring up the terrorists they were targeting and say the bystanders knew who they were with.

And Russian troops just rape and pillage through towns so def a difference…

[goaded]

Yes. The drone pilots are more like the Russians firing artillery from a distance. The killings are up close and personal, and reportedly include prolonged suffering including rape and dismemberment.

[msc545]

I am surprised that you're making this distinction. It almost seems like you were saying that killing people from a distance is okay but doing it up close and personal is not. I'm thinking about this and I really have trouble believing that you actually think this is okay. It seems completely out of character for you.

[goaded]

I think if I'm going to be killed by someone, I'd rather they didn't rape and dismember me first. Is that so odd?

[msc545]

No, I don't think it's out at all but I also don't think the Russian troops are doing those things to people. I also think that for some odd reason you're splitting hairs here. If somebody's blown to Pieces by a missile are they killed by being shot in the head from 5 feet away they are still quite dead and their relatives still have to contend with the grief that follows the death of a loved one. Either way, it's bad, and no amount of rationalization makes it better as I'm sure you already know.

[goaded]

Well, as long as you don't think it's happening, I'm sure that's OK.

The Russians have been told that Ukraine is being run by Nazis with the support of the whole civilian population of Ukraine. Why do you think they would be gentle?

A car crash can kill you. Is that just as bad as someone choosing to torture and kill you? It certainly isn't to me, and it wouldn't be if it happened to someone I love.

[Soteris]

Actually yes, one is direct and the other is indirect. You can make a lot of arguments for why the drone pilot might misidentify a target where as that is very hard to do face to face.

On a broader scale it is also in completely different contexts. USA did a lot of terrible things around the world but compared to that Russia is doing it at a systematic scale in Ukraine (and other places). That is the difference between USA doing murders and Russia doing ethnic cleansing.

[msc545]

Do you think that organized ("systematic") killing is what is happening? Do you think that murder and "ethnic cleansing" are different in some way?

[msc545]

Do you think that Russian troops identify people before they kill them and drone pilots can not?

[Soteris]

Yes, they are different. American drone pilots are just analyzing targets to identify them as hostile or not. Its their lack of information or low bar of proof that is the problem. Russia is not doing this due to faulty identification, they are explicitly targeting people and one of the main criteria is non ethnic Russians. As they intend to incorporate part of Ukraine into Russia they are removing people they consider "foreign" for both ideological reasons and also because they can't incorporate other groups of people (hence the resistance in the first place).

They are going about this in both the force deportation route and also evidently mass killings as evidence are showing. Furthermore this also comes down to Russia putting out anti Ukrainian propaganda which fuels personal violence against civilians even without strict state action. Soldiers are taking it upon themselves to abuse and kill Ukrainian civilians.

So yeah, there is a world of difference between what USA did and what Russia is doing.

[msc545]

How do you have so much knowledge about what Russian troops and Russia itself are thinking and doing? Are you a Russian soldier or politician or? Similarly, how would you know what drone pilots do or do not do or think?

[Soteris]

Because the Russian invasion of Ukraine is the most well documented conflict in the history of our world and because I have looked into the problems with drones previously.

[msc545]

Right. How many drone Pilots have you spoken to? I'm going to assume that many since you don't even know that a drone pilot doesn't Target anything. That is done by somebody else. He just flies the damn thing. I've talked to a lot of people that have been drone pilots since I take care of veterans and you're completely wrong about your assumptions.

[Soteris]

What are you even talking about? Its the drone pilots that are actually the ones who flies the drones and pushes the buttons to fire unless they are acting as observation or target guidance.

[msc545]

Nope. Try again.

[Soteris]

... I mean, what possible reason would they NOT be? They are sitting in a drone pod in the middle of nowhere. They are the ones who is in connection with the drone and any weapon systems it is carrying. Why on earth would they have some random asshole somewhere else pushing the launch button?

[msc545]

A "drone pod". Stop watching science fiction.

[msc545]

Find out what a "sensor operator" does.

[Soteris]

What about them?

[ohshee]

Yes one is with the war already established the other one is action for war because for a bigger War

[JohnK123]

The US has a reason ie. The Iranian general
but Russian troops are more than a single drone and kill innocent lives for no reason

[Twalli]

Yes. Your body isn't in one piece with the hellfire missile

[msc545]

Well I have to agree you have a point there but other than making the funeral a lot more difficult I can't see that it makes much difference.

[Anonymous]

There is a pretty big difference but I can tell you’re on your soapbox so go ahead with your sermon.

[msc545]

I'm not on the soap box right now at all. It feels like I'm standing on Solid Ground actually. I'm just objecting to the idea that when the US does something everybody makes excuses for the really horrible things that occur when the Russians do it becomes war crimes time. I would argue that what the Russians do and what the US does are both war crimes and Both Deserve The opprobrium of the entire world.

[NathanDavis]

yes... the one writing the narrative

[Stupidsigninpage]

No, it's not a difference if you're a beta male who hates your own country.

[msc545]

Let me make sure I understand. When your own country commits genocide and war crimes you are fine with that because Murica, but if the Russians do it they are criminals, right, chump?

[Stupidsigninpage]

Yep. As long as my country enslaves and steal resources and it benefits my country, I am fine with it. If it's Russia doing it, competing against us, I am opposed to it.

[Stupidsigninpage]

Russians love to pull that 'But But, Merica war crimes cars' when they do the same thing, but do I really give a crap? Nah. Putin doesn't give a crap either. Smart man.

[msc545]

Well, at least we all know what and who you are.

[Fuentes]

All the same warfare