Why do Anglo-Saxons find it hard to understand French secularism and the way it wants to integrate immigrants?

[Julie4]

[RavVid]

I may not understand French secularism entirely so correct me if that appears to be the case. Australia is an immigrant nation but takes a multicultural approach - a little too much so in my opinion. Nonetheless mostly immigrants do integrate even though the first wave doesn't integrate that much. Everybody wants immigrants to integrate regardless of origin. I don't think France is unique in that respect.

I was joking yesterday it was good to see the third gen Greek Australians (in a particular suburb) could now speak English. That suburb has long been little Athens and even the second generation struggle communicating in English. Melbourne is rated the third largest Greek city in the world. I feel a little sorry for the children as after doing Mom to Fri at the standard schools, they have to go to Greek school on the weekends. It is a bit weird after 50 years in Australia some Greek mommas can't speak English.

But there isn't a problem in letting immigrants integrate at their own pace because they have come to Australia for the western culture and the economic advantages of that. It has also been helpful that we have mostly avoided taking a large numbers from a specific culture/country. The problem is when western culture is rejected.

I do see issues with some cultures. Islam in particular. In a lot of ways it rejects western culture and in doing so forgoes the benefits. So resentment occurs - somewhat illogically - because the benefits derive from what is being rejected. WTF? Even the concept of bank interest is alien. Calls for Sharia law in Australia are offensive.

As one Australian PM put it 'the basic deal is to leave your baggage on the plane'. That doesn't seem to be always honored by some groups.

Similarly there have been problems with gangs of youths with 'African appearance'. It doesn't help that left wing gov'ts have given us a catch and release policy on under 18's. They can do adult destructive things without adult consequences. We have probably washed through this now, but some of those youths in the past had been fighting in adult wars before they came to Australia.

My view is that the very minimum integration required is accepting the laws of the host country and accepting the consequences if you don't. France is entirely right to insist on integration and should enforce integration by enforcing laws which have consequences.

Who is saying France should not by the way? Which Anglo-Saxons?

[Julie4]

For example, in France it is forbidden to wear any religious sign in any public service, for example at school, in a municipal swimming pool, etc. Women are not allowed to wear a headscarf when playing soccer, etc.

The English and Americans have a hard time understanding this. Many Anglo-Saxon newspapers criticize French secularism as discriminatory.

As for immigration, here again our two systems are different, although in reality France has been trying for at least 30 or 40 years to adopt the community system of the English or Americans.

But in its history, France has proceeded as follows: controlled immigration, followed by a demanding assimilation.

Besides, your language is very Anglo-Saxon: you speak of integration, we speak of assimilation, which is different.

If you like, the majority of immigrants in France are integrated in the sense that they have a job, and for the most part respect the law. But assimilation requires more than that.

Assimilation consists in fact that the foreigners who come to France, are imbued with French culture, that they adopt the mores and that they make the history of France their history, and that they give French names to their children. For example, if there were Spanish immigrants, their stories should no longer be Charles V or Franco, but Napoleon, Joan of Arc etc. Here is how he explains himself these foreigners who have become assimilated, The homeland is the land of the fathers. There are fathers according to the flesh and fathers according to the spirit ” “I am what is called an assimilated Jew. As a child, I cried over the misfortunes of France at Waterloo or Sedan, not while listening to the destruction of the Temple. No other flag than the tricolor, no other hymn than La Marseillaise will ever wet my eyes ”, Raymond Aron this is what was before the French system

It requires of the foreigner who abandons it a large part of his culture to adopt that of France.

[RavVid]

I thought I might not have grasped French secularism properly. Secularism would have a far more constrained meaning to me. So thanks for taking the time to explain further.

I can see that left wing Anglo newspapers would be critical as the anglo left wing assaults our culture so it will assault French culture. I'm curious as to what view the French left wing takes.

As I am more to the right I just take the view it is your country and it is for France to set the conditions for immigration and citizenship and that we should mind our own business.

To obtain citizenship is there a test of how assimilated an immigrant is?

[NamerOfStars]

Geography. Their insularism is a natural consequence of how their culture developed. It certainly has its downsides, but there are REASONS they have the oldest government in Europe: they're an innately socially conservative bunch, and change slowly. Remember that while the English were never exposed to Roman... I guess the word would be "innovationism", the British were, and you can see remnants of the different social styles in architectural sites. Obviously, the line between the two doesn't really exist anymore, but tiny fragments of it can still be seen in language, and probably other aspects of culture I'm not close enough to see.

Being an American, and thus coming from a weird fusion of German, English, French, and Irish culture (and a whole bunch of influence from smaller ones, because why not), I've seen even within my own lifetime these things play out in different cultural debates in various parts of western Europe: the French having long and protracted arguments over social issues that the English are too polite to even discuss; the English moving in a creepy kind of cultural unison while the French head off in a hundred directions at once. It shouldn't surprise anyone who looks closely that your art tends to be so much more exciting, if sometimes less relatable.

[KostasKouvalis]

Probably because the French have always historically spread Catholicism. By the way, my art history professor said there is no such thing as an "Anglo-Saxon". They were just Germans who migrated to Britan.

[ProbablyClueless]

Because we see all the news reports of things happening in France and it's rarely pleasant news.

[OddBeMe]

Because Americans have integrated their politics into their identity. And for at least 40% their ID is hating immigrants. They’ll say “no just illegals” but this exact story proves that bullshit.

[gorydetails]

Yeah, it’s difficult to understand why people plan their own destruction.

[disgustingweebtrash]

Would Frankia be Frankia if the Umayyads won the invasion of Gaul?

[Reijen]

Hah, yeah how's that working for the French now.

[msc545]

Right-wing Americans need scapegoats.

[exitseven]

No, democrats create problems that Republicans have to clean up

[msc545]

@exitseven You people clean up nothing. You just spread lies and bullshit.

[exitseven]

@msc545 Is it bullshit that we have thousands of people living in tents on the sidewalk? Is it bullshit that there is twice the crime that there was just 3 short years ago? Is it bullshit that gas is 4 bucks a gallon when it used to be two? Is it bullshit that we cannot buy a house because interest rates are too high? Is it bullshit that everyone's retire ment accounts have gotn backwards in three years? These are all things that can be proven. They dont happen by themselves and blsming Trump for the problems just makes you look pathetic. And dont get me started on covid and the border. Those are not bullshit either.

[msc545]

@exitseven the problems are quite real. Republican support for the rich and corporations created those problems in large part.

[exitseven]

We have always had these problems but they have gotten much worse over the last 3 years.

[msc545]

@exitseven how do you know that?

[exitseven]

Because i am living them. I drive by a tent city on my way to work every day and every day it gets a little bigger, It cost me 116 dollars the last time I filled up my truck. It used to be 60-70 bucks tops, I am deferring retirement because the cost of everything people need to buy has doubled since Biden became president. Also my retirement account is down a bout a hundred grand. It doubled when Trump was in the White House,

[msc545]

@exitseven Blame the Oil companies, not Biden.

[exitseven]

@msc545. Biden blames the guys that own the gas stations for high gas prices. He blames everything on someone else and when he can't do that he blames Trump.