he said this about Russia "When peace returns to European soil, we must together never give in to temptation, neither to humiliation, nor to the spirit of revenge"
Do you agree with President Macron's statements regarding what is happening in Ukraine?
Well, without seeing the context in which the statement was made, it is a bit hard to judge. However, certainly as an objective matter, by itself, President Macron's statement is prudent and not unrelated to history.
The obvious example being post-WWI Germany. With Germany defeated and on its' knees, the various states of Europe - not unreasonably including France - sought to punish the Germans and see to it that it never rose again. Partly this was in the spirit of vitriol and vengeance and took no account of the impact the defeat had on German society. The net result being the chaos of the Weimar Republic and the subsequent rise of the National Socialist Workers Party and the Third Reich.
Of course, that is something of an oversimplification and hence the caveat above regarding the context of President Macron's remarks. In one sense he is correct. Emotion must not overcome calculation.
The purpose of foreign policy is as Lord Palmerston declared, "We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." What some of the Allied governments lost sight of was that the national interest is not defined by emotional reactions to enemy states, but rather by a cold calculation of how those states may fit into the national interest going forward.
Germany was punished by France and the other Allied powers - with an interesting exception, more about which anon. This weakened Germany but left a gaping strategic hole in the center of Europe that then became a contested zone between the Western allies and the USSR as it grew stronger.
Moreover, as Germany's natural capacities were still in place, its inherent strengths facilitated its reemergence as a great power, thus forcing France to contend with a continent in chaos. The Soviets seeking to expand their influence, the Germans seeking revenge in order to reassert their position as a great power. Italy, feeling it had not been treated fairly as one of the victorious powers, began to seek new allies, and the UK inclined to stand aside as this strategic picture played out.
Had the West treated Germany more humanely at the end of the war and sought more of a compromise peace, it might - and to be fair, this is only a MIGHT - have facilitated a Franco-German-Italian rapprochement that might have held the USSR in check, maintained the balance of power and preserved the peace.
Interestingly, though, the United States represented the opposite extreme. It sought, under President Wilson, to pursue Utopia. To replace the world of realpolitik with a world based on international law, collective security and a "parliament of man," (i. e. the League of Nations.)
This was not the world as it was either. The USA sought not revenge nor the humiliation of Germany, but by attempting to create an international order based not on power calculations, but rather on abstract justice, it facilitated a facade behind which great power ambitions remained, yet prohibited the explicit resistance to such ambitions. It was the worst of all possible worlds and set the stage for Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy to pursue their goals and thus led to the war that the USA had sought, in effect, to make impossible by reshaping the global order.
Thus, Macron is right if he means that in the international order that emotion must be avoided in international relations to the greatest extent possible. Wrong if he means that power calculations and the balance of power must be set aside in the pursuit of altruism and abstract justice.
In the case of Russia, she must be hemmed in, but there must be an "off ramp" to allow it to extricate itself from Ukraine. This is a morally unsatisfying end, but the international arena is about power, not principle, as man is imperfect and imperfectible.
Hi, it was during a speech in Strasbourg yesterday I can't put all the speech for obvious reasons but here is what he said concerning this particular subject.
"Tomorrow we will have a peace to build, let's never forget that. We will have to do it with Ukraine and Russia around the table (...) But that will not be done in negation, nor in exclusion of one another, nor even in humiliation"
"when peace returns to European soil, we will have to build new security balances" without "ever yielding to the temptation of either humiliation or the spirit of revenge".
"Because they have already ravaged the paths of peace too much in the past", he added, drawing the parallel with the Treaty of Versailles concluded after the First World War, marked by the "humiliation" of Germany.
Have to say, it sounds like he was very on point to me. Very much in the tradition of European realpolitik, couched - of course - in a humanitarian language.
In this, I might add, Macron is being very wise in contrast to some American politicians who are turning the Ukraine war into a sort of moral crusade and who speak of giving Putin "no off ramp" and of bringing him down.
To be sure, if the opportunity were to present itself, don't miss the opportunity. However, the nature of the war and of the Putin regime makes that highly unlikely. Macron seems to be thinking beyond tomorrow. Something that some American politicians seem not to be doing.
Despite the fact that he is right on this subject, Macron remains a rather strange president for me. Macron is not patriotic and I'm sure he dreams of being a kind of European George Washington.
Well, you know President Macron better than I do. However, forget not that part of DeGualle's approach to Europe was to pull Germany into it and thus piggy back French military power and diplomatic influence on German economic power. (This is why France wanted the euro and Germany did not. For France, the euro gave France a say and diplomatic influence over German economic policy.)
That said, I understand what you are saying and my own instincts would be the same as yours'. I would not be a fan of a united Europe into which my country would be subsumed. That said, Macron may be more patriotic than he appears. That does not mean his policy is not misguided, merely that he is attempting what DeGualle did after WWII.
As to President Biden's views. It is hard to say. There is a line from a play that perfectly describes President Biden: "I'm a man of no convictions... at least I think I am."
Mr. Biden does not appear to believe anything to deeply and his knowledge of history seems to be exceptionally limited. However, in the vacuum he leaves behind, it will tend to be filled by those who have more defined views and as the USA is, to start, a creedal nation, the tendency to "ideologize" foreign policy is in-built.
See also Woodrow Wilson, above. He turned a war that had begun for reasons of realpolitik and turned it into an ideological contest at the peace. With disastrous results, setting the stage for another - and this time ideological - world war.
You are surely right about Macron, after all, like many former presidents, he must consider that Europe is for France his "Archimedean lever".
But I prefer deGaulle's Europe of 6, De Gaulle said that the Europe of 6 would be politically led by France and that it would allow it to regain the rank it had lost at Waterloo, that is to say that of the first of the world. Although in the end this Europe did not take the direction it wanted.
For Biden I am surprised, I had no negative or positive opinion on him but despite everything he seemed to me to be an old politician who knew how to base these judgments on realpolitik rather than on ideological considerations.
I even seemed to have understood that he wanted to try to get closer to Russia, of course before the war in Ukraine.
. what he's saying Putin is getting down to his last few boxes of Cracker Jack any little thing can set him off the elections will be coming up and I'm sure Putin will be fired impeached whatever laid off which he should his poor kids are going to have to change their name his wife can't never go any place anymore Putin is totally embarrassed because everything he planned it backfired I'm sure that Russia is printing money like Mad Men so they could buy more ammunition restock but if the food runs out of Cracker Jacks did you push that button very well and once that button is pushed there's no taking it back I'll buttons it's going to be pushed
Words….. but watch how fast they return to buy oil and gas from Russia. Because we aren’t producing it. For a few years we actually produced a surplus of oil and gas selling natural gas to Germans and France. Then the current administration shuts that off so here we all are begging opec to produce more (by the way) Russia is part of opec so there.
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Anonymous
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he's right. France has learned the lesson of humiliating Germany after ww1 which resulted in the occupation of France and signing the surrender of France during ww2 in the same railway carriage the Germans did in ww1.
I do agree with that statement. The Versailles Treaty was a major cause of World War 2. To some extent, at least from the Russian leadership's perspective, history has repeated itself. There is truth in what Putin says about NATO encroachment. The Soviets were told that NATO would not expand to eastern Europe. I don't believe that NATO is at all hostile, but Russian perceptions are obviously different. In truth, NATO has never treated Russia like a potential partner. That doesn't excuse Russia for starting the Ukrainian war, but it does help to explain the origins of the war. Especially in the minds of Russian leadership. Peace must be founded on mutual respect. Countries, like individuals, need to listen to one another and engage with one another in order to maintain peace. The effort must be made. Macron is correct.
Nah I am all about revenge. If we didn't do that hitler wouldn't of been stopped. Spirit of revenge is one of the most important motivations to a war. You see your city your hometown get invaded and you then do a full 180 like Russia, storm right into Germany to take out those Nazi's.
Yes reading the quote I would agree because Europe can't ignore Russia and stepping on it could cause Europe huge problems. History has already shown that it's nit good making this mistake and probably even worse doing it twice because one can argue that the current war is a consequence of that mistake that had been done after the collapse of socialistic governments at the end of the last century.
Trump let Putin NOT do what Putin has been wanting to do for decades saw, and was planning to do when Hillary won? Do you even hear yourself? The only person Putin feared was Trump. He has open contempt for Biden and Hillary would have let him have his way.
He's stressing the need for European people not to hold grudges against each one side of the conflict in Ukraine, i. e., the NATO/pro-NATO side and the Russian/pro-Russian side.
But I doubt that the low IQ Brits and Eastern Europeans want to hear his message.
While it's true what he says, this isn't the best time to say it. Let Russia withdraw from Ukraine and make good the damage they caused, then Macron can be magnanimous. He really has no clue how to deal with someone like Putin.
He seems to be more Petain than de Gaulle. And I didn't like either of them.
yes, he's thinking ahead. we got big problems. huge problems. as other countries move to nato... ones that go "kaboom" in your country, not someone elses...
Honestly I'm just speechless that an event like this is happening within my time, I don't know what to make of this but hopefully peace does follow and responsible parties are punished
For me, once the war is over, we must start to normalize relationships between countries again. Crushing russian people even once it's over will just make Putin look like a savior, and show he was right.
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He’s basically nothing but a punching bag you must defend the country they should go into Russia and attack the government only and bomb their headquarters
Putin definitely needs to be replaced... and Russias government needs an overhaul but otherwise yeah no revenge except against any soldiers who partook in rapes or murder
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