Do you agree that abortions are not healthcare?

[msc545]

They are executions in which the condemned has his legs and arms torn off with surgical tools, and his skull crushed. How is that healthcare?

[Anonymous]

@subaru girl but i bet if we allowed for abortions only for life threatening emergencies to the women you'd try to concoct another excuse to still leave abortion in place. Face it, it's for sluts roughly 98% of the time. Most get it for convenience. I say those people should face harsh punishments. 10+ years in jail and 1,000 hours community service. This is just about sluts wanting to be sluts without consequences. Such sluts imho have no value for society and they are just as much scum as the men on death row as we speak. If they die in a botched abortion it would be some level of justice. The only victim would be the baby, the mother would be useless. I believe a person's life does have meaning, till they take a life for any reason other than self defense or to save other lives from harm of a violent/wicked person.

[Dargil]

They are infanticide.

[msc545]

Abortions are executions in which the legs and arms are torn off with surgical tools, and the skull is crushed.

[msc545]

@Subarugirl Playing semantic games does not change reality.

[Dargil]

@Subarugirl A conceived human is not a blob of protoplasm. It is a sovereign human with its own unique DNA. It will soon have a heartbeat and brainwaves before some ghoul sucks its brain out.

[msc545]

By calling unborn babies "blobs" or "a few cells", women dehumanize them to make it psychologically easier to tear them apart and kill them.

[Dargil]

It is to rationalize irresponsible behavior.

[Subarugirl]

And what about the responsibility of the father hmm? After all his sperm is what conceived the fetus.

[Dargil]

@Subarugirl That is not the baby's fault. Why not just keep your knees together?

[Subarugirl]

Why don’t men control where they put their penises?

[Screamsgutter]

@Subarugirl Because it all depends on you to accept sexual advances, not him. Whether he's wearing a condom or not is pretty easy to verify by the lady in the room, isn't it? Or doesn't the light work?

It's her body, so obviously no one's gonna care about it more than her. To put it bluntly, a man isn't under any obligation to care about the body of the women at hand, especially if they're basically strangers. If she's the gatekeeper to sex, what do you think he's doing? Hanging around until she voluntarily holds the gate open to allow him entry through it. He strolls through. If she doesn't bother checking his condom supply and if he embraces it as he sashays through, then that's the danger she made for herself. Maybe he looks back, maybe he doesn't? Does he have to. Truthfully, no. That's not to say he isn't at the very least an idiot should he want to risk both pregnancy and std contraction. Her, too.

It seems like nine times out of ten, pregnancy arguments start and stop at blaming guys and their whopping one form of contraception when women have, I dunno, ten? Eleven? Yet somehow they still have a hard time avoiding pregnancy. Then the option to opt out of motherhood if she actually has the kid is always on the table.

Regardless, for the overall consensual encounter to happen at all is her call, no one else.

[Subarugirl]

@Screamsgutter but it’s not about here though, not according to you, it’s about the fetus, so if you’re talking about responsibility, the two people who created that fetus should be equally responsible

[msc545]

@Subarugirl Right. Men do not arrange to have abortions - women do.

[Subarugirl]

It's not the man's health or life in jeopardy.

[Screamsgutter]

@Subarugirl I'm talking about if a woman uses one of her many contraception options = no conception, therefore no baby to abort. It's her body, therefore her responsibility.

Scenario: two strangers embark on a one-night stand and go to a hotel or to her house (I wouldn't suggest that he bring her to his place). They do the deed. He leaves early to go to work or whatever without waking her up, nor does he leave a phone number. Next thing she knows she's pregnant and has no idea where to find this guy or how to get in touch with him. She wouldn't even know his last name. So now what? Well, if she used contraception prior to the deed, this wouldn't be happening.

[Subarugirl]

@Screamsgutter birth control is not 100% effective. Plan B is only effective if you weigh less than 165 lbs. not to mention life threatening sideffects of birth control like cams, strokes and heart attacks. I was on birth control when I got pregnant at 19 years old.

[msc545]

@Subarugirl The father is not responsible for the decision to kill the baby, nor does he kill the baby himself or contract with and pay others to do it. The mother does all of that.

[Subarugirl]

The father doesn’t have to sacrifice his body, heath or life to grow a baby… try again

[msc545]

@Subarugirl Untrue. We sacrifice our bodies working overtime for 18 years to pay you child support for children you unilaterally decided to have and make our problem.

[Snsl153]

"Healthcare". Health-CARE, they call it. Because, you know, killing someone is just such a caring thing to do. How very Orwellian.

[Dargil]

I doubt she knows who Orwell is. Womyn's Studies major, most likely. And she wants you to may off her student loans.

[Dargil]

pay off

[Anonymous]

When the penalty for aborting after rape is more severe than the penalty for rape, that's when you know it's a war on women.

[msc545]

Penalties for murder are traditionally more than those for rape.

[goaded]

Chestnut

Tree

Zygote

Baby

[Snsl153]

external-content.duckduckgo.com/.../
Also a baby, but one that is yet to be born.

[goaded]

@Snsl153 Nope, still a fetus (or a stylised picture of one). Possibly even a viable one, in which case it doesn't fall under Roe.

It's possible to have reasonable discussions about at what stage a fetus becomes a person, but not if one side is just going to lie about the facts. Or perjure themselves to get onto the supreme court in order to overturn settled law supported by 70% of the country.

Florida: "57% of respondents either somewhat disapproved or strongly disapproved of the bill banning abortion after 15 weeks of pregnancy." floridapolitics.com/.../

Oklahoma: "The law requires women to undergo an ultrasound and listen to a detailed description of the fetus before getting abortions. Results show that 52.6 percent of Oklahomans support both aspects of the law." (It's reasonable to expect that a lower percentage want to ban abortions altogether.) www.soonerpoll.com/.../abortion-remains-a-polarizing-issue-in-oklahoma112

[Snsl153]

"... lie about the facts" - Well, that's not something the pro-life people do, that's for sure.

[goaded]

@Snsl153 This question is one, for a start. Taking a couple of pills to induce a miscarriage is nothing like what's described.

[Screamsgutter]

Instead of arguing the point at which a pregnancy becomes conscious or self-aware and each claiming the other doesn't know what it's talking about, why don't we just acknowledge that the only true answer is the one that can't be disputed - it's impossible for a pregnancy to have such qualities prior to actual conception (no conception = no pregnancy = no life), but at the very least it is possible for a pregnancy to have such qualities the very second after conception (conception = pregnancy = life) occurs.

How can it be denied that it's safest to say the earliest time a pregnancy could possess all the qualities being argued about is the very second after conception. Why assume anything else? When in doubt, go with the earliest possible time of development.

[goaded]

@Screamsgutter Because it's wrong to say a fertilised egg is a person and pretending that that's a reasonable position leads to massive suffering of large numbers of living, breathing women.

[lightbulb27]

agree.
Its like "putting our pet to sleep". Its using language to make us feel better.
"I didn't shoot him, I discharged my weapon!"

It's executing a helpless unborn human.

[DaveToo]

Pro-lifers use this kind of rhetoric against women, when in fact, abortions are usually performed long before there is the viable formation of the fetus.

[abc3643]

Well, my wife had her breasts "torn off" with surgical tools and it was definitely healthcare because she is still alive because of it.

[Slartybartfast]

No, that's absurd. Women die from ectopic pregnancies.

[OddBeMe]

No it’s healthcare. A doctor is involved, medical procedure is involved.

[Snsl153]

Right, so you could be someone like Dr. Mengele at Auschwitz performing medical experiments upon prisoners, and you would see this as being "healthcare". Well, with "care" like that, we can all be thankful that we can all opt out of it while we still have the choice available to us (which may not be for much longer if the radical left get their way, and they decide we all need to be microchipped for "our own good", like they already are in Sweden).

[OddBeMe]

@Snsl153 same as American doctors in the Tuskegee experiments illegally giving blacks syphillis.

Just because it’s immoral or illegal doesn’t mean it’s not “medical”. But I guess weee fighting over semantics.

Does being a medical procedure change your view on abortion?

[Snsl153]

You equate healthCARE with "medical procedure". The two are clearly not synonymous.

[OddBeMe]

@Snsl153 ok. Jesus. Like I said, semantics. But abortion is healthcare.

[Snsl153]

"Just semantics", you say. Of course, because how we use words just doesn't matter at all, so it isn't a problem when we dehumanise others we think of as being inferior or disposable or inconvenient. What could possibly go wrong?

[OddBeMe]

@Snsl153 didn’t say that. But you’re taking context from a word’s usage. Some guy giving a chick abortion in a back alley is not healthcare. A woman going to a doctor for a medical procedure…sounds like healthcare to me.

[Snsl153]

You did say that though. "Just semantics". Your words, not mine.

[Snsl153]

Let's discuss semantics, because I'm in the mood to :)
What does the term "healthcare" directly imply, if not actually mean? A person who is being looked after, who is being encouraged to do that which will be conducive to their recovery from an illness, is undergoing medical treatment that is enhancing their chances at living beyond the term they would otherwise live if they had not received the treatment.
"Care" is, according to the dictionary,
"A concerned or troubled state of mind, as that arising from serious responsibility; worry.
An object or source of worry, attention, or solicitude.
Interest, regard, or liking."
Source: The American Heritage Dictionary, 5th edition.
Now, it could be, and has been, argued that since the mother's needs at the time are being attended to, this is all that's required for it to constitute "healthcare", but... what about the other person (yes, person - the question of personhood is something I may have to do a MyTake on) in the room (or womb)?
Why is it okay to kill a "fetus" prior to nine months? Why that specific length of time, even though we all know that premature babies usually survive, and they're fully formed and clearly human in appearance, and not just a "clump of cells"?

[OddBeMe]

@Snsl153 agreed. I’d say healthcare is about wellness of the patient. Doctors Hippocratic oath.

And just because I say whether “abortion is healthcare” is semantics doesn’t make it less of an issue.

[msc545]

Deliberate death is the outcome. Doctors and medical procedures are also involved in judicial executions. That does not make them healthcare procedures.

[msc545]

These arguments about fetus vs. Baby and healthcare vs execution to describe abortions are a waste of time.

You can call it a fetus or an embryo or tissue all you want if it makes you feel better, and refer to an abortion as healthcare all you want, but we all know what it really is - the premeditated killing of a human baby. No way around that. If you are un favor of it call it what it really is.

[msc545]

In favor

[OddBeMe]

You’re right that those arguments are meaningless. It all falls to bodily autonomy. Why would you give a fetus more rights than you or I have?

Like I asked Sns, anti-abortion is in principle, exactly like a law forcing you to donate organs to a dying child. That, I assume you’d be against.

[msc545]

Why would you give an unborn child fewer rights? Pregnancy does not involve any organ donation. It involves 9 months of inconvenience.

[msc545]

The child only dies when the woman kills it or it dies a natural death. Abortion is execution.

[OddBeMe]

Wow totally missing the point. But so has all anti-abortionists. Because you’re emotional.

Do me a favor, we talking about law. Try to be emotionless, or at least clear headed.

The government and bodily autonomy. You want to force a woman to take a pregnancy to term. That’s exactly like forcing men to donate an organ to a dying kid…logically or philosophically. A child is at stake, but so is bodily autonomy. See?

[Screamsgutter]

When the woman did the deed with the guy and neither used contraception, she's well aware that 99% of the time the result will be pregnancy. Being irresponsible and ignoring every precaution that would've solved this problem from the get-go shouldn't be rewarded with abortion. Am I supposed to feel sorry for a woman who didn't use birth control and now has to carry the child to term? No. She's living with the result from her action.

[OddBeMe]

@Screamsgutter actually that’s not the percentage. And Catholics actually demand you don’t use contraception and only have sex when she’s not ovulating.

But again, none of this matters as that’s each persons private life. So get the fck out of it.

[Screamsgutter]

So what is the percentage then? Catholics, eh? My mother went to Catholic school until she reached high school, which was during a time when the nuns were still allowed to reprimand students through violence (hitting on the knuckles with rulers to simply smacking them) - great... sign me up. At one time they also demanded each household of the parish (should) donate 10% of their earnings to the church.

Unless things have changed since I was a kid and was forced to go to church most Sundays with my mother (my father wasn't into it, but my brother and I going with her made her happy, so he told us to do it) as well as waste an hour each week attending catechism, the majority of Catholics don't follow the religion to a tee, especially when it comes to sex, and never stopped doing all sorts of things/acting in all kinds of ways that are hypocritical to their supposed 'beliefs'. And as far as teenagers go... c'mon.

And as long as any taxes I pay go toward any component of abortion, I will stay the fck in it.

[Juxtapose]

It's obviously healthcare for the woman because she has a parasite growing inside of her she wants to get rid of.

[Anonymous]

and the fallen angel kasdeja taught the art of abortion

[Subarugirl]

Abortions are a part of reproductive health care.

[msc545]

Executions are not health care. Health care is designed to maintain or restore health. Executions are designed to cause death.

[Subarugirl]

So the fact that maternity death rates due to pregnancy and childbirth are higher in the United States than just about anywhere else… educate yourself before making uneducated statements

[Dargil]

"educate yourself before making uneducated statements"
How does that relate to executing an infant in the womb?

[Subarugirl]

@Dargil maybe retake biology there is a difference between an infant and a fetus honey. Take a class or something

[msc545]

What precisely do you think the difference is?

[msc545]

Comon honey... tell us the difference.

[Subarugirl]

The stage of development. You don’t call a caterpillar a butterfly. It starts out with the germinal stage, then embryonic, then fetal stage. The earliest recorded time frame for fetal survival outside the womb is 21 weeks gestation. 89% of abortions occur during the first trimester of pregnancy, which is before 12 weeks. 25% of pregnancies end in spontaneous abortions, often before the woman even knows she’s pregnant. Did you know that the Christian Bible even lays out how to perform an abortion ritual in Number 5:11-31.

[msc545]

So it turns out that a fetus (which is a developmental stage) develops into a child which is a person, assuming it isn't killed by someone like you. What is it that you think gives you the right to kill another person?

[Subarugirl]

Are you familiar with the concept of bodily autonomy? If someone needed a kidney, no one can force you to give them that kidney. Bodily autonomy says that no person can be forced to risk their own life, their own health, or give up their body to save the life of another person. We can't even take organs from corpses, unless there was prior consent for that exact reason. A fetus cannot survive, even if you consider it a whole separate life, with out the bodily sacrifice of the mother. As such you cannot force that woman to risk her own life, he own health or her own body for that fetus, any more than you can force someone to donate any of their body parts.

[Dargil]

Word salads about what you think people know or don't know are a weak defense.

[Subarugirl]

@Dargil So you are totally okay with being forced to sacrifice your body for someone else.

[Dargil]

Honey. I am armed, but I would take a bullet for my baby boy.

[Subarugirl]

@Dargil That's not the question, but nice try trying to deflect.. So you are totally okay with being forced to sacrifice your body for someone else?

[msc545]

Actually, with the demise of Roe v Wade, women *can* be required to not murder their children.

[Subarugirl]

I think what you meant to say is they that will be required to sacrifice their organs, health, body, and even their lives.

[Subarugirl]

Are you okay with being forced to sacrificed you body parts, health and even your life against your will?

[Screamsgutter]

Hey, use (female) contraception and you won't have to sacrifice anything.

[Subarugirl]

@Screamsgutter are you familiar with contraceptive side effects, like heart attacks, strokes, blood clots, depression, and cancer? Or do those not matter?

[msc545]

Try an IUD, and stop whining.

[Screamsgutter]

Every commercial for something quasi-medical on tv spends half of its time listing every side-effect in the book, including most of these, even if it's a stupid antacid, so I'm not surprised those are listed as side-effects here either. They're also usually the rarest of the side-effects which manage to find their way to the forefront of arguments when someone wants to show the worst possibilities despite being very rare occurrences.

[Subarugirl]

Imagine having your cervix pierced with a sharp tool used to hold it in place while a piece of plastic is forced up into your uterus without any sort of numbing agent. Irregular bleeding is common for 6 months to a year, along with mood changes, head aches, weight gain and depression. Then you have this string that comes through the cervix and just hangs in you vaginal canal. To have it removed they have to rip it out of your body. If you happen to get pregnant while you are on it, there is a higher chance of it being a ectopic pregnancy which is a non viable pregnancy which is a death sentence …. Unless the embryo is removed.

[msc545]

Your capacity for needless drama is really impressive.

[Subarugirl]

You mean by talking about the procedure you just told me to get? Well someone has to educate you since you obviously have very little knowledge on the topic

[msc545]

Your dramatic and inappropriate use of adjectives is pathetic.

[Subarugirl]

I agree the procedure is dramatic. Is that something that you would want to get?

[msc545]

Have you ever seen it done or do you just enjoy drama?

[Subarugirl]

I was considering getting one but after a conversation with my OBGYN about what the procedure consisted of, and weighed the benefits and risks, I decided against it. I made sure that I was very informed on which forms of birth that were available to me. How much do you know about birthcontrol? Did you know that certain states are trying to ban certain forms of birthcontrol like the IUD?

[Screamsgutter]

If all of womens' current choices of contraception are so hazardous or invasive, why haven't they invented new ones? I mean, for the last two decades or so I've heard how women are as capable at inventing things as men. How can something like new and improved forms of female contraception not be totally up womens' inventive alley?

[Subarugirl]

@Screamsgutter they have but men won’t take them

[Screamsgutter]

Vasalgel is still undergoing animal and safety trials, therefore isn't available yet. Another one that went to trials caused liver damage in some instances. There are some more they were attempting but the finalized versions never seem to come into existence.

[jamartheg]

Abortion is abortion idc about it

[Justneedtokno]

But it is something dealing with health.

[msc545]

So is eating granola.

[Justneedtokno]

Yeah but you don’t potentially die from granola unless you choke on it abortions sometimes are for the health of the person to. If you study there’s a bunch of things that can cause fatal births to parent and child

[msc545]

What is the maternal death rate from abortions? For babies, it is 100%.

[Justneedtokno]

Not actually there’s a percentage where the mom gives up her life or she writes that down in order to save her child just recently in the news there was a mother that lost her life the child live the father is taking care of the child on his own also at fault the hospital for not listening to her pain but

[msc545]

So you don't know but keep talking about it as if it were a common thing or?

[Justneedtokno]

Yes sure I can go look up the statistics but you ask is if none of these things never happen for them not to be a statistic in the first place. It is still in reason a health situation not all

[msc545]

what percentage?

[Justneedtokno]

And yet you don’t acknowledge any of the other things that I’ve stated

[Justneedtokno]

In 2020, 861 women were identified as having died of maternal causes in the United States, compared with 754 in 2019 (3). The maternal mortality rate for 2020 was 23.8 deaths per 100,000 live births compared with a rate of 20.1 in 2019 (Table). Feb 23, 2022

[Jamie05rhs]

Correct.