The preamble to the constitution begins with “We the People of the United States,” but it that truly the way it is?

[KelleyNice]

The Constitution of the United States

Do the representatives serve the people or do they rule the people? It appears to be inverted; that the people don’t rule the government but that the government rules the people. The people can vote, but does the vote matter when the media is owned by so few and, when after every election, whether democrat or republican, the people have fewer freedoms and the government gains more power and control?

[RavVid]

KelleyNice, you have it about right and I would say the same here in Australia. In fact it holds widely I believe.

What is important is not the differences between the major parties but what in common. What is bipartisan. The media builds up the differences but seldom what is in common.

What is bipartisan is critical. I don't need much of a crystal ball to forecast either Democrats or Republican will win most of the races in the US. Or that either Liberals or Labor will win most elections in Australia.

No matter how you vote you will still end up endorsing/voting for what is bipartisan. And that might be strongly against your interests.

This is the reason why & how - as you observe - representatives rule the people and the screws just keep getting tighter.

[RavVid]

Kellynice I am glad you liked my comment because I find most people don't grasp it. Invariably even the most intelligent come back with "but we can vote them out". Well if you have only a choice of two parties and there is a lot of bipartisan policy you simply can't effectively vote against it. We need negative votes and politicians are not going to allow that any time soon.

[KelleyNice]

@RavVid Those in control of the country never willingly give us any of their power and control.

[RavVid]

Yes. In 1848 all the crowned heads in Europe fell. One of the demands was for universal male and female franchise. Universal female franchise was the first demand to be thrown out the window followed by universal male franchise. Property qualifications were set in place.

Today we mostly have an appearance of democracy.

My own country Australia is a lot worse than the US because we have compulsory voting. Which means it is compulsory to vote for bipartisan policies that have disadvantaged me and a lot of others. We have two major parties as you do that are called Liberal and Labor. Collectively known as the Laberials and at least there is some recognition they are Tweedle dum and Tweedle dee.

I am on a rant but it is very nice to have met someone who has a good grip on political reality. If you would like to talk further I would be very happy too.

Cheers

[RealMarek]

It’s the iron law of oligarchy: The organized minority always rules over the disorganized masses. The more democratic a system is formally (in our case, the direct election of senators, the diminishment of states’ rights, lowering the voting age to 18, etc. apply), the easier it becomes for an oligarchy to infest the institutions that wield power.

[KelleyNice]

@RealMarek An oligarchy is never willing to give up any power and control. It must be taken from them and that is becoming more and more difficult. Without a revolution, it may be impossible and, more often than not, after a revolution those that gain power are not an improvement.

[RealMarek]

You are correct. The type of oligarchy we have is a clerical oligarchy, or oligarchy of experts. This type tends to slowly decline and grind into dysfunction. This is what we are seeing. Nothing lasts forever. No amount of tech, surveillance, oppression, or utopian scheming will prevent them from being cleared out eventually.

[abc3643]

We've been hearing this for 250 years.
Yet, the Republic still stands and is the oldest democracy on Earth.

You need to understand:
You do NOT live in a true democracy.
You live in a federal republic.

What does that mean?

1) First, in a republic, the legislative body consists of people who are elected who speak for others.
While, often, they represent the people "back home", they also have the awesome responsibility of doing what is best for the country. Many take that seriously, but many do not because "all politics is local" meaning you have to appease the folks back home to get elected. Still, there is a balance between what is in the best interests of the people back home and what is best for the country overall.

Which is a major reason why...

2) You live in a federation.

From the OED:
Federation
1. A group of states with a central government but independence in internal affairs.
2. An organization or group within which smaller divisions have some degree of internal autonomy.
3. The action of forming states or organizations into a single group with centralized control.

So, yes, the central government rules... and it should.
History shows again and again how weak forms of government such as confederations - as in the Confederate States of America or as in the US under the Articles of Confederation - fail.
Why do they fail?
Because they ALWAYS fail... It's not a question of if there is going to be an internal squabble that ends the confederation, but when. Because there is no cohesion, no final say, no power-behind-the-words, those weak forms of government fail. Furthermore, they do not adequately decisively act when necessary. It's one reason why the South lost the Civil War.

Federations are best for large countries with large populations and the US exemplifies that.

Do you know what else exemplifies that?

>>> YOU DO.

You are a federation of cells in the different organs throughout your body.
Nerves are the representatives that tell the central government - the brain - what is going on with them.
And, similarly, the brain hands down various signals to keep everything running.
At the same time, there is definitely some local control... reflexes are an example of that... Your brain does think and give orders when reflexes are involved and that's needed and important because, otherwise, that might take too much time and you'd get killed or hurt.


OK, now, on final point...
Yes, in ANY society, you give up some freedoms so the society can protect you.
In the US, states give up some of their "freedoms" so get the overall protection from all the other states via the Federal Government... E Pluribus Unum... One, From Many. That's what it means. That's what United We Stand means.
Similarly, the people do the same thing with their relationship with each other via their state governments and the federal government.
It is this way for the past 12,000 or so years.

If you want complete freedom, then you need to live in complete anarchy... in which case, you are on your own.

Every single person who has ever lived or will live needs to remember these two things:

1. If you go to war against the world, you will lose.

2. You live at the mercy of everyone else. If you piss us off enough, we'll kill you. It's just that simple.

So, if you want freedom from fear of getting killed, then you need to get together with other like-minded persons and pledge allegiance to each other which means giving up other freedoms to keep the group intact.

That's exactly what government and citizenship is.

It's why you are alive and safe.

[KelleyNice]

That can be said about democracies since the average life of a democracy is about 200 years. Dictatorships last longer.

“A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse doe to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship.” Alexander Tyler, Scottish History Professor at the University of Edinburgh

[abc3643]

Yeah, but he's dead and English and they lost the revolution so what do they know?
;)

Dictatorships do NOT last longer because humans don't last that long.
And, it's always just a matter of time what I wrote earlier...
>>> If you go to war against the world, you will lose.
>>> You live at the mercy of everyone else. If you piss us off enough, we'll kill you. It's just that simple.

Ask Czar Nicholas and his family.
Ask Nicolae Ceaușescu about his 1989 Christmas present.
Ask Saddam Hussein.
Ask Muammar Qaddafi.
Another example: In your lifetime - not mine - you will see Korea unified. It's just a matter of time before the NK regime is taken-out from within (and with assistance from the outside world).

[KelleyNice]

I hope you are right about North Korea. If there was just one thing I could wish for, it would be that North Koreans could be freed from that evil dictator and his family.

[DaveJord]

So as far at the specifics of the preamble goes its all pretty accurate and has nothing to do with people freedoms or rights. Even the courts will not interpret the preamble in a way that would ensure any greater rights or liberties other than those specifically state within the full text of the Constitution itself.

So what most people fail to realize about the founding of our country, which is a point many FAIL to grasp today is that its not a Democracy and actually it is less Democratic than anything else. In a true Democracy 51% major would always win... this very concept of government terrified the Founding Fathers. Because the Founding Fathers who stoked the fires of revolution feared above all other things a mass redistribution of wealth with the colonies falling into a status of mob rule, much like what happened in France after their Revolution. The wealthy were drug out into the streets and guillotined, and their assets were seized by the state.

Above all other things please remember that the Founding Fathers were wealthy land owning gentry of the of old English estate that believed in the aristocratical mandate to govern. So the very concept of Democracy were pretty immediately thrown out the window, and rebranded in a way that would allow most of the uneducated masses to accept what they were given in the name of Democracy.

The main goal and stated purpose of the more perfect union was to ensure individual freedoms of the people, while at the same time protecting the rights of minorities against those of the majority. And here in lays our problem today because in todays America people think MAJORITY means WHITE people and MINORITY means anything other than white people. This could not be a more incorrect interpretation of the meaning and it is the root of all evils in todays world... due to the ensuing culture war and race baiting done by BOTH sides.

The truth is that to the Founding Father at the time minorities were not blacks. The minority was the wealthy land owning gentry, and the majority was the uneducated masses, white, black , brown and what ever else. So the Founding Fathers set up a form of government that would ensure that the wealthy, educated and land owning gentry would be able to remain in control of. Which honestly they have remained in control of from the very start.

It all started with the nomination process and primaries and ended with the electoral college. The nomination process and primaries allow party bosses to control who will even become a candidate, before the people even start to vote and the party system ensures that the right candidate gets the money it needs to win. So from tax law to trade policy it all slants to the benefit of the minority... which is the WEALTHY not black or white people.

For as long as these wealthy people of interest can keep the white and black people arguing over stupid perceived social injustice nothing will be accomplished because its supposed to be divisive. Because if they could not divide us so easily, then we might actual come together.

Even Thomas Jefferson said that the;

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

Which if you look at the Capital Hill Insurrection, you see that will and desire is there... but it failed because it was corrupted and flawed from the start in purpose and focus. But do the day is coming in which the congress better take notice of the needs of the people and quit pandering to corporate and special interests.

[BCA6010]

In theory, people running for district representative would announce/publish their platform and where they stand on major issues so that the most popular platform in the district wins. While in office, the representative receives feedback through an office that they set up somewhere in their district and will vote on issues in accordance to what's best for their district, and damn the rest.

In reality, campaigning is largely a contest of smearing, name recognition, and fundraising because ultimately the party is who drives the issues, especially with the Democrats. On the other hand there's an abundance of Republicans who get into office and then just sit there enriching themselves while barely acknowledging their own district, or worse, gaslighting their own district into believing that something terrible is going to benefit them. Out of the hundreds of congressmen in the legislature, *maybe a dozen of them could be considered household names, and the vast majority of Americans couldn't even name or recognize their own congressman.

[JustiReno]

People vote for this, it’s who they are. You wanna talk about an “elite conspiracy”? Where is western civilization without this “elite cabal”? There is at least 100,000 competing conspiracies going on at any time, seriously. Obama made changes in the CFR but who has these skills? Who are you going to have run your military or intelligence service besides the people who know how to do it already? We can’t make farmers doctors like Chinese communists. I think one thing we can do in this country is stop our violence. We do a lot of violence overseas, lots of CIA vets will tell you this produces blowback. And then our money, smarter people than me need to come up with a solution for this, but the way our economy works ain’t gonna work much longer, Russia is actually gonna win and Europe and America will lose because of it. If china invades Taiwan in 5 - 10 years shit could go so south

[SaidNobodyEver]

Yeah the government does it’s job wrong. That’s why so many people are unhappy and the media directs our attention to one another so we split into teams and argue about it instead of holding those with power accountable for their negligence. There’s no repercussions to misrepresenting your constituents because the media protects the people they are supposed to keep in line.

[crmoore]

As it stands now, they rule the people. It's not how it's supposed to be.

[KelleyNice]

If true and I believe it is, it is almost impossible change because whenever a group has power, they are not willing to give it up.

[crmoore]

Exactly. And it's going to only get easier and easier to keep control with technological progression like drones, facial recognition, the ability to see through walls (yes, in a way that's a thing, look up "wifi seeing through walls), and being able to track people's devices not only in the real world but also online.

The people should have never given that power and that control to the government. Hopefully it isn't too late.

[KelleyNice]

@crmoore And, there are some very smart people that support it. I don't know if they support it because they believe in it or if it is because the see it coming and want to be one of the chosen ones.

[exitseven]

It seems like a different country ever since Obama became president. Politicians were always crooks but now they do not even bother to hide it.

[JustiReno]

Since Obama became president didn’t you live through LBJ and Nixon? BUSH!!! They killed the F-in president and demolished those damn towers, look what Obama did to the CFR and Libya is Obama fault not Hillary he was president, but yeah he Kenyan tho!

[exitseven]

@JustiReno I remember Nixon a little. The country just seemed to be a different place. It was not so divided. Even the Bushes and Regan there was not the vitriol we have in the government.

[jimmy2]

You will find in November a revolt at the midterms. What will happen is a about face from Democrats to Republicans. Republicans will take the House and Sente but Biden will come out and Harris. Lame duck

[Adaeva]

I don't know who "We the People" are, but I'm not included because I wasn't asked.

[Pterodon]

The democrats believe the government rules the people and believe in big government. The Republicans believe the people rule the government and small government

[peedy]

It is the way the law is written but people don't follow the law they tend to bend and break it lawyer twist and manipulate it
But it the end they can't get around it

[humanearth]

For a young lady, you sure know what's going on

I'm glad your woke

[globetrotter22]

She’s “woke” in the right way.

[DWornock]

It has never been "We the People." It has always been "We the rulers" and now even more than when it was written.

[IsoUser]

I think that in the United States democracy is ever changing and forming new laws, just my humble opinion anyway.

[Anonymous]

It’s supposed to mean us not the government but unfortunately it seems as if it’s the other way around, problem is we have to vote out the ones in government that are not for the people

[OddBeMe]

Seems like when we get off our asses and make a stink about the shit we dont like, things change.

[Open2It]

It's been inverted because 'We the people' let it happen...

[Exterminatore]

Some good questions you asked.

[baserunner611]

Democracy is slow but it the best way

[PatriceONeal]

Depends if you vote red or blue