I’m not looking for knee jerk politicking hustling baiting or cheap shots. I’m looking for thoughtful and reflective responses with the integrity to acknowledge that the way these matters are currently being handled could be improved upon. As always flames and personal attacks will be taken down. Let’s have a clean debate and hopefully all learn something. Good luck!
At a very basic level, separating people and tellig them that they are A and the others are B is a textbook approach on how to make people dislike one another. Exemplified in for example The Stanford Prison Experiment. Morally, ethically, racial segregation is fundamentally wrong.
At a realistic and practical level competence is linked to specialisation and a narrowly focused group can reach a higher level of expertise. There are real and relevant challenges and opportunities unique to black people in academia which does result in a group such as this holding high potential value. It can be practically useful.
Personally I always believe the principle should be considered first. While I am certainly not going to accuse a student club for racism in the world in terms of its contriubtion it likely contributes more bad than good. Not due to any activity of theirs but the principle behind them.
Lastly to consider our society at large segregating groups is a common phenomena in nearly every area. A successful example is in store prices. A coupon to get 3 for the price of 2 is segregation and one we all know exist but care little for. It is afforded equally to all yet by its own nature only used by some. And yes, this is why they're so impractical that few people have the patience to use them. Even the mild social stigma is intended.
While I do not have a direct solution my suggestion is still to mimic that. Segregate based on what the member gets out of it, not based on who can join but who benefits from and would want to join. I think that is the most elegant way of acknowledging the correct ethics while also allowing the practicality of a specialised organisation.
And if it wasn't clear enough I simply believe racial segregation should be many generations removed from anyone who is in school now. No reason to go back to it.
m such decisions should not be determined by one solely factor...
what if the institution A is racially exclusive
but the institution B is racially exclusive and racist in intention and purpose
we should not go simplistic on the complicated and complex issues
I don’t mean between institutions I mean within one institution. I am questioning the integrity and moral consistency of one institution in particular.
Specifically a large public high school
the same answer applies... just change the word -institution- for -club-
and the argument remains the same... the moral and integrity of both and all clubs should not be decided on just one factor... all of the other factos and principles should be considered as well
What I was hoping for in people’s answers was that they either support cherry picking which clubs get to be racist or they don’t think any school sanctioned clubs should be allowed to be racist. What did I ask incorrectly that didn’t lead you one of those directions?
well... you used the word racially...
racially does not mean racist, not per se... not by definition
This is the same lack of full understanding of what it means.
Just like historically black colleges.
Black student union was developed to help black people get a sense of being, and have a way to safely discuss struggles of being black in an mostly white campus.
But that's not the question. Almost all black student unions will allow nonblack members in. Sadly very few white students try to join, and the few that do usually do it in hopes of being turned down, or to cause problems after joining
But surely you can understand the logical inconsistency of the only place were segregation being legal is here. We’ve come full circle from where segregation against black people used to be legal to where now the only legal form of segregation favors black people here. I don’t think segregation should be legal for or against anybody, but for some reason in this instance it is. You are correct that there was a point where there was a need for historically black colleges and universities, however now that times have changed legislatively, wouldn’t it make more sense to highlight common humanity instead of forcing reminders of the past? It doesn’t seem very progressive to keep pushing a narrative of government sponsored segregation, that’s all.
But it's not segragated. Because it has the word black, hispanic or any other word in it doesn't mean those are the only one allowed.
Anyone is welcome white people choose to not join because it has the word black in it.
And black student unions are not the only one.
There are several ones for religion, and other races and sexual orientation. These are a way to give emotional supports for people who need them and discuss ways to help over come them.
The real question is, why is it we are so obessed over that everything we do or any support we get causes outrage?
It is so hard wired in people's minds that black people should never get support, that the moment we are mentioned it is a huge explosion of outrage.
I mean we ask for our history to be part of school, we could only get a separate month. But when we are asking again for it to be added to the curriculum, the news tries it's best to convince everyone it is not what we want, and we are trying to make white people look evil, and create hate.
Nobody takes time to reverse the role.
How would you as a white person feel if American history was about all the things black people accomplished, and 3 weeks a year a tiny piece of white history was taught, but excluded 90% of true history, and 90% of Americans have 0 clue as to what white people really did for this country.
The trend in modern education, at least in the humanities but it seems more systemic than that, seems to be to downplay white male accomplishment in favor of anybody who does not fit that description. For example, I had a meeting with the teacher who is hosting me for student teaching yesterday, and one of the takeaways was that every book purchase has to be social justice approved by a director created for that purpose. Arguably that is an effort in support of not only black people, but anyone who is not white or male or cis or het.
What news is trying to make it seem like black people are trying to make white people look evil? It’s been…a while since I’ve consumed mass market government propaganda voluntarily so that might actually be a fair criticism, I don’t have the means to agree or disagree.
Would you join a southern white heritage club? They might allow you to, but would there be meaningful gain in awkwardly and forcefully pushing yourself into a space which has as its only reason to exist that the people who created it are different from you and coalesced around maintaining that difference?
White is the only racial identity which does not get a month. Going back to logical consistency and fairness, how is that defensible? Punishing white people in the future for things they weren’t even born for is not going to change the past, nor will picking at old wounds promote future healing. Quite the opposite, in fact. I still think common interests like anime or theater or sports clubs would do more to promote voluntary association and healing than clubs which highlight differences. This of course assumes that the objective isn’t artificially dividing people, which it very well might be.
I’m not calling for the black student union to go away, I’m just calling out the logically inconsistent hypocrisy of a black group, which should understand the pain and animosity of segregation is embracing it. If anything, I’m calling for a hypothetical equally resourced staffed and housed organization for other groups. Do you support the right of the aforementioned southern white heritage group to exist? What about a German heritage group? My grandfather on my mother’s side was brought here when his family fled Berlin in 1939. As we both know, neither of those would ever happen in modern education. That is the logical inconsistency I am referring to.
White people do not have one because American history is white history
All other races are kept out, or written about as just an tool to help white people ot an excuse for the invasions. The entire history is white, and it was wanted to keep it white.
White people chose to give non white people a separate month to keep non white history out of history.
There is clear history showing how black history month was not the original request. It was all the black history they were willing to allow.
The original request was to include our history in schools.
They refused and said we will give you separate history because we do not want to include black American history in American history.
It was the best we could get.
And how is it picking at old wounds.
All we want is represention.
The honesty of how america has been shaped to current day.
The real problem is that most black history does not paint a good picture of how white people acted back then, so it makes most white people ashamed and want to hide it
But the problem is there are 2 versions of American history.
But we should teach it to avoid same mistakes, but instead American are so sensitive that anything that shows america as bad needs to be hidden.
Perfect example.
9/11 hundreds of people died. Slogan "never forget"
Why because it makes sure we don't let our guard down and how great we were to step up in a time of need.
Slavery, and the 400 years that followed of lynchings bombings of our own cities to stop successful black people from thriving. To laws in place to keep black people slaves without calling them slaves.
Response " get over it, or don't bring up old wounds"
The problem isn't stirring up old wounds. It's the denial or hiding these things existence.
Why because many white have no clue that after slavery we were still treated like slaves up to the 1970's but we do know it.
This is what the real arguments and anger is about
That fact that you are able to talk about "Black" issues speaks volumes.. "Black" people aren't the only ones even in America or the West who was been subjugated and discriminated against.. When the Irish first came it was them, the Italians, the Japanese, and the Jews most of all.. In Malaysia the Chinese are exclusively actually being held back, yet still finds a way to Excell and be better than most Malaysians... In their own system.. TBH "Black" Americans have had some of the best progression from the shackles our ancestors came in.. I don't believe in the conspiracy theory of anybody holding our history back and separate from "White" history anymore.. There's no real evidence for it, and a lot of it is just made up to keep "Black" people feeling bitter towards "White", even though most people had great great grandparents who came to America with nothing but the clothes on their backs..
@JDavid25 and yet we can look and see all examples you have shown did not get enslaved, did not after 400 years after being freed have laws in place to keep them as slaves without call them slaves.
Most them very clearly lasted a few decades Of facing discrimination.
And i am very aware of how the American mafia was created and the largest lynching in American history was against italians and the whole irish conflict.
But evidence is very clear that history has been created to hide atrocities committed by America.
And it is also very clear documented evidence that black history month only existed to keep black history out of American history.
Why was it not added to the American history curriculum when asked for it if it wasn't to keep it segregated?
And to compare something from other countries with different laws is a deflection. This isn't about bashing America or saying its horrible, it's about why more American history should be taught. Instead of sugar coating it so we can pretend it was all beautiful when it wasn't.
It's why the anger is there. When half country says it was easy and no conflict and the other half goes there was major issues that has shaped America to this day.
The history missing is very crucial to the shape of current america. Without it, we have no clue as to how to come together
I don’t make a point of watching Fox or CNN, but thank you for talking about both sides of the issue.
Is there actually a concerted effort to suppress black history at the institutional level in your school or Ed system? If there is you have my support as a future educator to fix it. I’m just not seeing it, however. At the institutional level there is a concerted effort from what I can see to downplay white or male achievement in an effort to advance anyone that is not either of those. I live in Susan B Anthony’s home base city, and the amount of anti-male sentiment is intense. Nobody wants to talk about her anti black racism, however. Oddly enough as it was also Frederick Douglass’s base of operations, there is a lot of abolition history here too. There does not seem to be so much racial tension as there is gender tension. Douglass fought and won legitimate equality, not superiority or a quick buck which seems to be what Sharpton and his group are hustling for, often at the expense of the black people who can least afford it. Booker T Washington warned against the race hustler phenomenon, but people are still paying good money into it in every race. I wonder how many community centers or programs the billions that Sharpton and Jackson and similar race baiting hustlers have taken from black people could have funded if they didn’t just keep it?
Would you join the hypothetical white southern heritage club or the German heritage club or not?
I believe 90% of America maybe even higher percentage is not racist. But even many of the nonracist have serious argument about race because there are a lack of true understanding of it.
Higher learning will go deeper into it but i do believe at high and middle school there needs to be more education towards it.
And i have not seen your point as for under playing white male achievements in school history. But I'm not a white male, and it may not be as noticeable to me for that reason. So i may miss it and understand how fully it impacts white males what is said in society towards white people especially white male.
Just like i think the way white privilege is discussed is poorly done and it comes out as if white people are just given some easy life.
It wasn't at all meant to be that way, but it seems to now be used as an insult instead of a discussion point.
As for joining a group like that. If i was invited by a friend because they thought it might benefit me. Tbh i would try it out, and see how it fits and make a decision based off that.
I don't look at white people differently for not wanting to join, but the point is if they want to for the right reasons it is there.
As an outsider it has a very black panthers/nation of Islam kind of feel to it, presumably the same as the neo confederate or neo Nazi connotations that the groups I mentioned must surely have to outsiders.
I have no problem talking about the achievements and accomplishments of others. I’m putting together a unit on the Cherokee Syllabary for example. What I don’t have time for is the attacks on my identity and the othering and punishment for things that happened before I was even born. The real enemy is the elites, not each-other, despite how much propaganda there is to the contrary.
I’ll be very interested in finding out if this group has to let people who aren’t black join, and will update once I have something to report.
Yup. I wouldn't discuss with anyone about race on here except you.
Because you are reasonable.
But on another subject today might have been my favorite class so far.
My elementary methods class, we had to put a classroom management plan and then participate in the games.
I never laughed so hard and had so much fun
The first real settlement was in Jamestown in 1607.. And the first slaves in the colonies were "White" English prisoners who were basically forced to til the harsh grounds of Virginia til they died.. So I don't know how the 400 years timeline goes.. And well they all came from terrible conditions.. The situation at the time in Ireland was so bad, that even "Black" American slaves were said to be living better than them before they came to America.. As horrible as slavery was.. The Jews had been kinda hated in Germany for centuries, and they thrived.. Same with the Chinese.. Slavery was a regularly institution around the world at the time..
And if that were the case then everything that happened to "Black" America wouldn't be out and about.. I don't think anybody is hiding atrocities, as every country is guilty of them.. It's human nature..
I don't think there's clear evidence of that, as slavery is in the history books, and a lot of "Black" historical figures are widely known and looked up to.. "Black" American history is definitely seen as apart of American history.. Especially since it's in the books.
It's not deflecting, it's pointing out, how limited peoples view of the world is.. I think Everybody is fully aware that America doesn't have a squeaky clean history.. It's not hidden, and its conspiracy theory to think so..
And our current America? You're probably living a very comfortable life, not having to worry about most neccesities, and probably thinking about your future whether it be a career, or life with a family.. It's pretty sure racism, or slavery, or anything emotionally charged current topic is on your mind.
I respect and appreciate your willingness to engage in difficult topics. That takes a lot of courage to do these days.
I’m happy to see that you are having a good time in school, that makes it not only go by quicker but you tend to get more out of it that way.
@Sixgunsound thanks. How long until you fully graduate?
Too long. Even after student teaching I have done online short classes to get knocked out. Early next year. I’m in the home stretch.
As a leftie I'd have to disagree with the concept of racially exclusive clubs. If the purpose of a union is to fight for the rights of it's members then logically you're going to end up with a different set of rights for each race.
And who's paying for these resources? If it's via tax then surely all students should have access according to need and not skin colour. If the main union can't meet the needs of all students, black and white, then it's not fit for purpose.
Almost everything in public schools is tax funded. Occasionally, US schools decide they haven’t taken enough out of residents paychecks in their district so they make sometimes single digit old children sell cheap shyte from China door-to-door in order to get more money. This then goes into a general fund that gives adults more opportunity for waste, abuse, and embezzlement that caused them to be short in the first place.
My solution was to promote common interests clubs and sports and other group activities as a means to increase voluntary association and opportunities to develop friendships between all students instead of clubs or groups which artificially divide students by highlighting differences.
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It speaks more about that fucked up society needing such places to "balance" the equality.
You ever wonder why China, Africa, India and others don't have "White student unions" on sites? It's because their societies aren't as unequal towards minorities.
> China, Africa
> It's because their societies aren't as unequal towards minorities.
How delusional are you? China is currently conducting a genocide. How many high profile politicians and judges are saying they wanna murder all white people in South Africa alone.
China literally has Black people in chains picking cotton today.
Any organisation that has as a limit to membership the melatonin level in the skin isn't "racially exclusive" it's just plain racist.
The idea of one racial background being superior to any other created the second world war. The big problem is most of the world has forgotten that.
You are just looking for folks to agree with your politics. Why do racists complain about other make-believe races who have exclusive clubs and communities when their belief system is founded on the idea?
If races are make-believe then what is the point of everything you have ever posted?
How do you prove to an insane racist that race doesn't exist?
I haven't convinced a single racist yet. Why do continue to be disingenuous? You knew this before you asked.
Stop projecting your racial issues onto me. Seriously man, get help.
If race is an illusion, then isn’t racism also an illusion and randomly blowing up at people has thus been a waste of your life?
Nah, you are just talking psychobabble.
If you believe in race and believe that race dictates behavior and beliefs, nothing I say will convince you otherwise.
It is so hilarious how racists make their choice of beliefs, someone else's problem. I never forced the belief of race on you.
You did that all on your own.
If you don’t believe in the only thing you fixate on, isn’t that internally inconsistent? Which is it?
I fixate on culture. I don't do the race thing to know people. I steer clear of racists.
They aren't my type of folks.
:D
Such a club shouldn't be permitted to officially exist as far as school resources are concerned, but if it is, then yes the school should be required by its own standard to permit other racially-exclusive clubs.
Logical consistency of treating everyone the same would seem to suggest that.
When I was in college, the Black Student Union said anyone could join.
That’s awesome.
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